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 koooaei wrote:
Yep, we've forgotten about poison.

Yeah. Hormagaunts with toxin sacs are thee bane of Wraiths.

Just take dakka speeders. They are fast and if equipped right dish out a lot of shots and they are cheap. Sure they are made of paper but against cons most your vehicles are like paper anyway. For 180pts you get 18 hb shots which causes 1-2 wounds depending on RP. And it's not like they are useless otherwise, they absolutely shred necron warriors the most popular necron troop choice with 36 inch range it out ranges 90% of the codex.

las cannons, missile launchers, grav guns, dakka, more dakka, they really are not that hard to kill, I don't see the panic people seem to be having.

 koooaei wrote:
Noone's saying you're gona erase a unit per turn with one volley. It's not what optimal means.

I never said you'd erase them in one volley or asked for anything that can. I asked for a st7 platform that puts out as many hits as a quad bolter battery for 120pts. Or close to. If there isn't one then the quad bolters are far closer to being optimal as they are more points efficient per wound.
In other words. Can you find a st7 plaform that will put 8 wounds on a wraith unit for ~120pts (before saves). If not then the quad bolters are closer to being optimal. A wave serpent with scatter and shuriken cannon which costs more puts an average of 6.9wounds (if including rerolls to hit on shield and cannon) for more points. Therefore the quad bolters are more optimal than a wave serpent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If anyone can think of a platform that can put more than 0.07 wounds per point on wraiths, then that would be closer to optimal, if not, then the quad bolter is the most optimal. That's mathmatical fact.

Generally speaking, its easier to get 2 S5 shots than 1 S7 shot.
S7 is less than twice as effective as S5.

Therefore, S5 tends to be the way to go.

Good example: Fire Warriors are 9ppm. 18 points gets you 2 shots at 30" (4 at 15", plus lots of support options). Most S7 spam is more than 18 points per shot.

Pulse Rifles may be a great way to take them down. Haven't really gone through the numbers. But lots of shots from good range for few points as a troop? Probably gonna do it.

Example of bad S7? The broken Wave Serpent (yes, half its shots are S6).. It needs 6-7 rounds to kill equal points of Wraiths. And it takes far less than 6-7 rounds for Wraiths to run one down. (Yes, tarpitting - lots of discussion about that in the other threads).

So while s7 is the optimal S for wounding Wraiths, it usually won't be as points-efficient as a lot of S5 platforms.

Didn't we just do this thread last week?

When are people going to learn:
• Wraiths are not super killy, they are just durable while putting out some minor threat (much like everything else in the codex).
• You do not tarpit Wraiths, they tarpit you (they have the mobility to dictate what they get into combat with).
• If they're Decurion Harvest Wraiths, go for the accompanying Spyder first (though beware if they have Beamers).
• If you're shooting them with high S low AP weapons, unless it's S10, you probably just wasted your shots (high volume of fire, only).

Not super killy. But killy enough to handle most options in some codexes. So, if you don't tarpit them, they kill what they want and move on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If thyley can kill any 100-200pt unit they want, and then move on next turn (or possibly the turn after), they don't tarpit you so much as kill you.

A fire warrior (9pts right?) Puts on 0.02 wounds per point in rapid fire range if not assisted by marker lights. (2 x 1/2 x 1/2 x x 1/3)/9.
But the point you are making is right - st5 is generally more points efficient per wound than st7 platforms.

Wasn't saying it was more efficient than what you were showing. Was just demonstrating the flaw people seemed to get caught on in the S7-is-best line of discussion.

(Nice numbers, Poly.)

Seems we're on the same line of thinking again Bharring!

Pask punisher puts 0.015 wounds per points (realised I'm going to have to go into 3 dp for these to be comparable). Which is slightly worse than the normal punisher at 0.015 (this one was rounded down compared to the Pask being rounded up). These are both with heavy bolter side sponsoons.

A baal pred puts out 0.008 with hb side sponsoons. (I keep trying to tell people how overcosted baals are)

An inquisition razor with assault cannon and psybolts is probably the best st7 platform apart from the serpent with 0.014.

6 renegade autocannon teams with militia training (probably the cheapest source of 12 st7 shots) comes in at 0.013.

5 havocs with 4 hbs will put on 0.012 against the autocannons 0.013 so the st7 ever so slightly edges out there.

135pt wave serpent with scatter and shuriken puts out 0.017.


Just realised I'd not taken the wraiths save into accout with my quad bolters which takes them to 0.023. So firewarriors aren't too far off after all (0.019 to 3dp for firewarriors).


Edit: these numbers DO NOT count rp.

Seeing discussions like this makes me feel bad for being a Necron player, even though I rarely use Wraiths. >.>

If I can play Eldar this long, and not think that about myself, I'm sure you can feel fine about yourself while playing Necrons!

Everyone else's opinion, though, is another story...

Bharring wrote:
If I can play Eldar this long, and not think that about myself, I'm sure you can feel fine about yourself while playing Necrons!

Everyone else's opinion, though, is another story...

I mean, I did recently cause a friend to quit permanently, while using a footslog necron list with no wraiths. That doesn't really help at all.

But seeing this much grief over Wraiths is astounding. Though, in my eyes they don't seem to difficult to deal with. This is a shooting edition, and tons of people can spam good shooting. They're just as tough as Lychguard, just faster. And if they're using the formation, then just kill the Spyder. Then they come back down to standard survivability.

 skoffs wrote:
Didn't we just do this thread last week?

When are people going to learn:
• Wraiths are not super killy, they are just durable while putting out some minor threat (much like everything else in the codex).
• You do not tarpit Wraiths, they tarpit you (they have the mobility to dictate what they get into combat with).
• If they're Decurion Harvest Wraiths, go for the accompanying Spyder first (though beware if they have Beamers).
• If you're shooting them with high S low AP weapons, unless it's S10, you probably just wasted your shots (high volume of fire, only).

Not killy?

1 Wrath kills 0.33 TH/SS termie on the charge at ini5 while 1 termie kills 0.14 Wraith - 0.21 on the charge. And tht's before RP.

Wraiths are more killy than TH/SS termies, more durable, faster, fearless, ignore terrain and other models, strike at ini5 and don't need any transport. For the same cost. Don't fool yourself, fighting wraiths is like fighting 20 ppm biker terminators.

There is no doubt that wraits are pure

Luckilly, they're still tarpittable with a horde.

D weapons. They're not points-parity, but they will kill far far more things than just wraiths.

 koooaei wrote:
Just to compare non-RP crons to termie's durability.

6 wraiths need 36 wounds to be killed, 6 termies need all the same 36 wounds to be killed - without ap2 ofc.

Taking t5 into consideration, wraiths do need 1/6 more effort from weapons below s7 to get killed.

So, if you're up to killing wraiths with small arms fire, remember that they're just 1/6 tougher than termies when without RP. However, also don't forget that they're fearless and can't be kited all day unlike termies.

Very true, but most people don't try to kill Termies with weight of fire (which is an effective yet potentially inconsistent method of destroying them). Instead, they pack as much AP2 in their lists as possible, which becomes useless against Wraiths (and actualy a waste of points).

I'm really interested to see if the durability of the Necrons can really shake up the meta as you will have to work high volume of fire into a TAC list in case you get paired with Necrons.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Seeing discussions like this makes me feel bad for being a Necron player, even though I rarely use Wraiths. >.>

I need to line up my necrons and show them this thread. Mine are not half as survivable as the Math makes them out to be.

Not SUPER killy.
Take equal points of scythe-Lychguard or Flayed Ones and THEN you'll see super killy.
Difference being neither of those are all that survivable. Wraiths can last longer at the expense of offensive output.

1/6 chance that there is a difference because of the toughness. But more than that in survivability.

Pick a S. 4 seems to be the most common.
S4 vs T4? {4, 5, 6} wound
S4 vs T5? {5, 6} wound

So, S4 wounds T4 50% more than T5 (3:2). Despite only '4's changing.

To show this more extremely, here is an examples:
Termies, per model, are twice as resilient as Tactical vs ap4+, right? They fail on {1}, Tacticals fail on a {2, 3}.

So T5 is a lot more than 1/6 more survivable for S6 and under weapons.

(Must be crazy. I thought someone claimed they were 1/6 more survivable.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To clarify, I'm not sure Necrons are broken. I'm just unsure what most of my armies can do with Wraiths on the board.

Fragile wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Seeing discussions like this makes me feel bad for being a Necron player, even though I rarely use Wraiths. >.>

I need to line up my necrons and show them this thread. Mine are not half as survivable as the Math makes them out to be.

Haha, I believe it. There are a lot of times I feel I just can't roll a 4+ to save my life. >.>

 koooaei wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Didn't we just do this thread last week?

When are people going to learn:
• Wraiths are not super killy, they are just durable while putting out some minor threat (much like everything else in the codex).
• You do not tarpit Wraiths, they tarpit you (they have the mobility to dictate what they get into combat with).
• If they're Decurion Harvest Wraiths, go for the accompanying Spyder first (though beware if they have Beamers).
• If you're shooting them with high S low AP weapons, unless it's S10, you probably just wasted your shots (high volume of fire, only).

Not killy?

1 Wrath kills 0.33 TH/SS termie on the charge at ini5 while 1 termie kills 0.14 Wraith - 0.21 on the charge. And tht's before RP.

Wraiths are more killy than TH/SS termies, more durable, faster, fearless, ignore terrain and other models, strike at ini5 and don't need any transport. For the same cost. Don't full yourself, fighting wraiths is like fighting 20 ppm biker terminators.

There is no doubt that wraits are pure

Luckilly, they're still tarpittable with a horde.

I think he means that Wraiths have mediocre damage output, not that TH/SS would beat them in a fight. They won't, but that's a function of Wraith durability more than their killiness.

A Wraith (on the charge) kills 1.44 Ork Boyz, 0.833 Wyches (hey!), 0.778 MEQ, and 1.633 GEQ. That really is not very impressve. Not awful, but not very impressive.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree that GW flubbed Wraiths, probably as part of a miscalculated attempt to differentiate them from T. Praetorians.