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This is all incorrect.

Janus was Nathanial Garro, the loyal Luna Wolf who warned Terra of Horus's treachery. All GKs are cleansed of their original name when they become a GK, and so Garro left behind the name which he bore while serving under Horus.

The Geneseed for the GKs was a preexisting stockpile which was repurposed from its original use, likely a specialized Legion for the Emperor to lead to clear the Webway(and maybe replace the Custodes)

 Grey Templar wrote:
This is all incorrect.

Janus was Nathanial Garro, the loyal Luna Wolf who warned Terra of Horus's treachery. All GKs are cleansed of their original name when they become a GK, and so Garro left behind the name which he bore while serving under Horus.

First, Garro was a Death Guard, not a Luna Wolf. Second, there's a lot of evidence that Garro was one of the eight Space Marines chosen by Malcador (along with Iacton Qruze), but there's nothing indicating (AFAIK) that he was Janus.

Right, forgot he was Death Guard and not Luna Wolves. That was the other marine.

Anyway, my point still stands. Garro was the leader of that group, thus it only makes sense that he was Janus.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Right, forgot he was Death Guard and not Luna Wolves. That was the other marine.

Anyway, my point still stands. Garro was the leader of that group, thus it only makes sense that he was Janus.

we can't even be sure he survives the Heresy. Garro is a very strong canidate but I'd not be counting on it being him

In Mortarion's Heart, Mortarion says that there's something about Janus that would totally destroy Draigo's mind, but doesn't say what it is before his famous banishment.

Just because Omegon has a set of "plain armor" that doesn't necessarily mean it's coincidentally in Grey Knights colors. It could simply mean that it's done up in standard AL heraldry instead of that fancypants Marty Sue stealth armor he usually wears.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
In Mortarion's Heart, Mortarion says that there's something about Janus that would totally destroy Draigo's mind, but doesn't say what it is before his famous banishment.

Which could be alluding it's one of his former sons (Garro) or brothers (Omegon or Alpharius - he'd probably be under the assumption it's the later). It could go either way. I'm not 100%, dead-set that it is definitively Omegon, but even with that, it's still a possibility.

 Matthew wrote:

Ah, this made the thread

 Grey Templar wrote:
Right, forgot he was Death Guard and not Luna Wolves. That was the other marine.

Anyway, my point still stands. Garro was the leader of that group, thus it only makes sense that he was Janus.

Yeahhh except we don't know for sure. It could be Garro, but it could just as likely be Omegon. We don't know what happens to either of them.

 Formosa wrote:
heavily implied like blood ravens and thousand sons, i.e unless they categorically state it in black and white, some people will never accept it.

Most certainly, I am just thinking of ways to make this theory more acceptable.

If, and it's a big if, the new Grey Knights Geneseed didn't come directly from the Emperor, then where did it come from. Possibly as I see it.

Omegon gets to Terra > Emperor sees that he is loyal > Uses Omegon as the template for New Geneseed > Recruits for new Chapter trained by the Knights Errant > Omegon become Janus > Grey Knights!

The only thing that puts me off of this idea is that Omegan hasn't displayed any Psychic fortitude, but I guess the Emperor could do a Guru on him and unleash his full potential.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Right, forgot he was Death Guard and not Luna Wolves. That was the other marine.

Anyway, my point still stands. Garro was the leader of that group, thus it only makes sense that he was Janus.

we can't even be sure he survives the Heresy. Garro is a very strong canidate but I'd not be counting on it being him

Garro certainly has something to do with the creation of the Grey Knight but he is still tainted by having Death Guard Geneseed regardless of how loyal he has proven to be. Unless they have found away to extract his geneseed and replace it with new stock I don't think Janus is Garro.

Well Omegon has access to some of the Emperors gene workings I think, after Deliverance Lost. So maybe that has something to do with the GK geneseed.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Well Omegon has access to some of the Emperors gene workings I think, after Deliverance Lost. So maybe that has something to do with the GK geneseed.

Hmm, I forgot about that.

But I don't think the Emperor would rely upon Geneseed created by a possible traitor, you know ... just in case

Indeed. One thing that Black Library have been careful to point out recently is that Malcador's Knights-Errant may evolve into the Grey Knights or have a hand in their creation, but they aren't one and the same thing.

Some of them know more about what the old Sheev Palpatine Wannabee is doing than others; I got the impression Garro almost only finds out about the activity on Titan by accident (Shield of Lies) - although I haven't heard that for definite - whilst Tylos Rubio knew broadly what was going on when he turned up at Baal to try and ransack the place (The Black Scroll).

Omegon would make sense. There's a definite feel that Alpharius and Omegon aren't on the same page at the moment.

Abbadon's expounding on the history of the Knights is in Pandorax, I think; because you've got the Grey Knights in that one.

The three 'original' Grey Knights mentioned so far are:

Janus - means 'two faces' and 'doorkeeper' - The first (Supreme?) Grand Master. Hinted to be possibly Omegon in The Serpent Beneath and Abbadon's cryptic comments in Pandorax. Certainly there's supposedly something earth-shattering about his identity that the current Grey Knights - who do have access to some of Janus' and his contemporaries diaries, enough at least for Draigo to make an educated guess about the Fallen Angels (Pandorax) don't know.

Epimietheus - means 'hindsight' - a (very) powerful telepath, pretty much confirmed in Pandorax to have been a Dark Angel prior to becoming a Grey Knight. Was at Caliban when the Fall of the Dark Angels was engineered or revealed. Referred to as a 'brother of ten' which is the name given to the wierd wibbly statues that the contemporary Dark Angels carry on the back of Darkshroud Landspeeders. Could possibly be Zahariel?


Khyron - meaning 'leader', 'master' - The first Grand Master of Hyperion's brotherhood. His statue in the cemetary fields is worn featureless (no conspiracy really required; it's only stone, not adamantium and it's 10,000 years old!) but has the inscription "Already, you exalt me for my triumphs, When I ask only that you remember me for my treacheries. Victory is nothing more than survival. It carries no weight of honour or worth beyond what we ascribe to it. If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers.", suggesting he was in some way an active traitor.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
heavily implied like blood ravens and thousand sons, i.e unless they categorically state it in black and white, some people will never accept it.

Most certainly, I am just thinking of ways to make this theory more acceptable.

If, and it's a big if, the new Grey Knights Geneseed didn't come directly from the Emperor, then where did it come from. Possibly as I see it.

Omegon gets to Terra > Emperor sees that he is loyal > Uses Omegon as the template for New Geneseed > Recruits for new Chapter trained by the Knights Errant > Omegon become Janus > Grey Knights!

The only thing that puts me off of this idea is that Omegan hasn't displayed any Psychic fortitude, but I guess the Emperor could do a Guru on him and unleash his full potential.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Right, forgot he was Death Guard and not Luna Wolves. That was the other marine.

Anyway, my point still stands. Garro was the leader of that group, thus it only makes sense that he was Janus.

we can't even be sure he survives the Heresy. Garro is a very strong canidate but I'd not be counting on it being him

Garro certainly has something to do with the creation of the Grey Knight but he is still tainted by having Death Guard Geneseed regardless of how loyal he has proven to be. Unless they have found away to extract his geneseed and replace it with new stock I don't think Janus is Garro.

IIRC Pandorax says they did indeed do this.

Really, all of the Geneseed, not just the Progenoids? Well, I don't know what to make of that.

What ties are there to a Chapter if you can just remove stuff and replace it.

In the new Codex and within The Emperor's Gift, it comes out and says that the gene-seed of the Grey Knights was directly created from the Emperor himself, hence why they are nicknamed the the Emperor's Gift.

In the new codex it talks why the Grey Knights are so resistant to the corruption of the warp and that is because they are infused with the Emperor's power to bend the warp to their will. It goes on to talk about how the Emperor looked upon the Heresy and saw that making the Primarchs and their Legion, there was still a flaw and that he thought he wouldn't survive the end of the Heresy so he needed to give one last gift, he needed to make sure one last piece of himself survived, intact to protect humanity from the coming darkness. He orders Malcador to start building the fortress monastery on Titan where a gene-seed bank already existed. Garro stumbles on this in Shield of Lies.

There is no longer a question of where the Grey Knights got their gene-see, it is directly from the Emperor himself. There is no more heavy hinting, GW have finally just come out and said it in both the codex and in the book by ADB.

As for the first Supreme Grand Master, that is still up for debate. Many saying that it is Garro, others see the heavy hinting that Omegon seeks out Malcador after sneaking away from the Alpha Legion.

Mortarion does say to Draigo that he has been deceived about Janus and that it would shake the Grey Knights to their core should they ever find out who it was. This is the monkey wrench for me though, Mortarion acts hurt by the betrayal of whoever Janus was. The betrayal of whoever it was, was close to Mortarion in some way for him to take them coming back to the Imperium as a personal slight. It is an awesome piece that shows the humanity left in Mortarion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From a post I made a long time ago on the same subject about the Grey Knight origins:

So the evidence for this, see pg.7 in the 7th edition Grey Knight codex under the heading "IN THE EMPEROR'S IMAGE" reads: "The Grey Knights' strength of spirit and purity of body were two of the most important gifts the Emperor passed on to the Chapter through his genetic legacy...Few warriors since the Horus Heresy have matched the flawlessness of the Grey Knights, nor are any so closely linked to the Emperor. It is the unique quality that the Emperor possesses, the nature of his spirit that allows him to touch the Warp, shape it to his will and yet remain beyond its madness, that he has gifted to the Grey Knights. Even the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are too far removed from their creator to embody such purity; their genetic integrity faded by hundreds of generations and thousands of years, given varying degrees of imperfection. Not so the Grey Knights, whose unblemished line reaches back to their maker in an unbroken chain".

Straight from the source, GW has finally came out and just said it, the Grey Knights gene-seed is based on the Emperor's DIRECT genetics thus making the Emperor the Grey Knights' "Primarch". No other psyker can mold the warp to their will like Grey Knights can and the only other one that could do it was the Emperor himself which is how the Grey Knights can stand in front of daemons as the daemons try to corrupt them and the Grey Knights can tell the daemons to feth off because they are able to control the Warp in the same way daemons can.

In the The Emperor's Gift even Hyperion makes a remark about the Grey Knights are called the EMPEROR's Gift for a reason and that reason is that they are directly connected to the Emperor. They have no Primarch, no parent Legion because they don't need it when they have the Emperor's purity and mastery of the Warp. That makes them more powerful psykers than the Thousand Sons in my opinion. Yes, the Thousand Sons can do great things but at what cost while the Grey Knights wield the power without any threat of corruption what so ever.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Really, all of the Geneseed, not just the Progenoids? Well, I don't know what to make of that.

What ties are there to a Chapter if you can just remove stuff and replace it.

I would imagine it's not exactly EASY to do so, it likely requires a virtual rebuilding of the Astartes. I doubt it's something even the emperor could do willy nilly

But still, just seems a bit of a cop out to me.

 Envihon wrote:
In the new Codex and within The Emperor's Gift, it comes out and says that the gene-seed of the Grey Knights was directly created from the Emperor himself, hence why they are nicknamed the the Emperor's Gift.

In the new codex it talks why the Grey Knights are so resistant to the corruption of the warp and that is because they are infused with the Emperor's power to bend the warp to their will. It goes on to talk about how the Emperor looked upon the Heresy and saw that making the Primarchs and their Legion, there was still a flaw and that he thought he wouldn't survive the end of the Heresy so he needed to give one last gift, he needed to make sure one last piece of himself survived, intact to protect humanity from the coming darkness. He orders Malcador to start building the fortress monastery on Titan where a gene-seed bank already existed. Garro stumbles on this in Shield of Lies.

There is no longer a question of where the Grey Knights got their gene-see, it is directly from the Emperor himself. There is no more heavy hinting, GW have finally just come out and said it in both the codex and in the book by ADB.

As for the first Supreme Grand Master, that is still up for debate. Many saying that it is Garro, others see the heavy hinting that Omegon seeks out Malcador after sneaking away from the Alpha Legion.

Mortarion does say to Draigo that he has been deceived about Janus and that it would shake the Grey Knights to their core should they ever find out who it was. This is the monkey wrench for me though, Mortarion acts hurt by the betrayal of whoever Janus was. The betrayal of whoever it was, was close to Mortarion in some way for him to take them coming back to the Imperium as a personal slight. It is an awesome piece that shows the humanity left in Mortarion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From a post I made a long time ago on the same subject about the Grey Knight origins:

So the evidence for this, see pg.7 in the 7th edition Grey Knight codex under the heading "IN THE EMPEROR'S IMAGE" reads: "The Grey Knights' strength of spirit and purity of body were two of the most important gifts the Emperor passed on to the Chapter through his genetic legacy...Few warriors since the Horus Heresy have matched the flawlessness of the Grey Knights, nor are any so closely linked to the Emperor. It is the unique quality that the Emperor possesses, the nature of his spirit that allows him to touch the Warp, shape it to his will and yet remain beyond its madness, that he has gifted to the Grey Knights. Even the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are too far removed from their creator to embody such purity; their genetic integrity faded by hundreds of generations and thousands of years, given varying degrees of imperfection. Not so the Grey Knights, whose unblemished line reaches back to their maker in an unbroken chain".

Straight from the source, GW has finally came out and just said it, the Grey Knights gene-seed is based on the Emperor's DIRECT genetics thus making the Emperor the Grey Knights' "Primarch". No other psyker can mold the warp to their will like Grey Knights can and the only other one that could do it was the Emperor himself which is how the Grey Knights can stand in front of daemons as the daemons try to corrupt them and the Grey Knights can tell the daemons to feth off because they are able to control the Warp in the same way daemons can.

In the The Emperor's Gift even Hyperion makes a remark about the Grey Knights are called the EMPEROR's Gift for a reason and that reason is that they are directly connected to the Emperor. They have no Primarch, no parent Legion because they don't need it when they have the Emperor's purity and mastery of the Warp. That makes them more powerful psykers than the Thousand Sons in my opinion. Yes, the Thousand Sons can do great things but at what cost while the Grey Knights wield the power without any threat of corruption what so ever.

This reminded me of a debate I've had a few times... And what I'm about to say IS off topic, but relevant to that point. Whilst both are evidently powered by the warp, there could be an argument the psychic powers in 40k and sorcery in 40k are different processes, with their own advantages and disadvantages.

 j31c3n wrote:
Just because Omegon has a set of "plain armor" that doesn't necessarily mean it's coincidentally in Grey Knights colors. It could simply mean that it's done up in standard AL heraldry instead of that fancypants Marty Sue stealth armor he usually wears.

In Legion it's plain grey armour.

 dusara217 wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
Just because Omegon has a set of "plain armor" that doesn't necessarily mean it's coincidentally in Grey Knights colors. It could simply mean that it's done up in standard AL heraldry instead of that fancypants Marty Sue stealth armor he usually wears.

In Legion it's plain grey armour.

Different thing. I think you're thinking of his 'Effrit Stealth Team' armour, which was like blackened plate. In Serpent Beneath he has a 'plain suit' which could be just plain AL armour to blend with the legion, or it could be plain grey. I spose it could be his Effrit armour but it would've just said that I think, and the Effrit armour wasn't grey anyway. It was dark/blackened.

Just in case people are starting to forget how logic works, Omegon being Janus of the Grey Knights is just a possibility. Pointing out other possibilities like Garro possingly being Janus does not disprove the possibility that Omegon was Janus. Obviously only one or the other could be Janus... probably, but both are just possibilities and an unproven possibility doesn't disprove another unproven possibility. You have to prove one before you can say "this proves the other one can't be the case".

Black Library and GW are doing one of two things: Either we will never know the real identity of Janus, constantly going back and forth over the evidence, citing sources, arguing the validity of certain sources, etc and it will remain an eternal mystery like how we don't actually know the the origins of a Chapter like the Blood Ravens but there are so many clues that point to a specific legion (Thousand Sons) that people are so sure, including me that it is that answer but in reality, we don't know. It could be clever misdirection or just the way they want it so that discussions like this thread keep popping up. I don't know how many times I made the above post but it is more than I care to count.

Second, Black Library is building up to give us the answer. It is something it feels that they just keep hinting at in their audio dramas. You have the speech of Mortarion to Draigo in Mortarion's Heart and then you have the long running audio drama series feature Garro who has finally stumbled upon Malcador on Titan making preparations for the future of the Grey Knights. A lot of people took this that they finally are hinting towards Garro becoming a Grey Knight but even though I hope that this happens, James Swallow, the author of everything Garro has come out to say that Garro isn't Janus. According to Swallow, Garro doesn't even become a Grey Knight. Although Swallow made these statements early in the Garro series so who knows, maybe Black Library is pushing him there anyway.

What we can enjoy, is the fact that the Garro series gives us the beginning of the Inquisition and the Grey Knights. It describes what things were put into motion for these things to happen instead of just being a blurb in the Inquisition and Grey Knight codices.

My question is this to everyone. It is the same one that Draigo had to contend with when he fought Mortarion: Does it matter who Janus was? Does that really affect who the Grey Knights are and what they have done for the Imperium?

No it doesn't because the Grey Knights were forged from the Emperor himself to be the purest Chapter of Space Marines who go around and kick daemons where it hurts the most. Janus was just the first Supreme Grand Master and he had his memories wiped as do all Grey Knights. It doesn't matter what he did before becoming a Grey Knight but what he did after which is the point of the Grey Knights in the first place.

If you have ever read Grey Knights fluff from Black Library, you find out that many of the Grey Knights weren't that great of people before they become a GK. Hyperion, for example, was Zael who was addicted to flects, Chaos tainted shards of glass that gave people highs as they gazed at Chaos and he still became a Grey Knight and went on to be apart of the force that defeated Angron.

 j31c3n wrote:
Just because Omegon has a set of "plain armor" that doesn't necessarily mean it's coincidentally in Grey Knights colors. It could simply mean that it's done up in standard AL heraldry instead of that fancypants Marty Sue stealth armor he usually wears.

He's got three suits of armour in the same scene, the Effrit suit, the normal Alpha Legion one, and the a plain one. Of course this on its own doesn't mean he's Janus, however, it does suggest he might be.

However, how would Abaddon and Mortarion both know the identity of Janus, if he was indeed Omegon? That's the piece that's confusing me. Horus may have known about both, if the story of Alpharius (and thus Omegon) meeting Horus is true. Now, would he tell Mortarion and Abaddon about maybe the biggest secret of the Adeptus Astartes? And if so, how hasn't it been revealed to more people?

Oh, ok. If he has three suits, then that's more plausible. I was worried that people were misinterpreting something that was trying to say he had a regular set of gear like every other Alpha Legionnaire. Iiiiinteresting.

 Darth Bob wrote:
Omegon might have sincerely been loyal, but why would the Emperor trust him? For all he knows, he's been psycho-hypnotized by Alpharius.

Or he could BE Alpharius

My pet theory regarding Omegon is that he and Alpharius had a falling-out over Horus failing, and now Alpharius has become Tzeentchian and Omegon is just trying to keep the Imperium alive. This explains why we have Alpha Legion cells both helping and hindering the Imperium, and I think that the Alpharius side (fortunately) splintered into hundreds and thousands of different factions all doing their own thing as different cells started becoming more individual and more and more Alphariuses arose to try to gain power over the Alpha Legion.

 dusara217 wrote:
My pet theory regarding Omegon is that he and Alpharius had a falling-out over Horus failing, and now Alpharius has become Tzeentchian and Omegon is just trying to keep the Imperium alive. This explains why we have Alpha Legion cells both helping and hindering the Imperium, and I think that the Alpharius side (fortunately) splintered into hundreds and thousands of different factions all doing their own thing as different cells started becoming more individual and more and more Alphariuses arose to try to gain power over the Alpha Legion.

Your 'pet theory' is actually what BL seem to be pretty obviously doing with the Legion for some time now - since anyone other than Abnett was writing about them, sadly!

Could someone here kindly post some examples of the Alpha Legion actively helping the Imperium? I haven't come across any fluff like that and I'm curious.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Could someone here kindly post some examples of the Alpha Legion actively helping the Imperium? I haven't come across any fluff like that and I'm curious.

Do you mean in 40k?