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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/19 22:16:22
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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reenon wrote:The WS player chose to keep everything in reserve as his strategy, and the Tau player (through rules) came up with a strategy that beats it. They could have played the game out, but it would have looked like this (rather than the judge saving them time)
Turn 1:
WS: Can't deploy, "your turn."
Tau: Move all units except kroot randomly around board scoring points. Riptide sets up lemonade stand.
Turns 2-5:
Repeat turn 1 until Turn 5 / Time.
End of Game:
WS: 0 units on table = loss
Tau: Wins game due to holding everything
Riptide didn't exist at the time.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 09:49:12
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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reenon wrote:The WS player chose to keep everything in reserve as his strategy, and the Tau player (through rules) came up with a strategy that beats it. They could have played the game out, but it would have looked like this (rather than the judge saving them time)
Turn 1:
WS: Can't deploy, "your turn."
Tau: Move all units except kroot randomly around board scoring points. Riptide sets up lemonade stand.
Turns 2-5:
Repeat turn 1 until Turn 5 / Time.
End of Game:
WS: 0 units on table = loss
Tau: Wins game due to holding everything
Then you havent read or understood the thread. The game halted. It could not progress past WS first turn, as a required action (move reserves on) was impossible to complete.
The judge made an arbitrary, entirely game changing ruling that handed an automatic win to one side. WHat makes you think handing an AUTOMATIC WIN in pretty much any situation short of a cheating situation is a good call? Seriously, the mind boggles if you think that making an on-the-spot ruling, ie one that neither could have prior knowledge of, that hands an automatic win to one side 5 minutes into a game is somehow the only or preferable call.
There was no "strategy" to beat here - there was a rules failure (no way to resolve the situation) and the judge made one of the single worst calls in the ETCs history of making bad calls with rules.
Cheexsta wrote: insaniak wrote:The game timing out because you have hit a rules loophole isn't an acceptable solution either.
It's also not what happened in this case. The Scars player didn't lose because the judge called time. He lost because the judge declared that models unable to move on were destroyed.
What other (tournament) RAW outcome could the judge come up with? Aside from using incorrect terminology (the units weren't 'dead'; they just had no opportunity to come on), there is really no other 'by the book' result that they could have reached.
No, there was nothing by the book. The game halted. How do you resolve a game halt situation 5 minutes into a game? You make a rule from that point on about reserves being destroyed, and you restart the game with that rule in place. Utterly and totally fair on BOTH players.
I would *hate* to have been the Tau player in that situation - I've been denied a meaningful game against a strong, challenging opponent. Instead a judge has just flipped a coin and told me I won. Totally unsatisfying.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 15:10:17
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Douglas Bader
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nosferatu1001 wrote:WHat makes you think handing an AUTOMATIC WIN in pretty much any situation short of a cheating situation is a good call?
The fact that it's the best interpretation of how the rule is supposed to work, and how GW eventually ruled that the situation works. It's only an "automatic win" because one player made a stupid mistake.
Seriously, the mind boggles if you think that making an on-the-spot ruling, ie one that neither could have prior knowledge of, that hands an automatic win to one side 5 minutes into a game is somehow the only or preferable call.
How is it one that neither could have had prior knowledge of? This was a situation that had been discussed before, and "reserves are destroyed is the only way to resolve this" was the answer that most people assumed was correct.
Utterly and totally fair on BOTH players.
That isn't fair at all to the Tau player because it allows his opponent to escape a fatal mistake without consequences. I'd be incredibly unhappy if a judge ruled that I had to restart the game and give my opponent a chance to win because otherwise they weren't going to have enough fun.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 19:12:26
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Peregrine wrote:That isn't fair at all to the Tau player because it allows his opponent to escape a fatal mistake without consequences. I'd be incredibly unhappy if a judge ruled that I had to restart the game and give my opponent a chance to win because otherwise they weren't going to have enough fun.
So you would have been okay with the game being a draw, as the rules dictated since the game could not advance beyond turn 1, the game would have ended in a draw.
I suppose that would have been the most fair way to rule that situation.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/20 19:56:33
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Peregrine wrote:That isn't fair at all to the Tau player because it allows his opponent to escape a fatal mistake without consequences..
And that's exactly as it should be, because this was only a 'fatal mistake' because of a rule that didn't exist when the WS player chose his deployment.
It's no more a mistake on his part than it would have been if the judge had walked over at the end of turn 1 and said 'Hey, new rule: Any army that includes models with Kroot Rifles wins automatically at the end of turn 1!'
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 00:34:15
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Douglas Bader
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DeathReaper wrote:So you would have been okay with the game being a draw, as the rules dictated since the game could not advance beyond turn 1, the game would have ended in a draw.
I suppose that would have been the most fair way to rule that situation.
No, because an automatic draw is not what would have happened. By RAW the game could not advance beyond turn 1, but that doesn't mean you ignore the mission conditions. For example, if a Tau model happened to be within range to claim an objective then the Tau player would win. It would only be a draw if the score was actually tied at that point.
insaniak wrote:And that's exactly as it should be, because this was only a 'fatal mistake' because of a rule that didn't exist when the WS player chose his deployment.
It's no more a mistake on his part than it would have been if the judge had walked over at the end of turn 1 and said 'Hey, new rule: Any army that includes models with Kroot Rifles wins automatically at the end of turn 1!'
And this is simply not a valid comparison. RAW the situation could not be resolved, but "models that can't arrive from reserve are destroyed" was a common solution to the problem (and IIRC the most popular one) and that's how GW ruled it when they finally got around to answering the question by FAQ. That's not at all the same as inventing some rule that has nothing to do with the ones published by GW.
And no, the bike player's mistake isn't justified by RAW. Putting your whole army in reserve and guaranteeing a draw is still a stupid decision (unless you know you have no hope of winning the game and an intentional draw is your best outcome), so it's incredibly unlikely that the bike player was thinking "if I put everything in reserve I earn a draw" when they made that choice. The more likely answer is that they went with their standard "put everything in reserve against a shooting army to avoid the turn-1 alpha strike" strategy without bothering to think carefully enough and realize that the Tau player was capable of blocking the whole edge and keeping their army off the table. That's a stupid mistake, not rule confusion that justifies restarting the game to correct the mistake.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 00:56:51
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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So you're saying they should foresee the bone headed ruling that was made? Nope, that was an incredibly unfair ruling. It was not a mistake.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 01:09:15
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Douglas Bader
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Yes, given that it was both the most popular interpretation of how to deal with the unresolvable-by- RAW situation and the one that made the fewest changes to RAW. And despite you calling it a "bone headed ruling" it was exactly the same as the ruling that GW gave when they finally FAQed the problem. If you don't want the game to permanently remain in an unresolved state of rule conflict then the only reasonable thing to expect is that the models trapped in reserve are destroyed.
And, again, I find it incredibly unlikely that the bike player deliberately put their whole army in reserve with the intent of causing an intentional draw. The much more likely scenario is that the bike player made a stupid mistake and failed to think about the possibility of the Tau player being able to block the whole table edge. And I don't see why the judge should rule that the game needs to be restarted to give the bike player an opportunity to avoid the mistake.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/21 01:10:05
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 01:15:02
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Peregrine wrote:... without bothering to think carefully enough and realize that the Tau player was capable of blocking the whole edge and keeping their army off the table. That's a stupid mistake, not rule confusion that justifies restarting the game to correct the mistake.
That's not a mistake at all, because at that point no rule existed that actually allowed the Tau player to interrupt the movement of models that were required by the rules to move on to the board. That rule, at that event, only came into being when the judge made it up.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 01:16:20
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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The TO could also have said...
"Fine, you want to play it like this... sit there and wait until the WS player figures out how to bring his models on from Reserves. The rules require he does so. Since it'll never happen, the clock will run out and the game will end in a tie. I'll be ensuring you receive a zero score for sportsmanship and this is a very unsportsmanlike thing to do.
OR...
You can restart the game and not block off your opponent's table edge. Your call. Chance at victory and a decent sportsmanship score or a tie and a zero for sportsmanship."
This seems like the fairest thing to me as there was no rule at the time dealing with models that couldn't come in from Reserves.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 01:28:12
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Douglas Bader
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insaniak wrote:That's not a mistake at all, because at that point no rule existed that actually allowed the Tau player to interrupt the movement of models that were required by the rules to move on to the board. That rule, at that event, only came into being when the judge made it up.
And the point you keep ignoring is that it wasn't a ruling without precedent. It was a common resolution, the resolution that makes the fewest modifications to RAW while still avoiding creating an unresolvable situation, and the ruling that GW eventually used when they FAQed the issue. If you're going to oppose this ruling then you might as well have a policy that no TO can ever make a decision without offering the losing player the ability to restart the game.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 01:29:59
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Kriswall wrote:The TO could also have said...
"Fine, you want to play it like this... sit there and wait until the WS player figures out how to bring his models on from Reserves. The rules require he does so. Since it'll never happen, the clock will run out and the game will end in a tie. I'll be ensuring you receive a zero score for sportsmanship and this is a very unsportsmanlike thing to do.
OR...
You can restart the game and not block off your opponent's table edge. Your call. Chance at victory and a decent sportsmanship score or a tie and a zero for sportsmanship."
This seems like the fairest thing to me as there was no rule at the time dealing with models that couldn't come in from Reserves.
An unnecessarily harsh response for what was a tactical move on the part of the Tau player.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 01:32:05
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Douglas Bader
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Kriswall wrote:I'll be ensuring you receive a zero score for sportsmanship and this is a very unsportsmanlike thing to do.
And this is why sportsmanship scoring is a terrible idea and should never be included in a tournament.
You can restart the game and not block off your opponent's table edge. Your call. Chance at victory and a decent sportsmanship score or a tie and a zero for sportsmanship."
So I guess we can expect similar rulings like "it's not fair to tarpit your opponent's death star" or "you need to leave room for your opponent's drop pods to arrive without a mishap" or "your opponent can't deal with that much AV 14, turn your LRBTs around to give them shots against rear armor"?
This seems like the fairest thing to me as there was no rule at the time dealing with models that couldn't come in from Reserves.
Just like a lot of other situations where RAW isn't clear. If there's a rule issue in a tournament tomorrow should the judge say "remove that unit from your list because there's a rule problem" instead of resolving the rule conflict?
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 01:39:06
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity
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Peregrine wrote: Kriswall wrote:I'll be ensuring you receive a zero score for sportsmanship and this is a very unsportsmanlike thing to do.
And this is why sportsmanship scoring is a terrible idea and should never be included in a tournament.
You can restart the game and not block off your opponent's table edge. Your call. Chance at victory and a decent sportsmanship score or a tie and a zero for sportsmanship."
So I guess we can expect similar rulings like "it's not fair to tarpit your opponent's death star" or "you need to leave room for your opponent's drop pods to arrive without a mishap" or "your opponent can't deal with that much AV 14, turn your LRBTs around to give them shots against rear armor"?
This seems like the fairest thing to me as there was no rule at the time dealing with models that couldn't come in from Reserves.
Just like a lot of other situations where RAW isn't clear. If there's a rule issue in a tournament tomorrow should the judge say "remove that unit from your list because there's a rule problem" instead of resolving the rule conflict?
I like sportsmanship scores. It gives people a reason not to be a jerk.
Tarpitting a death star doesn't break the game. Being unable to actually hurt an AV14 vehicle doesn't break the game. Dissimilar examples are dissimilar.
I just think that giving the players the option to start over and actually play the game versus arbitrarily giving the win to a player would be a better thing. The players didn't decide the outcome of that game through skill and tactics... the judge did.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 01:45:45
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Douglas Bader
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Kriswall wrote:I like sportsmanship scores. It gives people a reason not to be a jerk.
And instead you're using it to punish a strategic decision that "wasn't fair". Making a game-winning move is not "being a jerk", it's just winning the game. The Tau player didn't gloat endlessly and laugh at how stupid the bike player was, they just took their win and moved on.
(The popular picture of the event was deliberately posed for humor value by everyone involved.)
Tarpitting a death star doesn't break the game. Being unable to actually hurt an AV14 vehicle doesn't break the game. Dissimilar examples are dissimilar.
Neither does blocking your opponent's entire army into reserve, once you make the common-sense ruling that everyone else did.
I just think that giving the players the option to start over and actually play the game versus arbitrarily giving the win to a player would be a better thing.
They did play the game, and the Tau player won. The only "arbitrary" thing was making the obvious ruling that the units in reserve died, which is no different than any other ruling about an ambiguous RAW situation. If there's a ruling on the 5th turn that might change the outcome of the game should the judge restart the whole game so that it's "actually played"?
The players didn't decide the outcome of that game through skill and tactics... the judge did.
Sure they did. The bike player made a stupid mistake and followed their "reserve your whole army against a shooting alpha strike" rule without stopping to think about the possibility that their opponent might be able to block their table edge. Even if the game is a draw by strict RAW that's still a stupid strategy mistake. Throwing away a game with a bad decision is just something you have to deal with, you don't get to demand a restart because you aren't having enough fun.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 04:53:19
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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wow you all know an awful lot about this one particular game. We should make a documentary.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 05:13:34
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Dakka Veteran
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it's pretty well documented.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 05:17:26
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Guarded Grey Knight Terminator
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Kriswall wrote:
I like sportsmanship scores. It gives people a reason not to be a jerk.
No, it really doesn't. It gives people a reason to pretend to be friendly while chipmunking their opponent. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a cool, friendly person play multiple friendly games at tournaments with cool opponents, only to inexplicably have non-perfect sport at the end of the day. Don't get me wrong, most of the time sportsmanship scores will mostly be completely irrelevant in 90% of games, but they contribute more to people being dicks than they do detract from bad behavior.
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I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 20:25:29
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Peregrine wrote: insaniak wrote:That's not a mistake at all, because at that point no rule existed that actually allowed the Tau player to interrupt the movement of models that were required by the rules to move on to the board. That rule, at that event, only came into being when the judge made it up.
And the point you keep ignoring is that it wasn't a ruling without precedent. It was a common resolution, the resolution that makes the fewest modifications to RAW while still avoiding creating an unresolvable situation, and the ruling that GW eventually used when they FAQed the issue. If you're going to oppose this ruling then you might as well have a policy that no TO can ever make a decision without offering the losing player the ability to restart the game.
1) it had no etc precedent. Which is all that is needed here
2) you've not disagreed that it wasn't a mistake. It cannot be a mistake as they had no prior knowledge of the ruling. It was bone headed to make that ruling to THAT game. That context was clear, if you didn't insist on quote snipping to try to show you're right. You're not. You cannot be.
3) slippery slope fallacy. The most equitable solution to both players creating a game halt five min in isn't to give one player the win.
You're done.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 21:09:40
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Douglas Bader
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But it had precedent elsewhere. This is not some bizarre out-of-nowhere rule like "all blue models are destroyed as soon as the game begins", it was a common-sense ruling that followed the generally-accepted solution to the problem.
2) you've not disagreed that it wasn't a mistake. It cannot be a mistake as they had no prior knowledge of the ruling. It was bone headed to make that ruling to THAT game. That context was clear, if you didn't insist on quote snipping to try to show you're right. You're not. You cannot be.
No, it was indisputably a mistake. There was no plausible rule interpretation where the bike player's decision to reserve their entire army is a good one. Here are the three plausible solutions to the RAW problem, and all of them are bad for the bike player:
1) Strict RAW: the game can not continue past this point. The game sits in its "stuck" state until the time limit for the match expires, at which point the game ends. According to the "wipeout" rule (page 90) the bike player loses as they have no units on the table.
2) Units that can not enter the table are destroyed (the actual ruling, and the one that was later made by GW). The bike player's units are all immediately destroyed and they lose the game.
3) Units that can not enter the table do not enter, but may try again next turn. But since the bike player has no units on the table that could change the game situation and create an opportunity for the reserved units to enter the table they will be stuck in reserve and the bike player will automatically lose the game once they finish the final turn.
In all of these situations the bike player loses the game because of their decision to reserve their entire army. This is not a case of "but I thought it worked this way", it's a stupid mistake.
3) slippery slope fallacy. The most equitable solution to both players creating a game halt five min in isn't to give one player the win.
Of course it's the most equitable solution because the correct answer is to make a ruling based on how the rules actually work, not according to what gives each player the fairest chance of winning. If RAW does not function then you make the smallest change that stays as close as possible to RAW/ RAI. Ruling that the entire game needs to restart is an extreme and entirely unjustified choice, regardless of how many minutes had been spent on the game.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 21:16:54
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Still completely wrong.
Each tournament has its own house rules. Creating a houserule to give an unjustified win to one side during the game, is a bad houserule.
They didn't decide This in advance, so it came out of nowhere to all real intents and purposes.
Another solution would have been that the tau player isn't allowed to create a game halt situation, so must redeploy. That's also close to raw. (Remember, you cannot use the eventual choice by GW to influence this decision). Or, you unwind further, and the WS player is also not allowed to create a game halt situation. Same as you cannot choose situations that lead to a break in rules elsewhere.
Absolutely, 100% wrong is to pretend the ws player made a mistake in not reading the judges mind.
ETC has a history of dodgy rulings. This is another one. You don't make a stupid decision like that during the game, you apply it going forward. It's like finding that the 5th edition dreadnought arc of sight rules have been changed on you back to e 4th edition ones, g'tee ing your chaos dreads will screw your army as you deployed them without realising the judge was an idiot.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 21:17:16
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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insaniak wrote: Peregrine wrote:That isn't fair at all to the Tau player because it allows his opponent to escape a fatal mistake without consequences..
And that's exactly as it should be, because this was only a 'fatal mistake' because of a rule that didn't exist when the WS player chose his deployment.
It's no more a mistake on his part than it would have been if the judge had walked over at the end of turn 1 and said 'Hey, new rule: Any army that includes models with Kroot Rifles wins automatically at the end of turn 1!'
As an aside I like Kriswalls solution. I have a question for you let's say someone starts 1 unit on the board hidden in a corner with a majority 2+ armour save but a guy with a 6+ save at the front of the unit (3 marine honourguard with a ministorum priest leading). The enemy has deployed and has nothing in range/ los that can possibly target the unit. His opponent has 1 Drop Pod that contains Grav Command. They drop next to the unit and shoot players disagree how to resolve. TO rules you use majority and the unit is easily wiped out handing vistory to the player. Would you consider this a terrible decision by the TO? As it is basically the same situation ( TO makes obvious rules call to cover an area not covered by rules that hands one side victory).
I disagree with the do over decision as it gives the WS player an out for a bad decision. You claim he couldn't have known before hand but let's be honest he could have worked out what would most likely happen and could have worked out the RaW result (time out, he ends game with no models on the table so loses) which was the same as the ruling (if for marginally different reasons).
It was not a terrible call. It was a bad situation and the judge made the same call GW did, so got it bang on correct.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 21:26:16
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Which is completely irrelevant.
Players shouldn't be expected to follow house rules from other events on the assumption that the judge at the event they're actually going to enter will rule the same way... particularly given how many events rule different rules issues different ways.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 21:29:26
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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Douglas Bader
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Each tournament has its own house rules. Creating a houserule to give an unjustified win to one side during the game, is a bad houserule.
They didn't decide This in advance, so it came out of nowhere to all real intents and purposes.
So TOs are no longer allowed to make rulings that aren't published in advance without restarting the game?
Another solution would have been that the tau player isn't allowed to create a game halt situation, so must redeploy.
IOW, restart the game. Which, as I already explained, is a completely unjustified ruling.
That's also close to raw.
No it isn't. There is nothing at all in the rules that covers redeploying a whole army to avoid a situation that happened at some future point.
Absolutely, 100% wrong is to pretend the ws player made a mistake in not reading the judges mind.
Sigh. Did you see the part where I explained why there is no possible rule interpretation that the bike player could have been thinking of that would make their all-reserve decision a good one? The bike player didn't use a sensible strategy that only failed because of a TO ruling that nobody could have anticipated, they screwed up and didn't bother to think about the possibility that the Tau player could block their whole table edge. The only way that decision was going to work is if the TO said "you're not going to have fun if you lose so quickly, let's change the rules so you have a chance".
ETC has a history of dodgy rulings. This is another one. You don't make a stupid decision like that during the game, you apply it going forward. It's like finding that the 5th edition dreadnought arc of sight rules have been changed on you back to e 4th edition ones, g'tee ing your chaos dreads will screw your army as you deployed them without realising the judge was an idiot.
Except it isn't the same at all because:
1) It's a ruling with precedent behind it.
and
2) No matter what (reasonable) ruling the TO picked the bike player loses. By RAW they lose the game after waiting a few hours for the time limit to expire, and by any other ruling that is not "you can correct your mistake since you won't have fun otherwise" they lose immediately. Automatically Appended Next Post: insaniak wrote:Which is completely irrelevant.
Players shouldn't be expected to follow house rules from other events on the assumption that the judge at the event they're actually going to enter will rule the same way... particularly given how many events rule different rules issues different ways.
Ok, fine, then play it by strict RAW: the game can't progress, and the bike player loses by the "wipeout" rule when the time limit expires.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/21 21:31:40
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 21:35:44
Subject: Re:Whole Army in Reserve
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Junior Officer with Laspistol
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This is seriously an argument, about a single game that happened 2 editions ago, in which no one here was involved.
Who gives a gak about whether the call was good or not? It's over. Go home. There's nothing after the credits but black space.
The WS player created a situation that the Tau player exploited. The Tau player couldn't have done that without the WS player ACTIVELY choosing to null deploy. What does it matter what anyone thinks of this now?
The question in the OP is answered. You can reserve everything, but the sudden death rules will result in a loss if you have nothing on the table at the end of the first turn.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 21:39:13
Subject: Re:Whole Army in Reserve
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Douglas Bader
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It matters because how you view the old situation says a lot about how you think TOs should rule on current situations: making the fewest changes to the rules vs. making the ruling that gives both players the fairest chance of winning or the most fun.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/03/21 21:52:15
Subject: Whole Army in Reserve
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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To be fair, the current discussion really is rather off topic, and the original question has been well and truly answered.
Moving on... If anyone is interested in continuing a discussion on appropriate rules judging, perhaps starting a thread in the tournament discussion area would be more appropriate.
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