Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
So, I just noticed something about the Grey Knights. Their first grand master was named Janus. Firstly, Janus was named after a two faced Roman God. In the present day, two-faced means deceitful. Maybe this implies that Janus was guilty of some deceit? Then after some more research, I found that Janus was described as the God of Alpha and Omega (Alpharius & Omegon). Call me crazy, but I think this might imply that the Alpha Legion had a hand in the creation of the Grey Knights
So, I just noticed something about the Grey Knights. Their first grand master was named Janus. Firstly, Janus was named after a two faced Roman God. In the present day, two-faced means deceitful. Maybe this implies that Janus was guilty of some deceit? Then after some more research, I found that Janus was described as the God of Alpha and Omega (Alpharius & Omegon). Call me crazy, but I think this might imply that the Alpha Legion had a hand in the creation of the Grey Knights
I wouldn't be surprised but the thing is, The Grey Knights are essentially a loyalist version of the Word Bearers. Same colour as the original Word Bearer colour, almost the same symbol with an open book - Word Bearers use a flame while GK uses a sword. Both study the nature of demons and how to control/defeat them, and have good understanding on the immaterium.
A lof of what we regard as standard space marine culture came from the traitor legions, particularly the Word Bearers. Librarians wear blue and yellow, the colours of Tzeentch, the modern colours of the Thousand Sons Chaos Marines. The Thousand Sons played a big part in organising the original librariums in the legions. The Imperial religion is based off a book called the Lectitio Divinitatus which is about the Emperor as God, it was written by Lorgar, primarch of the Word Bearers. The other thing which is similar to the Word Bearers is the large use of prayer scrolls, purity seals and other articles of faith and devotion. The marines of the old legions were pretty plain looking, modern marines are covered in prayer pages, relics, religious icons.
A lot of that could just be coincidence though, I mean scrolls and books are a good way to get across the feel of the grey Knights, and the WB.
I agree that there are a few things in the modern SM chapters from the traitor legions which is quite ironic. Chaplains originated in the WB too. Lorgar and the WB worshipped the Emperor as a god, and were rebuked for doing so, yet the whole imperium does now. I don't think librarians are blue because of Tzeench though. For a start in 30k when librarians were also around, the TS wore red and gold armour. So even if they did organise the origional Librarians I dunno where the blue came from. Sons of Horus had their 'oaths of moment' pinned to their armour before battle too, like the WB did.
ImAGeek wrote: A lot of that could just be coincidence though, I mean scrolls and books are a good way to get across the feel of the grey Knights, and the WB.
I agree that there are a few things in the modern SM chapters from the traitor legions which is quite ironic. Chaplains originated in the WB too. Lorgar and the WB worshipped the Emperor as a god, and were rebuked for doing so, yet the whole imperium does now.
I think the original intention of the Chaplains was to insure that the edict of Nikaea was carried out and to provide guidance for the Librarians on how to resume normal duties. Now, it's much the same but to provide spiritual guidance and inspiration, not just in the Emperor, but in the Chapter itself ensuring that it keeps its purity and beliefs.
The God Emperor worship is a result of the Heresy and his enthronement. I don't think it would be the same if he was still able bodied in current 40k. Some Space Marines do follow him as a God, but the majority still see him as a man.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/23 10:19:55
ImAGeek wrote: A lot of that could just be coincidence though, I mean scrolls and books are a good way to get across the feel of the grey Knights, and the WB.
I agree that there are a few things in the modern SM chapters from the traitor legions which is quite ironic. Chaplains originated in the WB too. Lorgar and the WB worshipped the Emperor as a god, and were rebuked for doing so, yet the whole imperium does now.
I think the original intention of the Chaplains was to insure that the edict of Nikaea was carried out and to provide guidance for the Librarians on how to resume normal duties. Now, it's much the same but to provide spiritual guidance and inspiration, not just in the Emperor, but in the Chapter itself ensuring that it keeps its purity and beliefs.
The God Emperor worship is a result of the Heresy and his enthronement. I don't think it would be the same if he was still able bodied in current 40k. Some Space Marines do follow him as a God, but the majority still see him as a man.
Yes, but don't forget, Space Marines that worship the Emperor are a serious minority in comparison to Space Marines who uphold Imperial Truth.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
ImAGeek wrote: A lot of that could just be coincidence though, I mean scrolls and books are a good way to get across the feel of the grey Knights, and the WB.
I agree that there are a few things in the modern SM chapters from the traitor legions which is quite ironic. Chaplains originated in the WB too. Lorgar and the WB worshipped the Emperor as a god, and were rebuked for doing so, yet the whole imperium does now.
I think the original intention of the Chaplains was to insure that the edict of Nikaea was carried out and to provide guidance for the Librarians on how to resume normal duties. Now, it's much the same but to provide spiritual guidance and inspiration, not just in the Emperor, but in the Chapter itself ensuring that it keeps its purity and beliefs.
The God Emperor worship is a result of the Heresy and his enthronement. I don't think it would be the same if he was still able bodied in current 40k. Some Space Marines do follow him as a God, but the majority still see him as a man.
The earliest thing resembling a Chaplain is from the Imperial Heralds (WB pre Lorgar). They had guys that would go down to planets to open negotiations, who were dressed all in black with a skull helm and a winged skull mace. And later on, Chaplains from the WB were the ones who set up the lodges in other legions, like Erebus did with the SoH. But they had Chaplains way before then, because they had them at Monarchia. I'm almost certain the WB 'invented' the Chaplains, probably kindof as priests from when they worshipped the Emperor. I know the Salamanders had something similar, the Igniax or something? I've just looked it up, you're right that Chaplains were created after the council of Nikea by Malcador, but it says that his inspiration was: 'On becoming Primarch, Lorgar had introduced officer-clerics to his Legion. These warrior-priests were named Chaplains, and their role was to minister to the needs of the Space Marines and ensure that their faith in the Emperor was strong.' So yeah they originated with the WB.
I know most SM don't worship the Emperor, but the Imperium as a whole does, is what I meant.
But the Word Bearers having Chaplains first doesn't change the reason why the other Legions got them. I wasn't disagreeing with you there. You seemed to be saying that the Chaplains were there in the other Legions for religious purposes, like in the Word Bearers, when they weren't.
Pilau Rice wrote: But the Word Bearers having Chaplains first doesn't change the reason why the other Legions got them. I wasn't disagreeing with you there. You seemed to be saying that the Chaplains were there in the other Legions for religious purposes, like in the Word Bearers, when they weren't.
No I just meant it's quite ironic that the Chaplains who are a big part of SM chapters originate in possibly the most traitorous legion. I wonder if they know the origins of the Chaplains?
Alpharius wrote: Big Bad Abaddon himself certainly hints that Janus' real identity would blow they minds of the Grey Knights.
It is absolutely implied that he's Omegon.
Or Alpharius.
Or, well, you know.
Now if I could only remember where I read that...
Talon of Horus? I haven't read that yet but it's about Abaddon... Or maybe the GK novel by ADB?
I do like the theory actually. From the Serpent Belief it see,s pretty clear that the Primarchs of the AL aren't quite as in agreement anymore, and with his grey suit of armour... I wonder if they'll actually explicitly tell us, if it is so, or just have the hints. Probably the second one.
Lorgar is still semi-active though. He taught Abaddon some demon summoning tricks for the 13th Black Crusade.
Present day WB fluff says they never see him though, unlike the other daemon primarchs who have been spotted leading their legions (or fractions of their legions) every once in a rare while (except Fulgrim and Lorgar)
But yea, the Grey Knights Omegon theory's been around for a while. General indications so far in the actual Horus Heresy books is that Omegon's loyal and Alpharius isn't, but it remains to be seen. This is the Alpha Legion after all.
TiamatRoar wrote: Lorgar is still semi-active though. He taught Abaddon some demon summoning tricks for the 13th Black Crusade.
Present day WB fluff says they never see him though, unlike the other daemon primarchs who have been spotted leading their legions (or fractions of their legions) every once in a rare while (except Fulgrim and Lorgar)
But yea, the Grey Knights Omegon theory's been around for a while. General indications so far in the actual Horus Heresy books is that Omegon's loyal and Alpharius isn't, but it remains to be seen. This is the Alpha Legion after all.
Yeah there'll pribably be a 180 and Alpharius is the loyal one, and he makes the GK, knowing the Alpha Legion.
How would having Omegon, say for arguments sake, as their first Grand Master effect them in ways of Geneseed. According to their Codex they had a brand new lot created and assigned to them specifically. Omegon doesn't have a geneseed, unless towards the end of the Heresy Omegon gets to Terra and the Emperor does what he needs to do to get a Geneseed from Omegon created.
IF he was the first chapter master it wouldn't affect the gene seen in any way, they are derived from the emperor not the primarchs and having a primarch lead them wouldn't suddenly change there genetics.
I doubt we'll ever know for sure, but I do like the theory. Though, I have to wonder if the Emperor would really trust Alpharius/Omegon to be a part of his grand plan to watch over the Imperium in his absence. I mean, it's not as if the Alpha Legion isn't known for being duplicitous, and letting the Primarch lead your super secret Daemon killers seems like a pretty bad idea. Sure, Omegon might have sincerely been loyal, but why would the Emperor trust him? For all he knows, he's been psycho-hypnotized by Alpharius.
If you look at the Word Bearers before they were censured, then their legion and Monarchia is a snapshot of what the IOM becomes.
It is a huge irony that the censure of the Word Bearers and the destruction of Monarchia causes the heresy which results in the culture of Monarchia spreading across the entire IOM and much of the legion culture being adopted by the marines of the present 40k timeline.
That's interesting about the chaplain look coming from them as well, I thought it might though chaplains already existed in the other legions as a ceremonial role. They were responsible for keeping the traditions of the legion.
Oaths of moment I think are meant to look like a purity seal, but it's only one and it may have only been the officers in the legion who did it. 40k marines use many such things on their armour, not just one.
The books do suggest that the librarians wore blue and yellow from the beginning, the same colours that Thousand Sons adopt when they turn to chaos.
Oh yeah, even the name Monarchia mirrors that of the Imperium.
Monarchia - place ruled by a monarch (ie King)
Imperium - place ruled by an emperor
So Monarchia is the IOM in smaller planet form
I thought the GK were made up of multiple gene sources? Isn't it implied that Loken and the other survivors form the original Grey Knights?
It is implied, and the effort expended by Malcador to create the GK seems to support that. That is why they are the most special snowflakes of all the snowflakes. (even i admit they are snow flakes).
However I doubt that Omegon was Janus. Janus has been a relatively recent addition to the fluff. and unless they have done more interesting things wit this character lately, he died a relatively normal death (or it hasn't stated how he died, I don't remember which). This would be too normal an end for a primarch. Also there is nothing sinister or conspiratorial about he grey knights. They were created by Malcador the Sigilite to combat the presence of daemons after the emperor realized the imperial truth had failed.
Malcador chose 8 Astartes from both loyalist and traitor legions. they went into the warp for 1000 years due to the sigilite's sorcery. they are secretive but it isn't some sort of chaos plot.
The Emperor Protects
Strike Force Voulge led by Lord Inquisitor Severus Vaul: 7000 points painted
GKTiberius wrote: It is implied, and the effort expended by Malcador to create the GK seems to support that. That is why they are the most special snowflakes of all the snowflakes. (even i admit they are snow flakes).
However I doubt that Omegon was Janus. Janus has been a relatively recent addition to the fluff. and unless they have done more interesting things wit this character lately, he died a relatively normal death (or it hasn't stated how he died, I don't remember which). This would be too normal an end for a primarch. Also there is nothing sinister or conspiratorial about he grey knights. They were created by Malcador the Sigilite to combat the presence of daemons after the emperor realized the imperial truth had failed.
Malcador chose 8 Astartes from both loyalist and traitor legions. they went into the warp for 1000 years due to the sigilite's sorcery. they are secretive but it isn't some sort of chaos plot.
Omegon is a relatively new addition ti the fluff too. The whole GK background is pretty secretive and conspirational I would say. No ones saying its a Chaos plot, the general theory is that Omegon remains loyal to the Emperor and later on becomes Janus. There's references to him having a 'plain suit of armour' which would be a grey suit of armour, which could be a reference. And then the thing with their names. It's not really sinister or conspirational for one of them to remain loyal, I think it's perfectly plausible.
Have you seen Janus and Omegon in the same room? Thought not
As of right now, apart from circumstantial evidence, there is nothing to indicate that Janus and Omegon are the same person. However as more fluff is developed and hashed out in the BL books and the HH narrative campaigns that may change.
The Emperor Protects
Strike Force Voulge led by Lord Inquisitor Severus Vaul: 7000 points painted
It's an intreasting theory, but I'd be happy to point out a few holes in it. the likelyhood of A traitor primarch being trusted with something like the Grey Knights is pretty slim, even if he does claim he was always loyal, as was mentioned earlier, but another thing, so far our biggest evidance is the name Janus, thing is, while it's possiable the founders names where "merely" changed to conceal their identity and Janus was being clever, according to Codex: Grey Knights, their names are very carefully chosen, derived from the name of a Deamon to be an exact counter to it so that they are more able to fight the Deamon. if so then the name Janus was chosen not because of any special reasoning but because it resonates in the warp against a specific deamon. (in the case of Janus my personal pet theory is Kiros Fateweaver)
another thing to consider is what Janus is the god OF, he's the roman god of beginnings and transitions, which when you consider the Grey Knights is yet another good reason for the name.
honestly no matter who he is I bet it'll be real intreasting to see it get done and I'm REALLY hoping BL covers the creation of the Grey Knights,.... and doesn't do so in some over priced limited edition audio book or something
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
~2800 points 
Strike Force Voulge led by Lord Inquisitor Severus Vaul: 7000 points painted
