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 Eldarain wrote:
If two BB ICs move within 2" of each other and join to form a unit which detachment is the unit from for the purposes of utilizing detachment specific special rules.

A? B? Both? Neither?

Honest question. I don't know.

There is no way to determine the answer within the rules nor is there a way to determine the Faction of the unit for rules that trigger off that (like Preferred Enemy for instance).

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
If two BB ICs move within 2" of each other and join to form a unit which detachment is the unit from for the purposes of utilizing detachment specific special rules.

A? B? Both? Neither?

Honest question. I don't know.

There is no way to determine the answer within the rules nor is there a way to determine the Faction of the unit for rules that trigger off that (like Preferred Enemy for instance).

I think this is correct. Which would mean without the permission to class it as part of a faction or detachment, rules triggering off it would not apply.

Is anyone unclear or unsure that a IC that joins a Harlequin unit and that has fleet could run and charge, or is that settled cause I think it's pretty obvious that it works.

The other thing though the 2 IC joining each other there is actually a solution to that.


Actually someone stated the way it would work either, because joining something and being joined by are two different things. The person joining another unit if it was say from the Dark Eldar, would be joining a Dark Eldar unit.

If the Dark Eldar joined a Harlequin IC, he would be joining a Harlequin unit and it would be a Harlequin unit.

It sounds weird but it actually is perfectly sound.

Hollismason wrote:
Is anyone unclear or unsure that a IC that joins a Harlequin unit and that has fleet could run and charge, or is that settled cause I think it's pretty obvious that it works.

The other thing though the 2 IC joining each other there is actually a solution to that.


Actually someone stated the way it would work either, because joining something and being joined by are two different things. The person joining another unit if it was say from the Dark Eldar, would be joining a Dark Eldar unit.

If the Dark Eldar joined a Harlequin IC, he would be joining a Harlequin unit and it would be a Harlequin unit.

It sounds weird but it actually is perfectly sound.

You also have a Harlequin IC that is part of a DE unit. Being the joiner doesn't trigger it. Being part of the unit triggers it. They both become part of the 2 model unit simultaneously with no rules to resolve the conflict.

I do agree that an IC joining a non-IC Harlequin unit becomes part of a Harlequin unit and therefore would benefit from the Detachment rules for running and charging if they have fleet.

I don't think so I don't think a Harlequin IC joining a DE or a E unit will give them the ability to run and charge, but a E or DE IC joining a Harlequin unit would be able to.

The other thing though the 2 IC joining each other there is actually a solution to that. 


Actually someone stated the way it would work either, because joining something and being joined by are two different things. The person joining another unit if it was say from the Dark Eldar, would be joining a Dark Eldar unit. 

If the Dark Eldar joined a Harlequin IC, he would be joining a Harlequin unit and it would be a Harlequin unit. 

It sounds weird but it actually is perfectly sound. 

How to you determine which IC was joining and which was joined?

As proven earlier the order you move them is irrelevant, so what method are you using and what rules are telling you to use that method?

I think at this point you just have to discuss it with your opponet and "make da call." I would say they count as both a Harlequin unit and a DE/E unit if there are only 2 ICs. Who "joined" who is irrelevant. Just my humble opinion.

 FlingitNow wrote:

The other thing though the 2 IC joining each other there is actually a solution to that. 


Actually someone stated the way it would work either, because joining something and being joined by are two different things. The person joining another unit if it was say from the Dark Eldar, would be joining a Dark Eldar unit. 

If the Dark Eldar joined a Harlequin IC, he would be joining a Harlequin unit and it would be a Harlequin unit. 

It sounds weird but it actually is perfectly sound. 

How to you determine which IC was joining and which was joined?

As proven earlier the order you move them is irrelevant, so what method are you using and what rules are telling you to use that method?

You'd move and say your joining, so who moved into coherency or with in 2 inches first would be the joining unit.

Hollismason wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

The other thing though the 2 IC joining each other there is actually a solution to that. 


Actually someone stated the way it would work either, because joining something and being joined by are two different things. The person joining another unit if it was say from the Dark Eldar, would be joining a Dark Eldar unit. 

If the Dark Eldar joined a Harlequin IC, he would be joining a Harlequin unit and it would be a Harlequin unit. 

It sounds weird but it actually is perfectly sound. 

How to you determine which IC was joining and which was joined?

As proven earlier the order you move them is irrelevant, so what method are you using and what rules are telling you to use that method?

You'd move and say your joining, so who moved into coherency or with in 2 inches first would be the joining unit.

While I'd play it this way I can't find any support for doing so within the rules.

...............................................
Wrong thread!

Hollismason wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

The other thing though the 2 IC joining each other there is actually a solution to that. 


Actually someone stated the way it would work either, because joining something and being joined by are two different things. The person joining another unit if it was say from the Dark Eldar, would be joining a Dark Eldar unit. 

If the Dark Eldar joined a Harlequin IC, he would be joining a Harlequin unit and it would be a Harlequin unit. 

It sounds weird but it actually is perfectly sound. 

How to you determine which IC was joining and which was joined?

As proven earlier the order you move them is irrelevant, so what method are you using and what rules are telling you to use that method?

You'd move and say your joining, so who moved into coherency or with in 2 inches first would be the joining unit.

Do you have any rules support for that?

It's actually under the independent character special rule and not under the unit types strangely enough.

In order to join a unit, an Independent Character simply has to move so that he is within the 2" unit coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their Movement phase. If the Independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining. If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase. This is to make clear whether they have joined a unit or not. Note that, after an Independent Character joins a unit, that unit can move no further that Movement phase...

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Harlequin IC Joining a Non Harlequin ICh stops being a Harlequin unit, a Non Harlequin unit joining a Harlequin IC becomes part of that Harlequin IC.

It's pretty clear it's always the person who's joining becomes part of the joined squad and the joined squad does not become part of the squad that joined. It actually has to work that way.


So yeah it's the one who moves because otherwise you have to stay the hell away from each other if possible it actually states that.

Both ICs have moved such that at the end of the movement phase he is within 2" of the other so both join simultaneously. So where are you getting your ability to declare who I is joining rule from?

How are you moving two models at the same time? Like I don't understand what's confusing about this.

Unit A Shadow Seer Independent Character moves 6 "

Unit B wishes to join Shadow Seer Independent Character moves with in 2" and says that it intends to join so that it can be with in 2" otherwise it cannot. If it does not intend to join the Shadow Seer Independent character it has to stay two inches away as to avoid confusion if possible.

If you don't intend to join them, you can't move a IC within 2" of another IC. The rules actual say you can't unless it's impossible to not move any other way.

The model who moves with in 2" must make the intention clear that model is joining another.

Last one who moves or the model that moves with in 2" first is the unit that is joining another unit.

The Rules are explicitly clear that two IC cannot come within 2" of each other if possible if one does not intend to join the other.

An Independent Character doesn't join a until the end of the Movement phase, not immediately upon moving within 2".

Actually they move in whatever order, but if you do not intend them to join a unit they should not and cannot be placed with in 2" unless it is a impossible situation.

The only way to join a unit is move within 2" and let the intention known.

Which is what I am saying. There's already a rule for preventing two IC from being within 2" of each other at the end of the phase, one of them cannot move with in 2" of the other unless you intend for it to join that unit.

The rules prevent two IC from every just hanging out next to each other unless it's impossible to get them away from each other.

Also, the reason behind this rule is so that you can't "drop" independent characters by saying oh well he's within 2" of that squad but he's not a part of it. etc...

Except you're trying to use the declaration as more than that. You can move both Independent Characters towards each other and declare that they're going to join each other and then they both join each other at the same time.

No because the rule prevents that. You have to have the intention of joining them to begin with. So the one that moves first , that you physyically move first would be the joining unit.

I move A to be with in 2" of another IC B, I state that he is going to join that unit.

If I moved A within 2" of IC B, with out the intention of joining, I can't do it or IC B has to move away.

Someone has to be saying their joining the other and that happens when you go to move. It's literally right there in the text.

If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase.


Also, things do not happen at the same time. In fact the controlling player decides the order.

SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a game turn, the players roll-off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved in.

You the controlling player get to decide the order since those things both happen at the end of the movement phase. At the end of the movement phase you get to decide which order who joins who since it all happens at the end of the phase. So you pick the order, If A joins B, he becomes part of B's unit.


There are perfectly legitimate and simple rules that resolve this issue and are present in the rules themselves with no need for RAI or RAW, as the rules actually have rules for this type of scenario.

Hollismason I am completely free to move IC A within 2" of unit B with no intention of joining them. However I must then move unit B more than 2" away, if I then roll a double 1 for DT and can't get the unit more than 2" away that is fine because that is covered in the rule you quoted.

Therefore if I move IC A within 2" of unit B and unit B is an IC by not moving unit B more than 2" away from unit A I have moved IC B such that at the end of the movement phase I am within 2" of Unit A and thus join unit A.

The sequencing rule might actually be applicable here (and cares not for who moved first or last). I'll check that and get back to you but at the moment it certainly looks as though the active player simply declares which IC is joining which at the end of the movement phase.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Hollismason I am completely free to move IC A within 2" of unit B with no intention of joining them. However I must then move unit B more than 2" away, if I then roll a double 1 for DT and can't get the unit more than 2" away that is fine because that is covered in the rule you quoted.

Therefore if I move IC A within 2" of unit B and unit B is an IC by not moving unit B more than 2" away from unit A I have moved IC B such that at the end of the movement phase I am within 2" of Unit A and thus join unit A.

The sequencing rule might actually be applicable here (and cares not for who moved first or last). I'll check that and get back to you but at the moment it certainly looks as though the active player simply declares which IC is joining which at the end of the movement phase.

I would also point out this RaW:
"They can join other Independent Characters, though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!"

"a powerful multi-character unit" does not sound like it is "IC A Unit" with an attached B or an "IC B Unit" with an attached A? (regardless of who joined who, is this not a "3rd Entity" ?)

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Hollismason I am completely free to move IC A within 2" of unit B with no intention of joining them. However I must then move unit B more than 2" away, if I then roll a double 1 for DT and can't get the unit more than 2" away that is fine because that is covered in the rule you quoted.

Therefore if I move IC A within 2" of unit B and unit B is an IC by not moving unit B more than 2" away from unit A I have moved IC B such that at the end of the movement phase I am within 2" of Unit A and thus join unit A.

The sequencing rule might actually be applicable here (and cares not for who moved first or last). I'll check that and get back to you but at the moment it certainly looks as though the active player simply declares which IC is joining which at the end of the movement phase.

I would also point out this RaW:
"They can join other Independent Characters, though, to form a powerful multi-character unit!"

"a powerful multi-character unit" does not sound like it is "IC A Unit" with an attached B or an "IC B Unit" with an attached A? (regardless of who joined who, is this not a "3rd Entity" ?)

While that rule might suggest the joined unit is a '3rd entity', it doesn't restrict you from following the normal sequencing rules or the normal IC joining rules. It also doesn't give any specific instructions or restrictions on how to join two ICs. So I think the sequencing rule would still apply and you can simply say that IC A is joining unit B (an IC).

 FlingitNow wrote:
Hollismason I am completely free to move IC A within 2" of unit B with no intention of joining them. However I must then move unit B more than 2" away, if I then roll a double 1 for DT and can't get the unit more than 2" away that is fine because that is covered in the rule you quoted.

Therefore if I move IC A within 2" of unit B and unit B is an IC by not moving unit B more than 2" away from unit A I have moved IC B such that at the end of the movement phase I am within 2" of Unit A and thus join unit A.

The sequencing rule might actually be applicable here (and cares not for who moved first or last). I'll check that and get back to you but at the moment it certainly looks as though the active player simply declares which IC is joining which at the end of the movement phase.

That is true but one of them has to remain more than 2" away from the other at the end of the movement phase. Someone's gotta move, or join, or it impossible to move or join you'd be in that situation, although I can'tactually come up with a scenario or rules scenario where two IC got within 2" of each other and one not be able to move. It would probably involve Deep Strike or Disembarking though.

I feel the Sequencing rule and the rules previously quoted cover this issue in depth and without a need for a RAI or opinion as the sequencing rule makes it quite clear the active player decides what order it happens in and who joins who.

Well IC A moves within an inch of IC B. IC B then moves away but has to take difficult terrain rolls a double 1 can't move more than 2" away. Or IC A deep strikes, then IC B deep strikes and scatters to within 2" of IC A. For instance.

The sequencing rule does seem to cover this. Though it does not matter which IC moved first or last or even at all you just declare which IC is joining and which is joined.