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 kronk wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Dramagod2 wrote:
Im a little confused. Does HH use the same rule set as 40k or a different one? For example, is the current 7th ed. rulebook the official rulebook for HH?

It's the same core rules, but different rules for building the army, and totally different army lists.

What this man said.

You still play by the 7th edition rulebook; however, you use the army lists in the FW HH books instead of the Space Marine codex. I hope that helps.

Also unbound, and multiple CADs are prohibited; it's a single FoC + Ally affairs, and only troops score by default. The brokenness of the psychic phase doesn't really come out either given how limited psychic stuff is. Rumour has it that's the reason the 1ksons got pushed back; the change to psychic phase made them silly powerful.

I dont play it, I found the first HH novel so badly written that I couldnt get past 50 pages or sth. Might be the translation but I doubt it, also I dont like the storyline anyway and would prefer the past to be unknowm, sth like 'dying emperor hur dur dark ages, ignorance, facism, no one knows why, fight!'.Would make for a much more open setting story-wise.

I'd be eternaly happy with plastic 30k set though, great old armours to convert for my CSM and maybe would even start a veteran Imperial Fist force.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Dramagod2 wrote:
Im a little confused. Does HH use the same rule set as 40k or a different one? For example, is the current 7th ed. rulebook the official rulebook for HH?

It's the same core rules, but different rules for building the army, and totally different army lists.

What this man said.

You still play by the 7th edition rulebook; however, you use the army lists in the FW HH books instead of the Space Marine codex. I hope that helps.

Also unbound, and multiple CADs are prohibited; it's a single FoC + Ally affairs, and only troops score by default. The brokenness of the psychic phase doesn't really come out either given how limited psychic stuff is. Rumour has it that's the reason the 1ksons got pushed back; the change to psychic phase made them silly powerful.

Yep all this is what I meant by different rules for building the army, thanks for expanding also, LoW are 25% only which means there's not as much LoW ridiculousness at low points.

Actually the most recent FAQ clarifies who scores and who doesn't. Pretty much anyone who counted for scoring before counts along with a few of the more elite units mixed into the other slot types.

Otherwise same game, different army list and FoCs.

we freely mix and match as none of us have abuse issues. i dont really see it as a spereate game.

Tried to play it with downloaded rules, so we may have been doing stuff wrong. Plus we have 0 expiriance with how FW works. Post battle I must say the armies are super brutal against IG. Mass volkit weapon were blowing me up sky high and the fact that my opponent was using a DA libriarian formation to buff them, ment tons of re-rolls for those.
The predators are also brutal. No jink was only once a problem, when I hovered my vendetta, but the real problem was the number of shots and the immunity to melta.

No idea how the armies work against other ones though, The no jink thing probably hurts DE and other skimer using armies a lot.

A 30k player should not have been able to use 40k formations or detachments, if you play 30k, your entire allied force has to be 30k which has its own battle brother chart. Sicarians are great main battle tanks. They unfortunately cannot be squadroned and have some major downsides. Usually points limitations are and issue and remember they are not immune to melta, just the bonus dice if they pay for the 20 point upgrade. They are not immune to lances or melta bombs either.

We didn't play any scenarios and we assumed the limitation to ally/formations is only HH games. My army doesn't have lance or melta bombs and even if It had I doubt any of my models could get in to range. He was killing 30+ IG per turn with volkit.

Makumba wrote:
We didn't play any scenarios and we assumed the limitation to ally/formations is only HH games. My army doesn't have lance or melta bombs and even if It had I doubt any of my models could get in to range. He was killing 30+ IG per turn with volkit.

The limitations to allies/formations applies to 30k armies, not 30k scenarios.

Only we didn't play a w30k games. We played normal 7th. All the scenarios that we could download were about marines or mechanicus. I wouldn't be able to use my army in w30k, because it doesn't exist there.

Volkite is tuned around 30k games, not 40k games.

When almost everyone is MEQ it's far less devastating. Even S. Auxilia have their 4+ protecting them.

30k has the exact same fluff or lore so its no more "grittier" or interesting. Some players just like to play "historical" games.
You can do this "however innaccurately (lol) using 40k. But 30k"allows" you to do it "accurately". in other words, a money grab and way to wrestle more money from people with disposable incomes.

I can understand people liking the difference in army building and opposition. When everyone has the same army, you have less to worry about someone throwing a monkeywrench into the works. The thing I see about that is the lack of variety and a step towards the old game of checkers where everyone has the same thing. kinda a step in the boring direction for me.

I can also understand the models. if I had money out the yin yang, i'd buy cooler models too. Waiting to see about the supposed plastic sets, Might invest in one or two of them just because.....

It's not the exact same fluff/Lore though because one, it's 10000 years earlier when the state of the imperium and Galaxy was completely different, and two, it's infinitely better written.

I think the idea that HH is boring 'cause of a lack of variety is misleading.


Sure there is only one "codex", but in scope the SM-Legions easily have the content of 2 to 3 codices, and provide a lot more different ways to build an army (theme wise).

DrunkPhilisoph wrote:
I think the idea that HH is boring 'cause of a lack of variety is misleading.


Sure there is only one "codex", but in scope the SM-Legions easily have the content of 2 to 3 codices, and provide a lot more different ways to build an army (theme wise).

Agreed. And it's a big ass army list, with plenty of different ways to play, and there's different Rites of War to change things up. It's less boring than the various Space Marine armies in 40k. And the Mechanicum and Solar Auxilia play very differently too.

The biggest thing about Horus Heresy is that the fluff and gameplay actually line up to some degree. For example, the imperial fists are famous for hosing things down with mass bolter fire. In 30k, a bunch of tacticals can actually wreck stuff with a bs 5 fury of the legion attack. In 40k, trying to build around regular bolters is a joke. The Raven Guard actually sneak infantry up the board instead of scouting rhino's. It doesn't always work (poor Justinian terminators) but there is actually some effort to make the rules fit the narrative.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Volkite is tuned around 30k games, not 40k games.

When almost everyone is MEQ it's far less devastating. Even S. Auxilia have their 4+ protecting them.

Yes, that is why I was asking if they would do ok, and the anwser was pretty good. We will try some more games today without the DAs.

 ImAGeek wrote:
It's not the exact same fluff/Lore though because one, it's 10000 years earlier when the state of the imperium and Galaxy was completely different, and two, it's infinitely better written.

So 30k has different fluff from 40k? From my understanding it was from the same mythos but from an earlier time period. This would by definition mean that they have the exact same fluff.
Saying they have different fluff or lore is like saying that The lore of Rome does not exist in our world. But as Rome is part of our history, I can pick up a history book and read all the lore and fluff of Rome. The difference is that in Rome, you could only "read up on", lore and fluff up to that period in time. While today, we can "read up" on all that existed up to that period in time PLUS all that came to pass AFTER that period in time up to the present. Likewise, the lore and fluff of 40k has everything lore and fluff wise that 30k has plus another 10k worth in addition.

I wouldnt say the variety of 30k is "boring", just infinitely less than 40k in terms of variety. Of course, to many, this could be a plus. But players could achieve the same by forming "marine only" groups of 40k.

I can see why players would choose to play in that time period. We have players who would rather play civil war battles than WW2 battles or WW1 battles over WW2 battles or WW2 battles over Vietnam battles. Different mindsets of the "soldiers" and reasons for them to be fighting and all.

 ImAGeek wrote:
It's not the exact same fluff/Lore though because one, it's 10000 years earlier when the state of the imperium and Galaxy was completely different, and two, it's infinitely better written.

Don't bite on troll bait, man. Save yourself some hassle.

I want to do a Sons of Horus army so bad. What's the draw, for me? The fluff and the models.

We were ment to play a few games, but quit after turn one of game 1. Drop pods full of volkit and those uber predators predators=dead guard with no way to counter it. It was even worse then playing against a NDK rush, which I thought was not possible.

Ask the guy to not use volkites.

30k isn't balanced with 40k in mind, most of it flies but Volkites are the one glaring exception: Volkites aren't that effective against anything with a 4+ or better save, and Volkites point cost clearly reflects the fact that so far in the entire 30k milieu there is only a single unit with a save worse than 4+, and those are 3.5 point conscripts with Feel No Pain..

 EVIL INC wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
It's not the exact same fluff/Lore though because one, it's 10000 years earlier when the state of the imperium and Galaxy was completely different, and two, it's infinitely better written.

So 30k has different fluff from 40k? From my understanding it was from the same mythos but from an earlier time period. This would by definition mean that they have the exact same fluff.
Saying they have different fluff or lore is like saying that The lore of Rome does not exist in our world. But as Rome is part of our history, I can pick up a history book and read all the lore and fluff of Rome. The difference is that in Rome, you could only "read up on", lore and fluff up to that period in time. While today, we can "read up" on all that existed up to that period in time PLUS all that came to pass AFTER that period in time up to the present. Likewise, the lore and fluff of 40k has everything lore and fluff wise that 30k has plus another 10k worth in addition.

I wouldnt say the variety of 30k is "boring", just infinitely less than 40k in terms of variety. Of course, to many, this could be a plus. But players could achieve the same by forming "marine only" groups of 40k.

I can see why players would choose to play in that time period. We have players who would rather play civil war battles than WW2 battles or WW1 battles over WW2 battles or WW2 battles over Vietnam battles. Different mindsets of the "soldiers" and reasons for them to be fighting and all.

Well, no, that's like saying that a game set in Ancient Rome and a game set in Vietnam have the same fluff. They exist in the same universe but the actual story and fluff is different. And again the 30k stuff is so much better written it may as well be a different story.

The biggest draw to me in playing 30K is the historicity of the background. The rules are great, everything is extremely balanced for the most part (some Legions are better off than others it seems), and the models are fantastic. I started playing 40K thirteen years ago with a Death Guard army, but I loved their background and always wanted to know more. HH gives you that option, and coupled with the fact that the current Chaos codex was so uninspiring I pretty much abandoned 40K for 30K exclusively.

The Rites of War allow you to play your army in a myriad of different themes. I currently have a Pride of the Legion Death Guard force, but also have enough Troops that if I wanted to play The Reaping, I could do so easily. And that's just two of many themes.

The lore for 30K is much different from 40K in that it isn't as exaggerated as the current crap that GW haphazardly vomits onto paper and then prints. The books are written in a similar vain of an historical war book, which FW has always been able to do well. The smallest details are right there, and it lends itself well to both immerse the reader and also help further build upon and characterize your force.

They are just different time periods but they are still using the same fluff. They are just using a different time period within it. When the writers write additional fluff to go with the 30k, they are actually ALSO adding it to the background and history of the 40k fluff and lore as well. That may not be their intention, but by definition, that is what they are doing.
I can totally understand preffering fuff written by these authors to that written by others if that is what you prefer. Coming from a background teaching history, that is just something I felt needed to be pointed out.
If your reason is purely because of storyline, you could just play 0k and orm marine only groups and run scenareos that reflect the heresy and paint your army up in retro colors.
kronk, your post was unhelpful intended to instigate drama, and had no place in the thread. Rightfully, reported.

I think the main draw is the balance of all armies being the same. In 40k, you have some armies and weapons that do well against specific opponents but not so well against others. This leaves you with the rock paper scissors deal. When every army is the same, you do have to worry and think "will I be playing orks and need pie plates or deathwing and need plasma?". You know that you will always be facing marines and kit yourself accordingly. There is still some variation but not as much. This forces you to rely more on tactics than on tailoring or getting lucky.
Some also just like the imagery of masses of marines in huge squads for the visuals.
Which brings us to the visuals. The models. You COULD just use 30k models in 40k games. If I had the $, I would because I lie the retro models. Hope the plastic kit (if it comes out) is something I can afford and allows for options I like.

So overall, i think the answer lies in the playstyle and focus on large unit size tactics.

If only the FW writing had the unintended consequences of cleaning up the GW writing and ridding us of narrative abortions like Draigo.

Well, I kinda agree with you. I prefer to read a historical type presentation to a lot of the crap they put out in 40k. Hopefully, they will see the reaction and appeal the FW writers are having with their presentation of the fluff and try a few items in the "modern' 40k using that style to see how well it goes with it and if it improves sales, go with it.
Yeah, pipe dream I know.

I think people like HH better because it's a more niche game drawing more like-minded people together.

Where 40K has a much wider player base, HH mostly has Imperium and corrupted imperium players.

Also, being a niche game makes it less accessible, therefore it's a lot more likely that the people you meet are deeply invested in it, thereby sharing more love of the hobby and whatnot.

Quite often, that means people bring more to the table (no pun intended) and therefore get along better.

I also tend to have more fun with players of codexes that I like than with others. Just the fact that we have that nice fluff and models and whatnot to share together vastly improves the first contact I think.


So yeah, Horus Heresy is a top quality miniatures game (even more than 40K) set in a single coherent fluff (not like 40K, where every codex is the best by its own book) and at a price point that attracts only pure enthusiasts.

With regards to price, I was under the impression that HH armies were more priced like Dark Eldar, with 18 bucks for two Khymerae and the likes, than regular Space Marines which don't cost that much.

 koooaei wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

...a balanced competitive game. Let's see how GW handles it.

Like it handled Mordheim and Necromundula.

Nah, you could spend forty bucks and be done with your Necromunda gang. You can't even be done with a squad for forty bucks in FW resin. GW will be happy to continue supporting peoples' expensive addictions. It's the addictions with a lower growth potential/customer retention they don't care about.

 Gashrog wrote:
Ask the guy to not use volkites.

30k isn't balanced with 40k in mind, most of it flies but Volkites are the one glaring exception: Volkites aren't that effective against anything with a 4+ or better save, and Volkites point cost clearly reflects the fact that so far in the entire 30k milieu there is only a single unit with a save worse than 4+, and those are 3.5 point conscripts with Feel No Pain..

As they are good the anwser would be no. I will try to play some games with other people this weekend.