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 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
That's not a problem of grav, that's the fact that biker Marines are extremely versatile/good.

Something has to be good in the marine codex, right?

Wow, I must have missed the 7ed codex?

Didn't realize Dev Cents, Tiggy, TFCs, Stormravens, Rhinos, DPs, and MSU spam had all been removed.

Martel732 wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
That's not a problem of grav, that's the fact that biker Marines are extremely versatile/good.

Something has to be good in the marine codex, right?

Like all of it that's not melee? You mean that part of the Marine book?

Martel732 wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
That's not a problem of grav, that's the fact that biker Marines are extremely versatile/good.

Something has to be good in the marine codex, right?

Im going to assume that was a joke.

Back on the topic of Grav, what if Grav dropped the AP value all together wounds on 3+ always, stays 18" becomes salvo 3/5?

It becomes a high volume wound generator that makes people have to role saves. doesn't step on any other special weapons toes.

It was a joke.

Unfortunately, I think any change from AP 2 puts grav in the "not in my list" category. I want a weapon that can bring the hurt on a Riptide or Dreadknight.

Martel732 wrote:
" like orks or nid swarms"

Fortunately, bikes also have TL bolters.

Aren't bolters pretty bad in firepower?

What would you change grav pistols to then? Salvo 2/3?

Going off your idea mordred what if it is salvo 3/5 ap- but with rending? You still drastically reduced the number of ap2 shots they produce but they can still be effective against MC and the like albeit no where near as much. Then again it might make them even better than they already were and we don't really need that...

Martel732 wrote:
It was a joke.

Unfortunately, I think any change from AP 2 puts grav in the "not in my list" category. I want a weapon that can bring the hurt on a Riptide or Dreadknight.

Why not plasma then? Or a lascannon? or an assault cannon? I think when something is as much an autotake as grav is for you (as it is for many others, not trying to single you out) then something is out of balance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
What would you change grav pistols to then? Salvo 2/3?

Going off your idea mordred what if it is salvo 3/5 ap- but with rending? You still drastically reduced the number of ap2 shots they produce but they can still be effective against MC and the like albeit no where near as much. Then again it might make them even better than they already were and we don't really need that...

Yea, im not sure the rending makes sense fluff wise. Maybe make the target count as moving or being in difficult terrain. good against bikes, skimmers, jump units, riptides and wraithknights.

OR here's a thought:
Salvo 2/3 ap- concussive always wounds on a 3+ AND when an unsaved wound is suffered the unit takes a strength test with a -1 for every point of armor save the model has. If the model fails the test its unit may not move in the following movement, shooting, or assault phase.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

OR here's a thought:
Salvo 2/3 ap- concussive always wounds on a 3+ AND when an unsaved wound is suffered the unit takes a strength test with a -1 for every point of armor save the model has. If the model fails the test its unit may not move in the following movement, shooting, or assault phase.

So, basically a "You can't assault me" gun?

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

OR here's a thought:
Salvo 2/3 ap- concussive always wounds on a 3+ AND when an unsaved wound is suffered the unit takes a strength test with a -1 for every point of armor save the model has. If the model fails the test its unit may not move in the following movement, shooting, or assault phase.

So, basically a "You can't assault me" gun?

Yes?..... heh heh.... Maybe its not that good of an idea.

To the OP.

Grav weaponry is not the be all end all you make it out to be. Maybe back in day when grav guns ignored armour and cover saves against vehicles, but now? Grav guns are an upgrade for centurions, and that is it.

AP2 isn't that prevalent that you ought to need a house rule on it. Besides, what has AP2? Single shot, hi pow stuff that is hit or miss. How many times have my Signum enhanced las cannons missed? Enough for me to say that AP2 is fine the way it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, grav used to ignore invulnerable and cover saves on vehicles, not armour and cover, lol!

Martel732 wrote:
I want a weapon that can bring the hurt on a Riptide or Dreadknight.

Like plasma, melta, lascannons, demolisher cannons, power fists, power axes and all other MC's in the game.

Trust me on the centurion thing, I have a unit of 5 sternies armed with leftover grav weaponry and sometimes, sometimes, they kick butt. Usually though they just look cool and die well.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" like orks or nid swarms"

Fortunately, bikes also have TL bolters.

Aren't bolters pretty bad in firepower?

Yeah, but they are better than grav guns against gaunts and orks.

Here's a thought from a sick fellow who's up in the middle of the night because he can't sleep:

If grav's niche is supposedto be dealing with MCs and heavily-armored targets, why not do something like this:

Wounds non-bulky/non-MCs on a 5+
Wounds bulky on a 4+
Wounds very bulky on a 3+
Wounds MCs on a 2+
And maybe do a little something extra for Gargantuan/colossal threats.

Keep it AP 2. This way, it remains a poor weapon against squishy stuff, is solid but not amazing against expensive units like terminators and bikes, and still keeps its place as an MC-hunting weapon. Still think it could maybe stand to lose a shot.

As an aside, I feel the need to call out whomever it was that said dark eldar have built-in durability with power from pain. It's nicer to have it than not, but the new PFP rules make it very difficult to have any sort of early-game survivability, and he abundance of high-strength threats out there mean my feel no pain is ignored more often than not. And even at its peak, the new PFP still offers less protection than PFP did in the last codex before 6th edition happened. >_> Sorry. </rant>.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I want a weapon that can bring the hurt on a Riptide or Dreadknight.

Like plasma, melta, lascannons, demolisher cannons, power fists, power axes and all other MC's in the game.

Plasma's much worse and not available to the same extent that grav is, melta evenmore so. Lascannons and demolisher cannons are absolutely awful at killing MCs, and anything that requires melee against a unit that can outmove a majority of the units in the game is unreliable at best. Grav is the only weapon in the Space Marine Codex that reliably deals with 2+ save Monstrous Creatures, because it's the only high-volume of fire AP2 that wounds them on 2s that's available.

Seems to me, the need for high-volume AP2 against high-T models is a big part of the problem.

Almost like t6 2+5++ with more than 3 wounds makes things stupid. And Grav is a bandaid.

Perhaps if the 'Tide went to 3+/5++, and the DK went to either AV12 3hp or 3+/5++ t6?

To be honest, my main concern with Grav weapons is that the whole 'salvo' thing is just abused.

A tactical marine with a Grav-gun feels different to a plasma gunner because it's a very static weapon. But guess what? I've never yet seen a grav-gun issued to any model that's not relentless. Making the drawback of the weapon pointless.

But wait! It wounds badly against 5+ and 6+ save hordes....But guess what - everything you see carrying it also has one or more twin-linked bolters, and sufficient toughness to largely ignore hordes.

I understand why grav-guns and grav-cannons were put in, but they don't half annoy me. The problem is, that they were put in as a counter to Dreadknights, Riptides and Wraithknights, which aren't going away because the models are so popular.

Which in turn, makes other units redundant. I could field a Hierophant, but the fact that a devastator centurion squad will kill a 1,000 point model without breaking a sweat in one turn is ridiculous.

I guess this is why Tyranids have had to adapt and now you've got the Toxicrene instead - lower save and shrouded.

I really like the idea and look of a Grav Gun on my Tac squads. kinda thinking of it as a sort of rifle. But 9" on the move /18" stationary looks hard to bring to bear.

Once again, Bikes heavily outclass Tac Marines. And make a mockery of the whole 'salvo' thing.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

OR here's a thought:
Salvo 2/3 ap- concussive always wounds on a 3+ AND when an unsaved wound is suffered the unit takes a strength test with a -1 for every point of armor save the model has. If the model fails the test its unit may not move in the following movement, shooting, or assault phase.

So, basically a "You can't assault me" gun?

Yes?..... heh heh.... Maybe its not that good of an idea.

That was the point of the 30k grav-gun, which I thought was interesting, characterful, and had a niche not occupied by a different gun instead of the grav-gun's "plasma only better!".

I think the Salvo 2/3 ap- concussive always wounds on a 3+ and causing auto-pinning (Due to your gear suddenly weighing 3 times as much)

Not so good at killing any more but used to combo in for slowing the enemy and preparing for assaults.

Bharring wrote:
Seems to me, the need for high-volume AP2 against high-T models is a big part of the problem.

Almost like t6 2+5++ with more than 3 wounds makes things stupid. And Grav is a bandaid.

Perhaps if the 'Tide went to 3+/5++, and the DK went to either AV12 3hp or 3+/5++ t6?

But they're not. 2+ save MCs break the game pretty hard.

And Grav, to some extent, excuses them.

The choices would be add something to handle them, or reign them in. Of course GW chose add, but that just marginalizes what came before.

Bharring wrote:
And Grav, to some extent, excuses them.

The choices would be add something to handle them, or reign them in. Of course GW chose add, but that just marginalizes what came before.

Not really. Non-marine armies don't have access to grav. Yes, Tau and Eldar just power them down, but what about other middle tier lists? I do consider lists other than BA in my analyses. 2+ MCs just shouldn't exist because of the mathematical problems they cause for the game. Marines got grav because without it, the shooting from a standard marine list would never dent these things.

I can usually take down a Riptide in a couple of turns of shooting from my dominions and exorcist, but it's a matter of luck.

Here is a radical idea, make land raiders cost less (both $ and points.) In a game of drop melta and long range grav-stars 250+ on a vehicle that can easily die turn one is just not worth it points wise. If you make things that could hunt MCs cheaper, you could have more to field to hunt them. The LR can pump 2 LC and a Multimelta a turn making it viable to hunt MCs, and with rear 14 it can stand an assault back if they cant get away.