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In my mind the Emperor would strike him down with his own hand in a fit of anger that Curze would call him a coward to his face. That the Emperor would kill one of his sons like that would likely cause some murmers of disention, especially amoune legions like the World Eaters, Death Guard, and Sons of Horus. I think some of the Loyalists may also find such a thing apauling and join in the rebelion. Perahps even those such as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Once they see that they are all expendable they may very well take issue with it. I think that the Curze Heresy may well be more successful than than the Horus Heresy was. Of course this is all just in my head and just for the sake of this hypothetical alternate history.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
In my mind the Emperor would strike him down with his own hand in a fit of anger that Curze would call him a coward to his face. That the Emperor would kill one of his sons like that would likely cause some murmers of disention, especially amoune legions like the World Eaters, Death Guard, and Sons of Horus. I think some of the Loyalists may also find such a thing apauling and join in the rebelion. Perahps even those such as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Once they see that they are all expendable they may very well take issue with it. I think that the Curze Heresy may well be more successful than than the Horus Heresy was. Of course this is all just in my head and just for the sake of this hypothetical alternate history.

I don't think there would be dissension just because the Emperor killed one of his sons. I mean, it's fairly likely at least one has been killed already (missing legions) and its not like he'd kill Curze for no reason, he maybe should've been put down anyway.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
In my mind the Emperor would strike him down with his own hand in a fit of anger that Curze would call him a coward to his face. That the Emperor would kill one of his sons like that would likely cause some murmers of disention, especially amoune legions like the World Eaters, Death Guard, and Sons of Horus. I think some of the Loyalists may also find such a thing apauling and join in the rebelion. Perahps even those such as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Once they see that they are all expendable they may very well take issue with it. I think that the Curze Heresy may well be more successful than than the Horus Heresy was. Of course this is all just in my head and just for the sake of this hypothetical alternate history.

He doesn't need to strike down Curze with his own hands. Besides, it wouldn't be the first legion to be wiped out so why would everyone freak out? They all know it's a possibility if they stray too far away from the Emperor's vision. Lorgar fears it too after the Emperor disciplines him in the ruins of Monarchia. Most other Primarchs would probably think Curze deserved it anyway or that it was inevitable and move on. A few like Angron might fear for their own existence but it wouldn't be a full blown Horus Heresy.

In case you didn't already know:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

 Pilau Rice wrote:

This is what I don't get on the whole Curze thing. He was, for want of a better word, afraid of what would happen. But he never seemed to do anything to prevent the outcome, he just went along with the visions he had and accepted his fate. Perhaps if he had used the visions as a warning, he might not have come up such a cropper. It's his whole inability to do anything different and his own deeds that led to his demise. He didn't have to be the CRAZZEEE one. He might have thought, hmm, so the Emperor is going to kill me, perhaps I should be a super smashing nice Primarch, stop skinning populations and he maybe won't smite me.

just my opinion of course.

I don't fully get it either even though I like the legion. It always seemed too fatalistic to me. It makes sense but one would think that Primarchs are above such things and try to at least do something about it.

 ImAGeek wrote:

I don't think there would be dissension just because the Emperor killed one of his sons. I mean, it's fairly likely at least one has been killed already (missing legions) and its not like he'd kill Curze for no reason, he maybe should've been put down anyway.

Eh, ninja'd!

Meh, my theory makes no less sense than some of what GW has put out there. The fluff is full of flaws and some of it can just be put down to bad writing. I am not a writer, I just made that up on the fly for the sake of this discussion.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Meh, my theory makes no less sense than some of what GW has put out there. The fluff is full of flaws and some of it can just be put down to bad writing. I am not a writer, I just made that up on the fly for the sake of this discussion.

It doesn't really make sense if it's already happened in-universe and the Primarchs didn't decide to rebel against the Emperor. There's already a precedent, why would Curze be different?

It makes more sense as head-canon but it's not really convincing fluff-wise.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Meh, my theory makes no less sense than some of what GW has put out there. The fluff is full of flaws and some of it can just be put down to bad writing. I am not a writer, I just made that up on the fly for the sake of this discussion.

Except that would make the whole Curze heresy thing based on a pretty big flaw, and while there are some flaws in GW stuff the whole thing isn't based on a big flaw.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Meh, my theory makes no less sense than some of what GW has put out there. The fluff is full of flaws and some of it can just be put down to bad writing. I am not a writer, I just made that up on the fly for the sake of this discussion.

It doesn't really make sense if it's already happened in-universe and the Primarchs didn't decide to rebel against the Emperor. There's already a precedent, why would Curze be different?

It makes more sense as head-canon but it's not really convincing fluff-wise.

We don't actually know much about what happened. I think, based on what Horus said, that XI was either too far gone when found to be useful (corrupted by Chaos or insane) or died soon thereafter.

As Horus lay in coma inside the Davinite temple after being wounded by Eugen Temba, Erebus gave him visions that showed him events from various points in time. In one of these experiences, Horus found himself in the geno-vault where he was created, and looked down upon the genetor-tanks containing the infant Primarchs. At one point he stops before tank XI and reflects upon the "untapped glories that lay within, knowing they would never come to pass".

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions#fn_29

Moreover, even between Primarchs that don't like each other, there is respect... even to the two lost Primarchs.

In the novel The Unremembered Empire, on Maccrage there is table and 21 chairs,built by the Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself for his brothers and the Emperor of Mankind.The chair backs were draped with banners,while the great seat,at the head of the long table was draped with pennant of Terra.Two of the other pennants were plain and made of bleached,un-dyed cloth.The other eighteen were the banners of Legiones Astartes.Also, Primarch Lion El'Jonson says ,that two of the Primarchs will never come,to which Guilliman replies:

"Yet their absence must be marked.Places must be left for them.That is simply honor."

I don't think any of the Primarchs would brush Curze off completely... except Dorn. Dorn's obviously gonna have a grudge after the beating Curze gave him.They might not turn on the Emperor, but I don't think the accusation that they are all to be expended would be one that *could* be brushed off lightly. After all, Curze did most of what he did with the Emperor's blessing, for a long time. Didn't something like 20 years pass between the destruction of Nostramo and the point where Curze got bad enough to be recalled to Terra? Aren't there already Primarchs that are psykers that could corroborate the truth (or at least confirm that Curze was telling what he saw as the truth)?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

This is what I don't get on the whole Curze thing. He was, for want of a better word, afraid of what would happen. But he never seemed to do anything to prevent the outcome, he just went along with the visions he had and accepted his fate. Perhaps if he had used the visions as a warning, he might not have come up such a cropper. It's his whole inability to do anything different and his own deeds that led to his demise.

Maybe he was doing something, which is why he really, really didn't like Jonson.
By the end he was bat gak crazy, but who would've believed him? The Emp? It could have been all part of his plan, if some are to be believed. Which could have been the vision of the future that the Emp wanted to see come to pass.

OK so I found those quotes about the possible killswitch on the Astartes.

Deliverance Lost p167

More than that, the gene-store contains the means to destroy what it created. That which I bound within the fibre of every Space Marine can be undone, unravelling their strength and purpose at a stroke.

Whats also intersting here is the unravelling purpose part, perhaps this is the flaw in the traitor gene-seed that allowed them to sway from the Emperor. Anyhoo, next quote.

Aurelian p64

In yet another, you defied the Anathema - the creature you name the Emperor , falsely considering it to be human - and you were executed by your brothers Curze and Russ. Your heart was cut from your corpse (How many hearts do Primarchs have, some 1 some 2?) and a great sorcery of alchemical and genetic power was wrought upon all who shared your bloodline. Your Legion was poisoned, reduced to madness, and finally annihilated by the fleets of the Ultramar Kingdon

If Curze had found out about such a means to destroy the Astartes, then some Primarchs might have had some concern.

the ancient wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

This is what I don't get on the whole Curze thing. He was, for want of a better word, afraid of what would happen. But he never seemed to do anything to prevent the outcome, he just went along with the visions he had and accepted his fate. Perhaps if he had used the visions as a warning, he might not have come up such a cropper. It's his whole inability to do anything different and his own deeds that led to his demise.

Maybe he was doing something, which is why he really, really didn't like Jonson.
By the end he was bat gak crazy, but who would've believed him? The Emp? It could have been all part of his plan, if some are to be believed. Which could have been the vision of the future that the Emp wanted to see come to pass.

Preventing that future might be part of why he decided to blow up Nostramo.


As I understand it (and someone correct me if I'm wrong)

1) Curze told Fulgrim what he'd seen

2) Fulgrim, being a gakky friend, broke confidence to share the information with the Primarch least capable of seeing a single flaw in the Emperor

3) Dorn confronted Curze like the lick-spittle he is, Curze when nuts and beat Dorn nearly to a pulp.

4) Curze was locked up to be tried for what he did

5) After trying to divine the future, Curze broke out of prison to ensure... what? That someone who is not the Emperor's light blew up Nostramo before it could happen as his vision foresaw


Curze actually did try and prevent his vision as best he could.

EmpNortonII wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
You're really determined on this silly idea.

I'd ask why you're a hater, but you're a fan of the Ultrasmurfs, so we all know why you gotta hate. If Rowboat Girlyman ain't the center of everything, you gotta hate.

It could be that.

Or it could be that everyone has told you how the idea doesn't make any sense and is built on unsound concepts. Honestly, your idea sounds like the extremely poor Space Wolves back story in the Dornian Heresy. It functions entirely on "Because I said so" rather than any kind of in-universe justification or believable character motivation.

Trying to strawman my argument won't help yours be any better. It does make you look bad though.

I still say some of it is no less believable than Horus listining to some chaplain that had just lied to him nonstop rather than his brother who wanted to help him and told the truth.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I still say some of it is no less believable than Horus listining to some chaplain that had just lied to him nonstop rather than his brother who wanted to help him and told the truth.

Unfortunately you're leaving out the context of said chaplain having taken the form of his friend and that Horus was wounded in a fugue state that the Chaos Gods were able to exploit by pouring honeyed words (and semi-false/misleading visions) into his mind. It isn't like Erebus just went up in his face and nagged him into the heresy, the situation was a lot more complex than you're putting it to be.

@Grimskul

Compared to the fall to Chaos of Eisenhorn, Horus's one seems to be rather underwhelming, rather easily avoidable and much, much less dramatic.

epronovost wrote:
@Grimskul

Compared to the fall to Chaos of Eisenhorn, Horus's one seems to be rather underwhelming, rather easily avoidable and much, much less dramatic.

For sure, I'm not trying to say it was masterfully written per se, but I was trying to show that Lord Blackscale's description of Horus' fall was underplayed and did not equate to the fanon-idea of how Curze's death would play out to the way they thought it would.

I think Horus would take the matter to heart, and likely act on it. Even before falling to Chaisehe was highly annoyed by the increasing amount of civilians in charge of the Imperium. A potential setting of the stage for removing the Astartes would be a very convenient explanation for it.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

EmpNortonII wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
You're really determined on this silly idea.

I'd ask why you're a hater, but you're a fan of the Ultrasmurfs, so we all know why you gotta hate. If Rowboat Girlyman ain't the center of everything, you gotta hate.

It could be that.

Or it could be that everyone has told you how the idea doesn't make any sense and is built on unsound concepts. Honestly, your idea sounds like the extremely poor Space Wolves back story in the Dornian Heresy. It functions entirely on "Because I said so" rather than any kind of in-universe justification or believable character motivation.

Trying to strawman my argument won't help yours be any better. It does make you look bad though.

On the contrary, your argument is based on three premises.

1) That the Primarchs often have no respect for one of their brothers, especially one that's a little off the beaten path.

In the novel The Unremembered Empire, on Maccrage there is table and 21 chairs,built by the Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself for his brothers and the Emperor of Mankind.The chair backs were draped with banners,while the great seat,at the head of the long table was draped with pennant of Terra.Two of the other pennants were plain and made of bleached,un-dyed cloth.The other eighteen were the banners of Legiones Astartes.Also, Primarch Lion El'Jonson says ,that two of the Primarchs will never come,to which Guilliman replies:

"Yet their absence must be marked.Places must be left for them.That is simply honor."

Roboute Guilliman, no matter what the lost Primarchs did, still gave them a seat at his table. *Some*one is going to wonder if Curze may be right. Especially one of the Primarchs that shares his psyker capabilities. Especially one that already has doubts about the Emperor's wisdom, like Magnus or Horus.

2) That the Chaos Gods are going to sit on their butts and do NOTHING to further their goal of corrupting the primarchs and tearing down the Emperor.

... which is, of course, silly.

3) That none of the primarchs already had doubts about what was to happen to them after the Great Crusade ended. Horus, at least, was nursing these thoughts in the very first frickin' book. Re-read Betrayal. Horus would have gotten just as strong a push from Curze's death as from Erebus. Horus knew we was being manipulated, and didn't care, because by Davin he was already that far along with his own doubts to flip easily. Horus STILL would have ended up leading the heresy... just without the conversion to Chaos.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


5) After trying to divine the future, Curze broke out of prison to ensure... what? That someone who is not the Emperor's light blew up Nostramo before it could happen as his vision foresaw


Curze actually did try and prevent his vision as best he could.

So he prevented the vision from happening by blowing it up. I don't see how that is preventing it at all. Like with all of his visions, he is the cause of what will come to pass.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I still say some of it is no less believable than Horus listining to some chaplain that had just lied to him nonstop rather than his brother who wanted to help him and told the truth.

Unfortunately you're leaving out the context of said chaplain having taken the form of his friend and that Horus was wounded in a fugue state that the Chaos Gods were able to exploit by pouring honeyed words (and semi-false/misleading visions) into his mind. It isn't like Erebus just went up in his face and nagged him into the heresy, the situation was a lot more complex than you're putting it to be.

He was in the form of his friend at first, but then was revealed to be a fraud. All the more reason Horus should have stopped believing him.

Further, this discussion, or at least my part in it, is taken from the stance "how might things have gone" and not "this is how things would have gone." It is all just imaginings and trowing ideas against the wall and seeing what would stick. I feel the Curze hate strong in this thread.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:

Further, this discussion, or at least my part in it, is taken from the stance "how might things have gone" and not "this is how things would have gone." It is all just imaginings and trowing ideas against the wall and seeing what would stick. I feel the Curze hate strong in this thread.

Which is what we are all doing as it is a hypothetical situation.

Who hates Curze, I don't for sure, I just think that the Curze heresy wouldn't be such a big deal as I can't imagine that any Primarch would miss him, or his Legion.

 EmpNortonII wrote:



As I understand it (and someone correct me if I'm wrong)

1) Curze told Fulgrim what he'd seen

2) Fulgrim, being a gakky friend, broke confidence to share the information with the Primarch least capable of seeing a single flaw in the Emperor

3) Dorn confronted Curze like the lick-spittle he is, Curze when nuts and beat Dorn nearly to a pulp.

4) Curze was locked up to be tried for what he did

5) After trying to divine the future, Curze broke out of prison to ensure... what? That someone who is not the Emperor's light blew up Nostramo before it could happen as his vision foresaw


Curze actually did try and prevent his vision as best he could.

Maybe before it became worse, he could have seen khaos storming the galaxy, the NL's, or someone like the Nostromon murder leading the charge.
Now this bit's important.

Batman would've nuked them all, AFTER trying to stop the ring leaders. Which he did try and do, sort off.

He scared Dorn straight.
He scared the Lion, who would have been dead if not for his little brother's.
That's what he did. Terrorize people to put them on the straight and narrow.

Only Sanaguinius, or Manus might have understood him.
Sang doesn't seem to have that sort of foresight, but managed to get along with everyone.
Ferrus went down the same bat gak crazy path Curze did, after he tried to make him understand.
Crawling out of a planet's core, how many time's would you think he died doing that. I suspect he's still alive, thank's to this perpetual nonsense.

Do i think he just did nothing and let the future take it's course, no, I think he did try to avoid the future he could see. But what he saw was just one version of the future.

If there's ever a misunderstood son, out of all of them, It's Curze.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

I can't imagine that any Primarch would miss him, or his Legion.

To the detriment of the all, I suspect your right Pilau.

the ancient wrote:

He scared Dorn straight.
He scared the Lion, who would have been dead if not for his little brother's.
That's what he did. Terrorize people to put them on the straight and narrow.

He didn't really scare either of them - he couldn't he really affect or convince them of anything so he tried to murder and break them instead. The Lion is described only as angry and then "almost bored" when fighting him. Curze only gets the upper hand when the fight turns into a brawl. And the Lion later nearly kills Curze and puts him in a coma in return so it's not like the Primarchs were all scared of Curze beating them up. We don't get to see Dorn scared either.

The Emperor putting Curze down would hardly have any effect - the Primarchs all held him in too little esteem. Isn't that his tragedy? That he can see what will happen but no one will listen to him.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
We don't get to see Dorn scared either.

Not true. Dorn admitted to be afraid of Curze in “The Lightning Tower”.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
We don't get to see Dorn scared either.

Not true. Dorn admitted to be afraid of Curze in “The Lightning Tower”.

I see, my mistake. I just assumed he was found unconscious.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
We don't get to see Dorn scared either.

Not true. Dorn admitted to be afraid of Curze in “The Lightning Tower”.

I see, my mistake. I just assumed he was found unconscious.

The Lightning Tower is set later on when Dorn is back on Terra, and he's talking to Malcador and says the only thing he's scared of is Curze, although he did nearly kill him so there's probably some ptsd type stuff going on. But the Lion doesn't seem overly scared of him, from what I remember, and Dorn wouldn't be scared of him if that hadn't happened.

The Ancient, did you mean Vulkan instead of Ferrus?

The Lightning Tower

Malcador nodded, and continued to deal the cards. 'Rogal, he is what you are truly afraid of, because he is fear incarnate. No other primarch uses terror as a weapon like Curze does. You are not afraid of Horus and his sallow heretics. You are afraid of the fear that sides with him, the night terror that advances alongside the traitors.' Dorn sat back and breathed out. 'He has haunted me, I confess. All this time, he has haunted me.' 'Because he was right. His visions were true. He saw this Heresy coming in his visions. That is the truth you fear. You wish you had listened.'

So it could be argued that he doesn't fear Curze himself, more what Curze brings with him, fear, terror and the truth.

Dorn also reflects later on

What are you afraid of? What are you really afraid of?

The Lightning Tower, thought Rogal Dorn. I understand its meaning: achievement obtained through sacrifice. I'm just afraid of what that sacrifice might be.

Dorns ultimate fear is losing the Emperor.

Here is another spin on things; What if Dorn had listened to Curze, and believed him instead of going all hulk rage on him? What of they got some of the others to prepare for this contingency and not be taken by surprise when Horus turned on them? The whole thing could still have ended differently if only one brother took him seriously, especially if it was one such as Dorn.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Here is another spin on things; What if Dorn had listened to Curze, and believed him instead of going all hulk rage on him? What of they got some of the others to prepare for this contingency and not be taken by surprise when Horus turned on them? The whole thing could still have ended differently if only one brother took him seriously, especially if it was one such as Dorn.

The problem with that is you can’t guarantee whether what Curze sees in his visions will actually come to pass or not. For all Dorn knew Curze’s “visions” could just be some maniac fantasy of his, a nightmare his broken mind has conjured up, or maybe his visions are only the half true in the same way the vision of the future Erebus presented to Horus was.


I agree with you that things could have turned out differently if someone had taken heed to Curze warnings, the same could be said for Magnus’ warning as well.

 Redcruisair wrote:

I agree with you that things could have turned out differently if someone had taken heed to Curze warnings, the same could be said for Magnus’ warning as well.

I certainly agree with you on Magnus' warning, it was most certainly dismissed to easily. I know it in part was put down to hubris, or can guess as much, but Magnus did risk everything by going against the Emperors decree. It must have been important for him to do that. It doesn't seem that there was any consideration given that Magnus was actually speaking the truth. But then I believe it was a quick 'better shut Magnus up before he spills the beans' on the Emperors behalf.

What is even more worrying about it is that Russ had had a warning from one of his very own men about Horus and then still chose to prosecute Magnus.

It seems like Daddy Emps dropped the ball a couple times here. But I believe he was so sure of his plan and his own power that he could not concieve anything going wrong and the moment it did he overreacted like the (power) drunken abusive father that he was.