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Playing 40k yesterday and ran across a rule that we felt needs clarification. If a ruin has 3 levels with 4 models on each level directly above and below each other. How many are hit? It simply states to look down at the template which I would assume means 4 hit.

Also in regards to Barrage if it fires at a model in ruins so that the center of the blast is within the ruins area as well do you still get the cover save for being within the ruins?


Please read the rule book before answering. Will save a lot of arguing.

12 and yes

Curious as to why you think 12.

Because all models under the blast marker are hit.

But yes, cover will still apply as normal.

Nowhere in the rules does it state that all models under the template are hit. Only that they be seen. Hence why I am leaning to 4.

Incognito15 wrote:
Nowhere in the rules does it state that all models under the template are hit. Only that they be seen. Hence why I am leaning to 4.

Yes it does... (Well not exactly that phrase, but one that has the same meaning).

"...each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker" (Special Rules Chapter, Blast Section 3rd rules graph excerpt from first sentence).

Incognito15 wrote:
Nowhere in the rules does it state that all models under the template are hit. Only that they be seen. Hence why I am leaning to 4.

This is HIWPI. But RAW is 12.

 DeathReaper wrote:


Yes it does... (Well not exactly that phrase, but one that has the same meaning).

"...each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker" (Special Rules Chapter, Blast Section 3rd rules graph excerpt from first sentence).

=


You are removing the beginning of that rule. Look down at the template etc. (However it is worded) Then your part that you quoted.

Dont be a politician and remove key phrases.

Incognito15 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


Yes it does... (Well not exactly that phrase, but one that has the same meaning).

"...each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker" (Special Rules Chapter, Blast Section 3rd rules graph excerpt from first sentence).

=


You are removing the beginning of that rule. Look down at the template etc. (However it is worded) Then your part that you quoted.

Dont be a politician and remove key phrases.

Here is everything...

"Once the final position of the blast marker has been determined, take a good look at it from above – each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer’s line of sight."

the direction to " take a good look at it from above" only gives you a means to assess which models are " fully or partially beneath the blast marker"

A model on the 2nd floor of a ruin that is directly below a model on the third floor of a ruin that has a blast marker above it, is demonstrably fully or partially beneath the blast marker.

You still need to follow the rule of "each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer’s line of sight."

So you need to count how many models are "fully or partially beneath the blast marker"

If you do not count the model on the 2nd floor, you have broken a rule.


RAW 12 and yes to answer your questions.

RAW in this scenario are ridiculous but hey that's just the opinion of someone who has seen explosives hitting multi story buildings....several times. i promise you, the Taliban on the 1st floor weren't as concerned as the gentlemen on the 3rd floor.

Keep in mind here that the discussion isn't about an intact building. It's about a ruin. There are holes in the floors, and the entire structure isn't necessarily particularly stable.

12 and yes. There is no ambiguity in this, models under the marker are hit and barrage does not have "ignores cover".

Now lets see if OP wants to listen or is just hoping to find someone who can enable his HIWPI

All models underneath or partially underneath the blast are hit. If you are playing LVO/BAO or another tournament scene, they might have rules that specifically use the old sixth edition version of the rule.

If you are partially in, or fully in a ruin you can take cover, unless of course the specific template/blast you are using has ignore cover. Barrage doesn't stop an area of terrain cover save.

It stops things like barricades or what I call line of sight terrain etc.

Per the requirement to see the models beneath the blast marker, and following the shooting rules for not being able to hit models that cannot be seen by the shooter, I voted 4. As to cover, I accidentally voted "no" because I was thinking about the models on the lower levels, but I meant to hit "yes" because normal cover rules would still apply to the models hit.

SJ

HIWPI 4 get hit. Due to the ambiguous rules for this in 7th, we choose to stick with the rules from 6th and pick one level.

As for cover from barrage, yes they still get it if they are in the ruin itself.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Due to the ambiguous rules for this in 7th, we choose to stick with the rules from 6th and pick one level.

What exactly is ambiguous about it? GW very clearly removed the entire concept of having levels in a ruin (or any other terrain) in 7th. It's IMO a bad change, but there's nothing unclear about it and the only rule questions come from people who expect it to work like it did in previous editions despite lacking any rules to support their belief.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Per the requirement to see the models beneath the blast marker

There is no such requirement. For example, if you use an opaque blast marker then you still hit models underneath it. Seeing models through the marker is just the conventional way of determining what is under it, and models are still under the marker even if you can't see them for some reason.

and following the shooting rules for not being able to hit models that cannot be seen by the shooter

Remember, we're talking about barrage weapons here, and they don't require LOS from the firing model.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Due to the ambiguous rules for this in 7th, we choose to stick with the rules from 6th and pick one level.

What exactly is ambiguous about it? GW very clearly removed the entire concept of having levels in a ruin (or any other terrain) in 7th. It's IMO a bad change, but there's nothing unclear about it and the only rule questions come from people who expect it to work like it did in previous editions despite lacking any rules to support their belief.

Unfortunately our ruins do have levels. This isn't a concept, it's a physical reality. I did mark my opinion as HIWPI as we think this way is more realistic. If you don't like it that's fine.

Yes, however GW removed, entirely, the idea that levels in ruins matter for this purpose.

Jeffersonian - no such rule actually exists. As pointed out, it is given as a methodof determining what is below, not a requirement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Jeffersonian - no such rule actually exists. As pointed out, it is given as a methodof determining what is below, not a requirement.

I stated see the models beneath the marker, not see through the marker. Also, the shooting rules tell us you can only hit what you can see, and the blast/barrage rules do not include language bypassing this basic restriction. Taken together, blast/barrage work the same way they always have, if even more poorly written than before.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Also, the shooting rules tell us you can only hit what you can see, and the blast/barrage rules do not include language bypassing this basic restriction. Taken together, blast/barrage work the same way they always have, if even more poorly written than before.

Actually the rules for blasts specifically state that models out of line of sight can be hit.

 Borntolose wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Also, the shooting rules tell us you can only hit what you can see, and the blast/barrage rules do not include language bypassing this basic restriction. Taken together, blast/barrage work the same way they always have, if even more poorly written than before.

Actually the rules for blasts specifically state that models out of line of sight can be hit.

Out of line of sight of the shooter, but not out of line of sight of the marker, which you are looking at the models under.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Out of line of sight of the shooter, but not out of line of sight of the marker, which you are looking at the models under.

The rules don't say that you check line of sight from the marker. Everything underneath it is hit. Nothing in the rules tells you to ignore models behind intervening floors and such.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Borntolose wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Also, the shooting rules tell us you can only hit what you can see, and the blast/barrage rules do not include language bypassing this basic restriction. Taken together, blast/barrage work the same way they always have, if even more poorly written than before.

Actually the rules for blasts specifically state that models out of line of sight can be hit.

Out of line of sight of the shooter, but not out of line of sight of the marker, which you are looking at the models under.

SJ

No you arent. You have to determine what models are beneath the marker. This can be through looking through a translucent marker. This isnt a requirement

Bront, Nos, please re-read what you both just posted. If you were trying to respond to my post, both of your posts make no sense. Please restate, or quote the correct post if it was not mine you were refering to.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Out of line of sight of the shooter, but not out of line of sight of the marker, which you are looking at the models under.

SJ

Very well.
To Clarify:
Where does it say to check line of sight from the marker?
Where does it say that intervening terrain matters in this case?

Taking the implied point to it's logical conclusion, presumably any model that has at least one floor of ruins above it is completely immune to Blast and Barrage weapons, even if the firing unit is also in the same ruins, on the same floor and has 100% LoS to the model in question?

RAW is 12,

templates and blasts can hit multiple layers, technically, due to what is probably an oversight on GW's part


HIWPI and how the big tournies rule it, is only one level is hit.

It doesn't seem to be an oversight by GW, in 6th edition they had a specific rule for this, which was removed.

Can you shoot through a solid wall in 40k with a non-indirect weapon? If so, cite the rule, please.

If a 10man squad is behind a line of sight blocking piece of terrain, and only 1/2 of one model is visible, how many models in the squad can taken a wound from a direct shooting attack? If it is more then 1, please cite the rule.

Now, please cite the rule that states floors are transparent to shooting attacks.

SJ

You realize you can walk or "blow through" ruins right?