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"The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative"

Regardless of whether the unit is the target of the blessing or not the benefit can only be gained once, it's utterly unambiguous wording.

I do not play Chaos Daemons either, nor do I play against them, I have absolutely nothing to gain or lose in this argument, I'm just being logical and impartial.

Myliel wrote:
"The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative"

Regardless of whether the unit is the target of the blessing or not the benefit can only be gained once, it's utterly unambiguous wording.

I do not play Chaos Daemons either, nor do I play against them, I have absolutely nothing to gain or lose in this argument, I'm just being logical and impartial.

Sure, that's why you accused me of being partial, because you have nothing to lose

Anyway, yes it's unambiguous, what you don't realize is what "The benefit of any one particular blessing" actually means, or even the word "unit" for that matter.


I don't know how you people can keep being behind that stance when it's wrong in so many ways:


1. Cursed Earth only affects models, not units.

can only be gained once per unit per turn

2. In every single case, this is what the blessing gives to its target, this limitation is there to cover any blessing targeting a unit, since all blessings targeting the psyker already have that limitation built-in.

the benefit of any one particular blessing

3. Very clearly the intent is that it stacks

This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save

4. If it applied to Cursed Earth, moving units around would make them unable to gain the Cursed Earth bonus again since they already gained that once.

can only be gained once per unit per turn

And you still don't have a single argument against my point.

Morgoth is exactly right guys. I want to try to illustrate this without it being too much more confusing, but you guys will have to imagine this in your heads or you can put out proxy models for yourselves to see what the rules for this psychic power mean and is saying.

Lets say you have:
2 daemon princes - each with the "cursed earth" psychic power.
&
4 pink horror models - in 1 unit.

The 2 daemon princes are 24 inches away from one another. One to the right, the other to the left. And they both successfully cast "cursed earth"
1 of the pink horror models is within 10" to the daemon prince on the left = 4+ invul save for that model.
1 of the other pink horror models is within 10" to the daemon prince on the right = 4+ invul save for that model.
The 3rd pink horror model is within 12" of both the daemon princes = 3+ invul save for that model.
The last and 4th pink horror is not within 12 inches of either daemon prince = 5+ invul save for that model.

I hope this helps. The unit in its entirety isn't effected by the +1 invul save only models.

Also to clarify even more (in this example): the daemon prince is the target of "Cursed Earth". The daemon prince can't be targeted again by CE in the same turn. The benefit of CE is the daemon prince (the target) being able to give any daemon "model" (not unit) within 12" of himself a +1 invul save. The one daemon prince can't give the +1 invul save to a model twice because the DP can't be targeted again by CE. Another DP that has been the target of CE can now give his 12" +1 invul save on any daemon model within 12" of him as well. So it is possible for a model to benefit from each Daemon Princes's 12" ability at the same time.
Also if you are playing against an opponent with a daemon like (an obliterator for example), if the daemon prince gets within 12" of him, the obliterator model would get +1 invul.

To simplify CE gives the target psyker the ability to give any daemon model within 12" of it a +1 invul save. CE isn't giving +1 invul save, CE is giving the psyker the ability to give models +1 invul save.

I hope this helps.

This is ridiculous.

If a model is getting +1 invul as a result of Cursed Earth, then it is gaining benefits from cursed earth.

It is that simple. The fact that it targets the psyker doesn't prevent it from giving benefits to other units.

Sorry bud, but morgoth and you are exactly wrong. The rule clearly stated that you cannot gain the benefit of a blessing more than once. You can fluff it up all you like, but you cannot bypass that basic rule. No matter how many CEs you have in range, you can only get a +1 to your save.

Fragile wrote:
Sorry bud, but morgoth and you are exactly wrong. The rule clearly stated that you cannot gain the benefit of a blessing more than once. You can fluff it up all you like, but you cannot bypass that basic rule. No matter how many CEs you have in range, you can only get a +1 to your save.

The problem is not what the rule states, the problem is that you do not understand what that rule means.

The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative

In other words, you don't have a point because the rule you reference explicitly does nothing to Cursed Earth, whether or not the benefit is the aura or the effect of the aura.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:
This is ridiculous.

If a model is getting +1 invul as a result of Cursed Earth, then it is gaining benefits from cursed earth.

It is that simple. The fact that it targets the psyker doesn't prevent it from giving benefits to other units.

Once again, "benefits".

If you need to reword the rule to make it agree with you, that means you're wrong.

Besides, the rule says unit and Cursed Earth says model.

And every single other blessing, for which the no stacking blessings rule is in place, has its benefit equal to the effect it applies on its target.

But hey, if you want to be wrong for another dozen pages, don't bother reading the BRB, keep on arguing without any support, I don't think anyone will mind.

morgoth wrote:
If you need to reword the rule to make it agree with you, that means you're wrong.

Which is funny coming from you since you're the one making up the rule that only the targeted psyker benefits from cursed earth.

 CrownAxe wrote:

morgoth wrote:
If you need to reword the rule to make it agree with you, that means you're wrong.

Which is funny coming from you since you're the one making up the rule that only the targeted psyker benefits from cursed earth.

See you've done it again.

Do you even realize that every single time you talk about it you have to twist the words to make them agree with you ?

"Gaining the benefit of a blessing" is not the same thing as "benefiting from a blessing".

There are many more things that match the second wording that do not match the first.

If you don't get that, I don't think I can help you any further though.

morgoth wrote:
"Gaining the benefit of a blessing" is not the same thing as "benefiting from a blessing".

Yeah it is.

You guys will have to forgive morgoth, he's on a quota in regard to Cursed Earth threads and has to do one of these every so often or his supervisor will be all over him.

See also: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/622199.page

If you're thinking about replying to him as part of an attempt to convince him to change his opinion, you'll probably want to read that thread first, and then just...not.

text removed.

reds8n

Fragile Actually the rule says a "unit" can't, that doesn't mean individual models of that unit can't. That's why CE is worded specifically to effect models and not units, so that this unfortunate misconception wouldn't happen. I didn't realize it until morgoth pointed it out. It's very obvious. The benefit is not +1 invulnerable save, the benefit is the ability for the psyker to give any model within 12" a +1 invulnerable save. The psyker is the target and the psyker can't get cursed earth put on it twice in the same turn, neither can the target psyker have the benefit of giving out the 12" +1 invulnerable save modifier more than once in one turn to models. The blessing rule word "unit" is not the same as the CE rule "model".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A better example of this to maybe explain. If one model in a unit is within rapid fire range, that doesn't mean the entire unit makes rapid fire shots. Just the one model will be represented with the rolling of an extra die. So just like if one model is effected by the psykers new ability, given to it by cursed earth, it would get a +1 invulnerable save. The ability given to the psyker doesn't care about units and doesn't target units, it doesn't even "target" models. The ability that the psyker has just effects any model within 12" of him. It's very understandable.

"The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative"

I would agree with the consensus. Even though it might "feel" like multiple Cursed Earth should work, and the wording of "Models" not "Units", the definition above is quite clear.
The benefit of a blessing (+1 Invun save) can only be gained 1ce per Unit, per Turn.

This means that if Deamon Unit 1 is at about 9"-15" from "Cursed Earth Psyker #1" and about 3"-10" from "Cursed Earth Psyker #2", "The Unit" can only benefit from one of those spells, as they are the same.

So if you select "Cursed Earth Psyker #1", only half of your models would get a benefit, but "the Unit" is affected by Cursed Earth (benefits), and so "Cursed Earth Psyker #2" would have no effect.
Even on the models without any benefit at all.
(So you would probably choose to be affected by "Cursed Earth Psyker #2" instead )

morgoth wrote:
[
"Gaining the benefit of a blessing" is not the same thing as "benefiting from a blessing".

.

This is simply trolling.

Fragile Actually the rule says a "unit" can't, that doesn't mean individual models of that unit can't.

Leatherjacket9, show me a model in the game that is not part of a unit to use your example on. If one model gains the benefit, the unit gained the benefit.

The ability that the psyker has just effects any model within 12" of him. It's very understandable.

It is very understandable, why your arguing the opposite I cannot fathom. One benefit per blessing is pretty simple.

it doesn't matter who the target of the power is, if any unit is benefitting from it, it can not get the benefit of the same power from any other source.

benefitting from the blessing is having the rule of the blessing apply to the unit.

Is the benefit applying to an unit? Yes, then the same benefit (source does not matter) cannot apply to that unit.

The ability the psyker has gives the blessing to units within 12" of the psyker.

If a member of a unit has benefitted, the unit has benefitted. Undeniably so.

And that's Absolutley the same thing as "gaining the benefit" - it's called using the past tense of a word.



Edit: and Morgoth, to save you any more thread necromancy on this topic, "per turn" really does mean "per player turn" not "game turn".

It's covered in the section "The Turn" in "Game Turns and Player Turns".
"Whenever a rule refers to ‘a turn’ it always means ‘player turn’ unless it specifically refers to a ‘game turn’."

Those trolls trying to prove their Cursed Earth shenanigans by not understanding basic logic in english is appalling..

So you believe that if 29/30 members of a unit gain a boost, the unit has in no way benefited at all?
Good luck with that.

Nice long post, but your conclusion is just as flawed. You cannot gain the benefit (+1 to your invuln) more than once.

Your trying to claim that since GW did not word CE to act like the old Ork KFF or the LVO ruling on the Void Shield Generator that is somehow changes the meaning of the rule. They are very specific that only Models within 12" gain the benefit. Therefore you cannot string a unit across the board with only 1 model within 12" giving the whole unit a +1 Invuln.

When a model goes to make an invuln save, it can only apply a single +1 to its save, regardless of how many CE's are in range. That is RAW.

So it's benefitted from something, but that something didn't come from the Blessing?

So what is the benefit from?

der soulstealer wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
So it's benefitted from something, but that something didn't come from the Blessing?

So what is the benefit from?

The:

definite article
1.
(used, especially before a noun, with a specifying or particularizing effect, as opposed to the indefinite or generalizing force of the indefinite article a or an):
the book you gave me; Come into the house.

Benefit:

noun
1.
something that is advantageous or good; an advantage:
He explained the benefits of public ownership of the postal system."

to Benefit:

to derive benefit or advantage; profit; make improvement:
He has never benefited from all that experience.

One is a specific advantage, the other is derive benefit or advantage, unspecified.

Tenet #6

Do you really think that a company who wrote a FAQ on jinking that said the exact opposite of what it was intended to say is going to make such a grammatical distinction?

So Advantage or Advantage?
And neither comes from the Blessing?

Someone cast Cursed Earth and a model's save goes up, but that didn't come from the Cursed Earth?
We've moved beyond madness now.

I see how some guys want to say that a unit is benefiting from CE because one model is within 12" of the psyker.

CE is targeting the psyker. CE was only cast on the psyker. The psyker received the CE blessing. Any daemon model within 12" of the psyker is being effected by the ability that CE gave the psyker.

I don't know how to explain it any clearer. We'll just have to agree to disagree. With the randomness of daemons it has the potential to come up, but 1st you would need two psykers to role a 1 to get this power in the 1st place (which isn't guaranteed).

Leatherjacket9 wrote:
CE is targeting the psyker. CE was only cast on the psyker. The psyker received the CE blessing. Any daemon model within 12" of the psyker is being effected by the ability that CE gave the psyker.

That is how a unit is benefiting from Cursed Earth. That daemon is a part of a unit of daemons. It may only affect one model in the unit, but that one model is enough to say that the unit was affected.

Leatherjacket9 wrote:
I see how some guys want to say that a unit is benefiting from CE because one model is within 12" of the psyker.

CE is targeting the psyker. CE was only cast on the psyker. The psyker received the CE blessing. Any daemon model within 12" of the psyker is being effected by the ability that CE gave the psyker.

I don't know how to explain it any clearer. We'll just have to agree to disagree. With the randomness of daemons it has the potential to come up, but 1st you would need two psykers to role a 1 to get this power in the 1st place (which isn't guaranteed).

Because it doesn't matter one single bit that it was cast on the Psyker. Not even a little.

The benefit of the power is not limited to just the model it was cast on. You can see that clearly because other models just had their save increased! They DIRECTLY benefitted from the blessing. Even if you try and claim it was an indirect benefit, they have still benefitted.

There is simply no way a model can have its save increased by CE, and make a claim they didn't benefit from that casting. No way at all.

There's no "aura" coming off the Psker that somehow isn't from the cursed earth blessing.

There is a difference between a model benefitting, and a unit benefitting however. I'm not saying they would stack, just that a unit overall could have models benefitting from multiple different cursed earths. For example if I was to fire a helfrost weapon at a unit,, and cause a wound, it is not the unit that takes the strength test for suffering the wound, but the individual models that were wounded as a result

 statu wrote:
There is a difference between a model benefitting, and a unit benefitting however. I'm not saying they would stack, just that a unit overall could have models benefitting from multiple different cursed earths. For example if I was to fire a helfrost weapon at a unit,, and cause a wound, it is not the unit that takes the strength test for suffering the wound, but the individual models that were wounded as a result

Units are made up of models.

You're talkng about the entire unit being effected. Completely different.
If one model is killed, then the unit has been effected.
One model gets a boost, the unit has benefited. The entire unit? No. But it has benefited.

You're saying because the entire unit wasn't effected, the unit in no way benefitted.
29/30 models in a unit get +5 to all stats (made up hypothetical) and the unit has in no way benefitted? Seriously?

Cursed earth affects models however. Taking your argument to an extreme you could say that since unit a was effected by cursed earth, the whole army has been effected by it, therefore no one else would be able to gain any benefit

Edit, just had a thought, if a unit has benefitted from cursed earth as soon as one model has been affected by it, does this then mean that should that model take a wound and die, that no other models in the unit can benefit from the same cursed earth as they would have technically benefitted from it twice?

 statu wrote:
Cursed earth affects models however.

And are those models are a part of a unit? Yes or no.