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All I can think of is how much money I saved compared to GWs rrp.

I'm pretty sure that if we were to sell some of our used models on eBay (especially some of the first ones) they would certainly fuel this discussion....

- We didn't know to thin down paint - so our early Orks and Space Marines have much of their face texture globbed up by paint.

- We couldn't figure out (and sort of still can't figure out) how to get anything other than plastic model glue to stick together well. So, we use it. (I'm sure that's worth a few cringes.) When we use superglue, we always use too much (I think) and things fail to stick. Plus, one of us is a long way from having his drivers license - and so we stay away from the stuff which can glue his fingers together.

- To go one more, we really did have quite a few arms backward on first models. Same comment about drivers license applies here. But, the other piece of this is that when you go to assemble an Ork and you see that you can have more Dakka from your model if you use two right arms (both of which have the weapons you want) -- you go for it!

So, take the clock forward to the day when we might sell some on eBay, and I can certainly see how far more expert modelers would really wonder what we were thinking!

PS: Will also apologize in the future for the times when we have used epoxy to glue things together - again we can get it to work - where we have a really hard time with superglue on metal models....

Don't have all that many second hand models, specifically would prefer to spend the cash to avoid the trouble of stripping, however sometimes the deal is too good or the models unavailable otherwise..

managed to salvage a troll or two that appeared to be painted in nail varnish, least thats how it came off in acetone, wasn't like paint anyway.

2nd edition land speeder and a few metal/plastic marines came next. Painted in old GW paints with white as the primer, not amazingly good looking but obvious had some time spent on them - land speeder went into a jam jar of acetone which at least took the glue off as well.

Not ended up with any of the more interesting sounding models described here though, avoided buying stuff of people whos idea of a conversion is glue in a box then shake.

Helps my 40k orks never really got of the ground I guess otherwise I;d be the one producing the abominations

 Bonegrinder wrote:
All I can think of is how much money I saved compared to GWs rrp.

Really? I look on ebay here and there out of curiosity, and generally, I find that once you toss in shipping, the price that stuff sells for is only very slightly cheaper than what I can get at an FLGS -- and I don't get all the bits. On old kits, its no big deal, but on kits made in the last few years, there are so many parts are still useful bits after you build as many models as possible.

The stuff that is BNIB (or still on sprue) is funny. After shipping, usually it comes out to about what I would pay at a store ** after tax!! ** (which can often be avoided with piles of cash rather than pulling out the plastic ).

You know that Ral Partha Throne of Bone I mentioned earlier?

Well... I started stripping it.

And some parts of it were broken beneath the paint.

I don't know how that would have happened, and the paint remained whole, but I have a collection of skeleton arms, legs, and torsos that came apart as soon as the paint dissolved (And this was before I even pulled them from the stripper).

Turns out I am going to need to go but a new(er) Throne of Bone that is in one piece (or the "seven" pieces that the Kit is supposed to be in, and not the two-dozen pieces I have).

As for "knocking/bashing" people for painting.... As long as a person is painting to play a game, or to learn to paint better... I won't bash their attempts, and will try to be as encouraging as possible.

But it should be remembered:

If you praise everything, then praise is meaningless.

MB

@Talys, I bought Eldar twice on ebay, twice at 33% of RRP, twice full armies between 200 and 330 euros.

However, the work required to strip it, the damage it causes, the imperfect result and the lack of bits make it not such a great deal after all.

If I wasn't so poor, I'd rather spend the 1600 euros to get the new kits at 20% off instead.

I haven't once bought an already painted model from ebay, generally stick to primed at most cause easier to deal with. But seeing them there you can kind of think how long it too them and think about how now they're waiting to be sold to be stripped and maybe given and I guess in a way go on a new adventure with a hopefully better paint job.

 Talys wrote:

 Bonegrinder wrote:
All I can think of is how much money I saved compared to GWs rrp.

Really? I look on ebay here and there out of curiosity, and generally, I find that once you toss in shipping, the price that stuff sells for is only very slightly cheaper than what I can get at an FLGS -- and I don't get all the bits. On old kits, its no big deal, but on kits made in the last few years, there are so many parts are still useful bits after you build as many models as possible.

Really.

I didn't use Ebay much, but mostly did deals here, on bartertown, and at local swap meets and auctions. A few years ago I used those sources to put together a current-model Cadian force for about 1/3 of retail. Being willing to strip the paint from Tanks and masses of infantry can save you a bundle. A trio of Basilisks cost me about $50, IIRC!

This of course isn't as feasible for the latest-and-greatest models, but for building the core of most armies, you can save a huge amount of cash by buying used and painted. The other tack you can take is to buy larger lots of poorly painted models, strip them and resell them at a profit to fund the things you need that can only be found at retail. I've sold hundreds of used figs this way to fund other hobby purchases. Usually I still end up selling them at a massive discount, but when you buy at an even bigger discount everyone gets a deal and everyone is happy.

I've been keeping an eye on ebay for a while, looking for cheap Warmaster high elves. The last lot I got, a few days ago, were three units of spearmen and one of archers (six 40mm strips of 10mm figures per unit) for £2.50-£3 each. A fair bit below the £7-8 GW was selling them for, at the end, and way below the £25 that some ebay sellers are hoping for! A couple of units were painted, but a quick soak in Fairy Power spray and a quick scrub with a toothbrush under a running tap took care of 99% of that. (They soaked for a day, but with FPS they can be ready after 10-20 minutes; and the paint started to fall away under the tap, before the brush touched them.)

Same thing with IoB rat ogres, which I hunt for every now and then. A lot of those I get are unpainted; in fact the painted ones usually have a hefty markup, regardless of quality, though the mere fact they're painted wouldn't discourage me from buying and stripping them. Point is that the auctions for, say, 2 rat ogres for 99p-£10 get bid on, while I see Buy-it-Nows trying to sell single (badly to averagely) painted rat ogres for £17-£25 get passed over. I forget about rat ogres for a few weeks or months, and when I go back to look, the same ~£20 rat ogres - recognisable by their distinctive paintjobs or conversions - are still sitting there, unsold.

The moral is that you need to keep an eye out if you're looking for bargains for specific minis or ranges on ebay. The overly hopeful high prices are most visible to an occasional glance because they're left to gather dust on the shelf, like a box of Dreadfleet. The low price stuff gets sold and disappears.

As for stripping, I stand by my last post. I used to be in the same boat: I used Dettol (pine disinfectant) for a while, based on recommendations, but I found it so unsatisfying and unreliable - especially turning the paint to 'orrible glue if you get so much as the moisture in your breath on it - that I stopped stripping minis, and passed up painted minis on ebay or elsewhere. Then later, following other recommendations, I gave Fairy Power Spray a try. Brilliant. Like I say, the paint started rippling and lifting off minis after a couple of minutes, and most brushed off very easily. It's like it opened a door to another big room of cheap, second-hand minis.
Granted it has a bit of trouble with primer (proper primer, not GW's spray paint) but no worse than Dettol, and isopropyl alcohol (£15 a litre from Maplin) helps there too.

You just gotta find the right stuff to use. And compared to the usual goofy prices that GW thinks are a decent RRP, I consider the cost of stripper and the cost of a little effort to be a better investment, most of the time.

Having used Fairy Power Spray, I have no idea how people can say it works in 10-20 minutes.

I've soaked stuff in it for days and it still wasn't ready.

Some paint does fall away that easily, but you don't get primer or other paints off with just 10 minutes.

And yes, if you're poor, stripping makes financial sense. That goes for all the poor people and nearly every manual task you can take care of.

morgoth wrote:
Some paint does fall away that easily, but you don't get primer or other paints off with just 10 minutes.

Ah-durrr...

Vermis wrote:Granted it has a bit of trouble with primer (proper primer, not GW's spray paint) but no worse than Dettol, and isopropyl alcohol (£15 a litre from Maplin) helps there too.

I've had few bad experiences with FPS, and I know people still swear by Dettol. And folk elsewhere in the world have to use something different to those. Like I said, you just gotta find the right stuff.

* * *

And yes, if you're poor, stripping makes financial sense. That goes for all the poor people and nearly every manual task you can take care of.

Nice condescending, sweeping assumption. Why don't you just say it's women's work too, to put the cherry on the cake?

While I have models that I painted poorly when I started, I never had models that I built that were so bad they should have been destroyed. Always been very careful with the building portion. I've actually taken friends' metal models, stripped the pounds of gummed up glue and rebuilt them. Without them knowing I was doing it until I was finished. They were always appreciative. Saved a guy's Marneus Calgar/Belial conversion for him this way. And gave it its first paint job too.

 Vermis wrote:

And yes, if you're poor, stripping makes financial sense. That goes for all the poor people and nearly every manual task you can take care of.

Nice condescending, sweeping assumption. Why don't you just say it's women's work too, to put the cherry on the cake?

Actually I'm poor too.

What I mean is that if you can't throw away a few thousand bucks, you're effectively poor and that's the reason you believe doing manual work yourself is worth it financially.

morgoth wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

And yes, if you're poor, stripping makes financial sense. That goes for all the poor people and nearly every manual task you can take care of.

Nice condescending, sweeping assumption. Why don't you just say it's women's work too, to put the cherry on the cake?

Actually I'm poor too.

What I mean is that if you can't throw away a few thousand bucks, you're effectively poor and that's the reason you believe doing manual work yourself is worth it financially.

Maybe we're just losing something in translation here.

I would add that it's not always a matter of being able too spend a given amount of money. Sometimes it 's simply not wanting to spend alot or it could be wanting to spend less so you can buy more. There's lots of variations that don't necessarily link to poverty.

For myself, it comes down to not wanting to spend retail (I could pay MSRP, but I'd buy alot less figures) and the fact that I enjoy the process of stripping and restoring models.

This is just about the only game/hobby that expects you to do all the assembly and painting yourself, and spend more time on it than you will actually playing the game.

For many, that simply will not do. And I dont blame them. Remember that these are game pieces, and not necessarily works of art. You may turn them into works of art, but you may also do the same with a toilet seat, if you please. You are encouraged to make the models look nice, but you really dont have to, and many will not.

Imagine if Monopoly had a line of paints sold separately to paint the pewter game pieces. Just food for thought.

morgoth wrote:
@Talys, I bought Eldar twice on ebay, twice at 33% of RRP, twice full armies between 200 and 330 euros.

However, the work required to strip it, the damage it causes, the imperfect result and the lack of bits make it not such a great deal after all.

If I wasn't so poor, I'd rather spend the 1600 euros to get the new kits at 20% off instead.

Wow, what a nice order... at 1,600 euro, you should be able to get an amazing discount I hear you, though.

 Eilif wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

And yes, if you're poor, stripping makes financial sense. That goes for all the poor people and nearly every manual task you can take care of.

Nice condescending, sweeping assumption. Why don't you just say it's women's work too, to put the cherry on the cake?

Actually I'm poor too.

What I mean is that if you can't throw away a few thousand bucks, you're effectively poor and that's the reason you believe doing manual work yourself is worth it financially.

Maybe we're just losing something in translation here.

I would add that it's not always a matter of being able too spend a given amount of money. Sometimes it 's simply not wanting to spend alot or it could be wanting to spend less so you can buy more. There's lots of variations that don't necessarily link to poverty.

For myself, it comes down to not wanting to spend retail (I could pay MSRP, but I'd buy alot less figures) and the fact that I enjoy the process of stripping and restoring models.

There's no translation in this case

If you think that 2000 bucks is anything else than pocket money to throw away, you're poor.

In other words, for the people who are not poor, the time it takes you to handle the miniatures is immensely more valuable than the price of the miniatures themselves.

And those people, if they're money conscious, will also pay someone else to assemble and paint the miniatures, if assembling and painting is not what they find interesting, because that makes financial sense.

If I weren't so poor, I'd buy new kits only and have them assembled perfectly by somebody else. I would probably still paint them because I enjoy that. Fighting with sprues, mold lines, sandpaper and green stuff not so much.

 Eilif wrote:

 Talys wrote:

 Bonegrinder wrote:
All I can think of is how much money I saved compared to GWs rrp.

Really? I look on ebay here and there out of curiosity, and generally, I find that once you toss in shipping, the price that stuff sells for is only very slightly cheaper than what I can get at an FLGS -- and I don't get all the bits. On old kits, its no big deal, but on kits made in the last few years, there are so many parts are still useful bits after you build as many models as possible.

Really.

I didn't use Ebay much, but mostly did deals here, on bartertown, and at local swap meets and auctions. A few years ago I used those sources to put together a current-model Cadian force for about 1/3 of retail. Being willing to strip the paint from Tanks and masses of infantry can save you a bundle. A trio of Basilisks cost me about $50, IIRC!

This of course isn't as feasible for the latest-and-greatest models, but for building the core of most armies, you can save a huge amount of cash by buying used and painted. The other tack you can take is to buy larger lots of poorly painted models, strip them and resell them at a profit to fund the things you need that can only be found at retail. I've sold hundreds of used figs this way to fund other hobby purchases. Usually I still end up selling them at a massive discount, but when you buy at an even bigger discount everyone gets a deal and everyone is happy.

You know, this is what I see on eBay or Craigslist:
- a lot of people who want to sell their stuff for unreasonably high prices, that never move
- some people who put it on auction (maybe because it didn't sell). Often the auction sale price is unreasonably high, though sometimes, I guess it's ok-ish (but rarely spectacular)
- a few people sell their stuff at very low prices, and it sells in no time at all

I applaud those people who can find the steals on eBay! I look, mostly because I enjoy looking for OOP stuff (I almost never buy anything, though).

 Talys wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

 Talys wrote:

 Bonegrinder wrote:
All I can think of is how much money I saved compared to GWs rrp.

Really? I look on ebay here and there out of curiosity, and generally, I find that once you toss in shipping, the price that stuff sells for is only very slightly cheaper than what I can get at an FLGS -- and I don't get all the bits. On old kits, its no big deal, but on kits made in the last few years, there are so many parts are still useful bits after you build as many models as possible.

Really.

I didn't use Ebay much, but mostly did deals here, on bartertown, and at local swap meets and auctions. A few years ago I used those sources to put together a current-model Cadian force for about 1/3 of retail. Being willing to strip the paint from Tanks and masses of infantry can save you a bundle. A trio of Basilisks cost me about $50, IIRC!

This of course isn't as feasible for the latest-and-greatest models, but for building the core of most armies, you can save a huge amount of cash by buying used and painted. The other tack you can take is to buy larger lots of poorly painted models, strip them and resell them at a profit to fund the things you need that can only be found at retail. I've sold hundreds of used figs this way to fund other hobby purchases. Usually I still end up selling them at a massive discount, but when you buy at an even bigger discount everyone gets a deal and everyone is happy.

You know, this is what I see on eBay or Craigslist:
- a lot of people who want to sell their stuff for unreasonably high prices, that never move
- some people who put it on auction (maybe because it didn't sell). Often the auction sale price is unreasonably high, though sometimes, I guess it's ok-ish (but rarely spectacular)
- a few people sell their stuff at very low prices, and it sells in no time at all

I applaud those people who can find the steals on eBay! I look, mostly because I enjoy looking for OOP stuff (I almost never buy anything, though).

That's true, you need to have a decent window, searching army deals every day for maybe twenty days if you want to find a good deal that suits you.

Just going on ebay and expecting a bargain is not going to happen.

IMO, the best thing to do for somebody with the energy would be to perma camp ebay for all armies, snatch all the good deals and resell what sells when it sells.

Yet another simple business anyone can do if they have the motivation

morgoth wrote:

There's no translation in this case

If you think that 2000 bucks is anything else than pocket money to throw away, you're poor.

In other words, for the people who are not poor, the time it takes you to handle the miniatures is immensely more valuable than the price of the miniatures themselves.

And those people, if they're money conscious, will also pay someone else to assemble and paint the miniatures, if assembling and painting is not what they find interesting, because that makes financial sense.

If I weren't so poor, I'd buy new kits only and have them assembled perfectly by somebody else. I would probably still paint them because I enjoy that. Fighting with sprues, mold lines, sandpaper and green stuff not so much.

I love the painting myself; it's most the fun of the hobby, IMO. I don't like to fight with the sprues, mold lines and all that. The problem is, I paint my models semi-assembled (because I like to paint all the parts, even the difficult to reach areas), so even if money were of no object (which isn't the case, with me!) the person preparing the pieces would have one heck of a time keeping them all together

Besides, I'm a greedy little piggy, and if I had a choice between one set prepared and two sets unprepared, I would always go for the two sets (or maybe sneak in a third!) Which, I guess, is why I have a lifetime supply of stuff I'll never get around to painting hahaha.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:
IMO, the best thing to do for somebody with the energy would be to perma camp ebay for all armies, snatch all the good deals and resell what sells when it sells.

Sweet... so 40k is just like... EverQuest!!

 Talys wrote:


Sweet... so 40k is just like... EverQuest!!

I don't know, do you lose levels when you die ?

Wait until prime time (USA), do a search for '40K -bit -bits -bitz', sort by auctions and ending soonest. Just look for things ending soon and going well under price that you want, and enter a lowball bid. Remember to factor in the shipping. Dont expect to get anything, but sometimes-- you do!

Another trick is if you play, or ever wanted to play an army that is in the bi-yearly 'Storm' boxed set, wait until it comes out, and check out ebay, looking for stuff in the set. I have a team of $20 carnifexes, and I couldnt care less if they re good or not. I always wanted them anyway!

I have not brought a single GW retail priced product in all my years of the hobby (I own about 4k pts of Orks), unless it was a misc accessory (dice,template,paint,tac cards)

However I recently purchased a what it looked like "primed" models, needless to say I proceeded to take off mold lines because they were not off, after which I proceeded to remove primer because I could not stand looking at them.

3 weeks later and quite larger biceps from scrubbing boyz sealed the deal for me to never purchase primed/painted models off eBay unless it is a very good deal.

1. Because it requires a lot of dedication (which paid off)
2. Cost of solvent + original WILL add up

That being said, shipping is a large factor when buying miniatures online but some things are true:

1. if you don't care about the aspect of putting the model together yourself (which is somewhat gratifying) you will be alright with buying them online.

2. you have to spend a lot of time searching for what you are looking for as mentioned because things come and go.

3. not sure if its just me but some models I've gotten have that wretched smoke smell on them.. if it bothers you, might turn you off

All of this combined is a nice experience as I believe it adds character to your army, I remember reading a comment on swap shop forms some time ago "give these minis a new home"

If you are willing to put effort into looking and waiting for a deal, you will pride and cherish your collection!

morgoth wrote:

Maybe we're just losing something in translation here.

There's no translation in this case

If you think that 2000 bucks is anything else than pocket money to throw away, you're poor.

Translation or no, your definition of poverty doesn't square with english or reality.

Poverty requires a significantly higher level of financial difficultly than just not being able to drop 2k on an army. I certainly can't drop 2k right now, but am not in any kind of financial hardship and would never claim to be poor. It would be insulting to my neighbors, many of whom are truely poor and face actual financial hardship.

 Eilif wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Maybe we're just losing something in translation here.

There's no translation in this case

If you think that 2000 bucks is anything else than pocket money to throw away, you're poor.

Translation or no, your definition of poverty doesn't square with english or reality.

Poverty requires a significantly higher level of financial difficultly than just not being able to drop 2k on an army. I certainly can't drop 2k right now, but am not in any kind of financial hardship and would never claim to be poor. It would be insulting to my neighbors, many of whom are truely poor and face actual financial hardship.

My definition of poverty is not having enough money to be a free man.
In other words, if you can't afford not working without losing basic comforts, you're poor.

Anyway, poor sounds absolute but the only thing that can be measured is poorer, so why bother arguing

There is nothing insulting with raising or lowering the bar by the way, I know some Indian fellows who think they're rich just because they're richer than most there, a bit like you think your neighbors would qualify as poor for being under your threshold of poverty.

Anyway, off-topic

@ the debate over poorness... Can we just substitute "poor" for "not rich" and then everyone can be happy?

morgoth wrote:

 Talys wrote:


Sweet... so 40k is just like... EverQuest!!

I don't know, do you lose levels when you die ?

ROFL! Well in Rogue Trader days, our ICs (I think they were called Personalities then) got to keep their gear (or reroll just parts of it) if they lived!!

I do think camping was my least favorite aspect of MMORPGs. Especially when 15 people are there and only 1 will get a drop. I would rather clean mold lines!

As to the OP's question, I would add that my opinion towards terrible paint jobs isn't negative as in "what were they thinking". Rather, it's a kind of thankfulness that the paintjob was bad enough to lower the value to what I want to pay. If it weren't for terrible paint jobs, there wouldn't be nearly as many deals to be had and my collection of miniatures would be much smaller.

 Talys wrote:
@ the debate over poorness... Can we just substitute "poor" for "not rich" and then everyone can be happy?

If you meant sustitute "not rich" for "poor" then that would be accurate. What morgoth is describing is "not rich". Being "poor" has a different definition, regardless of what his personal "definition" might be. The actual and widely accepted english definition being:

: having little money or few possessions : not having enough money for the basic things that people need to live properly
: having a very small amount of something
: not good in quality or condition

Sorry to harp about this, but words matter. They have actual definitions that mean something.

What Eilif said. And even if Morgoth meant 'not rich' it's still condescending. Your wildly overpriced plastic toy soldiers are not a status symbol. Not by a long shot. That other people don't shell out the full price every time isn't an indication that they can't; and even if they can't it's not a stigma to go for the same, quite usable minis from a cheaper source.

 Eilif wrote:

If you meant sustitute "not rich" for "poor" then that would be accurate. What morgoth is describing is "not rich". Being "poor" has a different definition, regardless of what his personal "definition" might be. The actual and widely accepted english definition being:

: having little money or few possessions : not having enough money for the basic things that people need to live properly
: having a very small amount of something
: not good in quality or condition

Sorry to harp about this, but words matter. They have actual definitions that mean something.

I stand by my words.

You and I do not have enough money for the basic things that people need to live properly.

I typically won't even inspect used stuff I buy to that extent of wondering its past.

I throw it right in the green bath upon acquisition. Very rarely do I get anything that I can 'save' by not stripping myself. I once got a really nicely painted drop pod that was done in Space Wolf Grey and it pained me to strip it, but oh well.