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 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Can you shoot through a solid wall in 40k with a non-indirect weapon? If so, cite the rule, please.

If a 10man squad is behind a line of sight blocking piece of terrain, and only 1/2 of one model is visible, how many models in the squad can taken a wound from a direct shooting attack? If it is more then 1, please cite the rule.

Now, please cite the rule that states floors are transparent to shooting attacks.

Those are the rules for regular shooting attacks.
When firing a Blast weapon, you use the blast rules, which say "each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker"
It goes on to say that the models need not be in line of sight and that wounds can be allocated to models out of line of sight.

Nowhere does it say that you ignore floors when counting how many models are underneath the marker.
A model that is under a floor under the marker - is still under the marker.

Im just shocked that people play this game so wrong.. how can such a basic concept be up for discussion? This is why i will probably never play at my local place...

If people say that holding the blast marker Over the models is a requirement, then how about this. I hold the marker so that its close to my face while im looking almost sideways, but still the marker is above the model. From there i can see half the enemys army, inside buildings and even those in reserve, they must surely all be hit, the marker is still above and im looking downwards; albeit at an angle. Cause you know, beneath a marker semantically means that the marker is at higher elevation, not actually on top of it!

Play it however you want, the rest of us will play by the rules.

SJ

Yonasu wrote:
Im just shocked that people play this game so wrong.. how can such a basic concept be up for discussion? This is why i will probably never play at my local place...

If people say that holding the blast marker Over the models is a requirement, then how about this. I hold the marker so that its close to my face while im looking almost sideways, but still the marker is above the model. From there i can see half the enemys army, inside buildings and even those in reserve, they must surely all be hit, the marker is still above and im looking downwards; albeit at an angle. Cause you know, beneath a marker semantically means that the marker is at higher elevation, not actually on top of it!

Regardless of what you "see" while looking through the blast marker, you would still only hit what is under the marker physically and that won't change at all if you raise or lower the marker.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Can you shoot through a solid wall in 40k with a non-indirect weapon? If so, cite the rule, please.

If a 10man squad is behind a line of sight blocking piece of terrain, and only 1/2 of one model is visible, how many models in the squad can taken a wound from a direct shooting attack? If it is more then 1, please cite the rule.

Now, please cite the rule that states floors are transparent to shooting attacks.

SJ

Cite the rule that states this is important. There is no rule requiring LOS to be drawn from the marker.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Play it however you want, the rest of us will play by the rules.

SJ

Um... You have looked at the poll right? At this moment its 38 to 7 in favor of hitting models on all levels.

Lets try another question. I place a single IC under the wing of a stormraven. My opponent fires a blast weapon at my IC and rolls a hit on the scatter dice. Am I to understand that my IC is 'immune' to the hit becouse there is no physical way my opponent or myself will be able to place the blast marker over the IC and be able to see the IC under the stormraven's wing when 'taking a good look'?

The RAW as I said before state that everyone gets hit.....garbage. anyway the rules for cover would be your in Area terrain so you can cover unless the weapon ignores cover. My biggest problem with this is that on a three story ruin building the difference between the top floor and the bottom floor is about between 9-11inches the blast marker which is the ENTIRE area that the blast can possibly hit is only about 3.5inches ( I really can't remember) regardless, if you rotate the blast marker you wuold see that the area of death would probably not hit the models below or above it but because of this ambiguous rule we have to believe that this tiny blast weapon did more damage then a full on ordinance weapon would on a squad on one floor in the open. (unless they were bunched). Yes the RAW say this is what happens but it doesn't make it right :-P I hate this rule because the majority of the players in my area use Thunderfire Cannons and they use that stupid barrage ignores cover ammunition which eats my boyz

 DJGietzen wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Play it however you want, the rest of us will play by the rules.

SJ

Um... You have looked at the poll right? At this moment its 38 to 7 in favor of hitting models on all levels.

Lets try another question. I place a single IC under the wing of a stormraven. My opponent fires a blast weapon at my IC and rolls a hit on the scatter dice. Am I to understand that my IC is 'immune' to the hit becouse there is no physical way my opponent or myself will be able to place the blast marker over the IC and be able to see the IC under the stormraven's wing when 'taking a good look'?

No, because if you place the template under the wing of the stormraven, but above the character, when looking down from the template you see the character. This is precisely why I voted 4 and yes from this poll. If you want to hit something on the second level, you put it under the floor above where you want to hit

 Ghazkuul wrote:
...but because of this ambiguous rule ...

It's not ambiguous.

'Everything under the marker is hit' is about as unambiguous as you can get.



For what it's worth, it's also how Blasts have worked in this game for most of its lifespan. It's only in a couple of more recent editions that they restricted them to a single floor in ruins.

Your right I incorrectly used ambiguous, what I meant to say was a lot of profanity and questioning the mental capacity of the creator of that specific rule.

I have some footage laying around on a hard drive somewhere of a 3 story building we hit with a Mark 19. we hit the middle floor because that is where the B@stards were hiding, we blew the entire 2nd floor up and the building (made out of mud, feces and dirt) didn't collapse nor was the 3rd floor or 1st floor damaged except where a stray round went in. (we fired about 50rnds of 40mm at the building). So like I said, I hate how this rule makes blast weapons super powered where realistically they aren't. and yes I just compared real life to 40k deal with it :-p

I don't see why it's so hard to imagine that the power of weaponry almost 40000 years into the future would be more powerful then current weapons, so much so that they can cause damage to more then a single floor of a ruinous building (considering this weaponry is suppose to being used against super solders, giant hive bugs, and immaterial daemons as opposed to just regular humans).

OR why its hard to imagine a Ruin is less structurally sound than an intact building, even one constructed from a traditional building material still in use in the west....

 Mulletdude wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Play it however you want, the rest of us will play by the rules.

SJ

Um... You have looked at the poll right? At this moment its 38 to 7 in favor of hitting models on all levels.

Lets try another question. I place a single IC under the wing of a stormraven. My opponent fires a blast weapon at my IC and rolls a hit on the scatter dice. Am I to understand that my IC is 'immune' to the hit becouse there is no physical way my opponent or myself will be able to place the blast marker over the IC and be able to see the IC under the stormraven's wing when 'taking a good look'?

No, because if you place the template under the wing of the stormraven, but above the character, when looking down from the template you see the character. This is precisely why I voted 4 and yes from this poll. If you want to hit something on the second level, you put it under the floor above where you want to hit

If you do that you wont be able to see any models through the blast marker. That's the crux of the argument right? If there is a floor blocking my ability to see them they are not hit. I don't know about you but I'm not going to be able to squeeze my head under a stormravern's wing to get a good look through the blast marker.

In your example, where you place the marker below the guys on the 3rd floor because you targeted the guys on the second floor whats keeping you from hitting the 4 guys on the 1st floor?

whats keeping you from hitting any model on a different floor? how about .....floors. Thats my biggest problem with this rule. that and the fact that a small blast template can theoretically hit an area about 9-15 inches big (depending on how many floors the building has. So how come a small blast marker can devestate that HUGE swath of area but my bullets don't go through every individual enroute to my target giving me 2-20 hits per shot? same principle. yes its logic in an illogical game but it just bugs me.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
whats keeping you from hitting any model on a different floor? how about .....floors. Thats my biggest problem with this rule. that and the fact that a small blast template can theoretically hit an area about 9-15 inches big (depending on how many floors the building has. So how come a small blast marker can devestate that HUGE swath of area but my bullets don't go through every individual enroute to my target giving me 2-20 hits per shot? same principle. yes its logic in an illogical game but it just bugs me.

I agree that it made a lot more sense in 6th edition when the floors got in the way.
But this is YMDC, and this is about what the RAW says.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
... and the fact that a small blast template can theoretically hit an area about 9-15 inches big (depending on how many floors the building has. .

The thing is, the blast can also do that when ruins aren't involved.

Lob a blast at a titan. Put the marker over the titan, towards the edge of the base, and it will hit not only the titan but also the regular infantry guy on the ground right beside the titan.


Yes, it's slightly unrealistic. It's a long, long way from being the only example of that in the 40K rules.

 insaniak wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
... and the fact that a small blast template can theoretically hit an area about 9-15 inches big (depending on how many floors the building has. .

The thing is, the blast can also do that when ruins aren't involved.

Lob a blast at a titan. Put the marker over the titan, towards the edge of the base, and it will hit not only the titan but also the regular infantry guy on the ground right beside the titan.


Yes, it's slightly unrealistic. It's a long, long way from being the only example of that in the 40K rules.

Thats not what Im talking about, in your example the blast is hitting the base with its actual small blast marker, so it makes sense, in a ruin your hitting things that are on the bottom floor of a 3 story building and things on the top floor so your hitting a HUGE area with a small blast marker.

No, in my example you're holding the marker over a 12" tall titan, and also hitting the model 11" lower down.


I'm not seeing a difference between that and hitting models on different levels in a building. It's just one of the many abstractions in this game, and it's ultimately no more 'unrealistic' than the front guy in a unit always being the one to cop all of the incoming fire, or nobody ever being able to pick up somebody else's weapon, or a stationary tank right beside you in the middle of an open paddock being no easier to hit than a running gretchen on the other side of a forest clear over the other side of the table...

 Mulletdude wrote:
No, because if you place the template under the wing of the stormraven, but above the character, when looking down from the template you see the character.

Could you cite a rule that says how high above the table or target model the blast marker is placed?

If you want to hit something on the second level, you put it under the floor above where you want to hit

And then you hit everything underneath the marker, including things on the first floor.