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Because the previous topic about this was over 3 months ago, I am posting this because I believe there is a part of this argument that is being missed due to maybe biasness or wrongful interpretation. But I didn't want to upset any of the previous posters as this topic occured back in november 2014. (No offense to anyone is intended).

I've noticed two problems with the argument for Cursed Earth's blessing stacking from another Cursed Earth blessing. Before you reply too quickly... I think it really needs to be an FAQ or an errata on it though.

Problem 1. Most people that don't believe it stacks do so with the argument that the main rules of the book concerning blessings supercede the Cursed Earth rule for its own blessing.

Problem 2 (and a bigger problem than Problem 1). Is the interpretation or how you define "other". It seems simple, but it's the biggest reason why I've seen this debate go on for so long in forums and in hobby shops.

This is how I address the two problems I see with "Cursed Earth" (while trying not to be biased and as completely reasonable as possible).

The 1st problem: I think if Cursed Earth were cumulative with itself, it would over shadow the main rule for blessings saying that it isn't. If specific rules for Cursed Earth contradicts or is different from the general rule for Blessings, do the specific rules for Cursed Earth supercede or take precedence over the main general rule?

The 2nd problem: This is the biggest KO for or against the stacking on itself argument. A lot of times we read based off of what we are more inclined to believe or want a word to be, but here... it is possibly a problem. The word "other" as in "any other" can have two meanings. Other can be defined as "different" and Other can be defined as "additional. If you look up the definition of Other the 1st definition (depending on the dictionary) means different. The 2nd definition means additonal. So when Cursed Earth says "any other modifier" is it saying "any different modifier" or is it saying "any additonal modifier"? This is the bases of the argument on both sides of the fence. I believe GW should really come out with how they intended this word "OTHER" to be defined under Cursed Earth (if they haven't already).

NOTE: My other(additonal) lol query and observation is why does Cursed Earth so specifically state that it is cumulative with "any other" modifiers. If the word "Other" is meant to mean different... why say it here. We already know that blessings are cumulative with "different" modifiers. Sanctuary, Iron Arm, and Warp Speed don't need to state "any other". Which leads me believe that the word "other" for the Cursed Earth rule means "additional". If you lean towards the 1st definition of the word "other" meaning "different" then why would GW use the word "different" under the rules for blessings, but use the word "other" under the rules for Cursed Earth.

If Cursed Earth is cumulative with "Any Additional" modifiers then it would stack on itself. If Cursed Earth is cumulative with "Any different" modifiers, then it would not stack on itself.

"The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative"
This is pretty concrete. Cursed Earth will not stack with Cursed Earth, but will stack with things like the Grimoire.

Cursed Earth is a blessing that grants one model the ability to give all models within 12" a better invulnerable daemon save.

If you were to kill that model, the cursed earth would cease to exist. That model is the recipient of the blessing, which in turn affects models around him (and not him).

It thus stands to reason that granting that ability to two different models would bless two different models with the ability to grant a better invulnerable save to all models within 12".

Which in turn means that all models within 12" of two Cursed Earth Blessed models would benefit of two +1's to their invulnerable save.


In other words, cursed earth itself does not stack because it's a blessing, but the effects of two different models blessed with cursed earth stack because there is nothing to prevent it.

I think Morgoth is on the right track

You are not "casting" Curse Earth on a model twice. Psyker cast it on himself, while Psyker B (in a different unit) also casts it on himself.

Curse Earth has only been cast once on 2 different Pysker, who separate benefit from the Blessing.

This issue is whether you believe the "Benefit" is projecting the +1 invul bubble, or the +1 invul itself.

If the "Benefit" of Curse Earth is the +1 invul, then clearly, Grendel is correct. A model within range of 2 Psykers with Curse Earth can only gain the benefit once.'

However, if the "Benefit" of Cursed Earth is projecting the bubble, then each Psyker would only get it once, but a model in 2 bubbles would gain +2 invul.

RAI, I believe it is meant to cover situations like this to avoid stacking, but RAW seems to give some wiggle room. HIWPI, no stacking.

morgoth wrote:
Cursed Earth is a blessing that grants one model the ability to give all models within 12" a better invulnerable daemon save.

If you were to kill that model, the cursed earth would cease to exist. That model is the recipient of the blessing, which in turn affects models around him (and not him).

It thus stands to reason that granting that ability to two different models would bless two different models with the ability to grant a better invulnerable save to all models within 12".

Which in turn means that all models within 12" of two Cursed Earth Blessed models would benefit of two +1's to their invulnerable save.


In other words, cursed earth itself does not stack because it's a blessing, but the effects of two different models blessed with cursed earth stack because there is nothing to prevent it.

This is BS.
Cursed Earth targets the Psyker himself who cast the power, and any and all Daemon models, (friend AND foe), within it's 12" range. The only way the power will not target the caster, is if they themselves do not have the 'Daemon' USR. (as the power only applies to such models)

Likewise, any single unit can only ever gain a single +1 to their Daemonic invuln save, no matter how many different Cursed Earth bubbles they're in range of, due to the basic rules of Blessing powers forbidding the ability to stack multiples of the same power onto a unit.

The reason for Cursed Earth's "This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon's invulnerable save..." stipulation, is that there are numerous other ways to both enhance and/or neuter a Daemon's invuln save...
Banishment for example from Santic, the Warpstorm table, the Grimoire of True Names, the Mark of Tzeentch - these can all have an additional effect on a Daemon's save, hence why Cursed Earth is written to be "cumulative with any other modifiers".

It's quite cut and dry.

@Experiment 626

Here's what our lord and savior BRB has to say:

Our Lord BRB wrote:Cursed Earth is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, all models with the Daemon special rule (friend or foe) within 12" of the Psyker have a +1 bonus to their invulnerable save (normally increasing it to 4+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save. In addition, whilst the power is in effect, friendly units with the Daemon special rule will not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve so long as the first model is placed within 12" of the Psyker.

A blessing (that cannot stack) that targets the Psyker.


It affects a lot more units, like many other things in the game affect a lot more units without directly targeting them.


But the blessing targets the Psyker only. That blessing has a wide-ranging effect. Good for it.

Morgoth, the fact that CE only targets the psyker has nothing to do with it. The restriction doesn't say anything about targeted units.

morgoth wrote:
@Experiment 626

Here's what our lord and savior BRB has to say:

Our Lord BRB wrote:Cursed Earth is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, all models with the Daemon special rule (friend or foe) within 12" of the Psyker have a +1 bonus to their invulnerable save (normally increasing it to 4+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save. In addition, whilst the power is in effect, friendly units with the Daemon special rule will not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve so long as the first model is placed within 12" of the Psyker.

A blessing (that cannot stack) that targets the Psyker.


It affects a lot more units, like many other things in the game affect a lot more units without directly targeting them.


But the blessing targets the Psyker only. That blessing has a wide-ranging effect. Good for it.

1. The Blessing targets the Psyker himself. If he has the Daemon USR, he thus gains +1 to his Daemonic invuln as per the Blessing's effect.

2. The Blessing itself has an area of effect range that's measured from the model casting the power, similar to how a Nova power functions. Units within range are still being affected by a Blessing type power. The rules for Blessings quite clearly state that a single unit can never stack multiples of same Blessing.


Go re-read the rules for Blessings, namely the two points;
"Blessings target one or more friendly units and, unless otherwise stated, last until the start of the Psyker's next Psychic phase."

"The benefit of any one particular Blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different Blessings are cumulative."

Cursed Earth targets one or more units. However, as it's still a Blessing power, no unit can claim it's bonus more than once per turn.


Trying to word-ninja it to break the rules is the kind of crap that gives all DoC players the horrible image we've been trying to live down since that one summer in '08.

I know it can be hard to get but what the BRB says stricto sensu is that the blessing targets the psyker.

It then proceeds to explain what the blessing does, which is a sort of daemonic aura 12" around the psyker.

Until you can find words from the BRB that support your conclusion that the blessing itself targets more than the psyker, your theory does not stand.

Morgoth you're the one who made a baseless assumption.

"The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative"

Where does it say that this only applies to the "targetted unit"

Who the blessing targets is irrelevant. The BENEFIT can only be gained once. That benefit is +1 to your save.

So is it everyone's belief that a blessing can't stack from another blessing of the same name because of the main rule for blessings, even if a blessing power suggests otherwise?

Leatherjacket9 wrote:
So is it everyone's belief that a blessing can't stack from another blessing of the same name because of the main rule for blessings, even if a blessing power suggests otherwise?

A 'suggestion' isn't good enough. It has to come out and explicitly state that it overrides the rule that blessings can not stack.

The BRB says that blessings don't stack. So for Cursed Earth to stack with Cursed Earth, the specific rule needs to explicitly mention that it works a different way from the BRB.

You could argue that "other" can mean "additional", which would support stacking Cursed Earth.

The problem with that is that the connotation of "other" usually implies "different", which would not support (and would in fact explicitly disallow) stacking Cursed Earth.

So at best you have an ambiguity and at worst you have the rule confirming the BRB. That is the definition of "needs FAQ before anyone is going to believe you", and also why the majority of the community does not even believe that an FAQ is necessary. Don't get me wrong, it would be nice. But it's like the Necron overlord on a CCB of olde. Though RAW it seemed like he could join say, a unit of wraiths, very few people actually played it like that and eventually GW got around to writing some better rules that clarified it

Experiment 626, I don't think it's that cut and dry. You say the reason that it's mentioned that the power is cumulative with other modifiers that modifies an invulnerable save. But what about iron arm. It isn't mentioned for iron arm aren't there other things that can modify strength. But yet of all the blessings Cursed Earth is the only one worded differently in the way it is. The different wording doesn't guarantee something different but would definitely suggest to us that it may work differently than the way all other normal blessings work. We know a target can't receive iron arm to twice to stack cause that is mentioned in the rule obviously for blessings, but cursed earth is worded differently which may imply that it works differently than other blessings. "Any other modifiers"... may mean "any different modifiers" or it could in fact mean "any additional modifiers".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thank you luke1705. That's the logic I was looking for. Thank you for answering my question. :-)

Right and may is not explicit permission, as Ghaz has stated. Furthermore, Iron Arm would never need to have this issue because

A) it is a blessing and blessings don't stack

B) it is a buff that targets the pskyer only and a psyker can never cast the same power twice

For me I can see both sides of this argument. The BRB rule states:
"...The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per
turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative...."
Reading this with the phrase "any one particular blessing" meaning each psychic power with this name, then they can not stack with each other.
However if you read "any one particular blessing" to mean each individual casting of the blessing then it would stack.
The same would apply to the term different as well, as it could be referring to the name of the psychic powers or to each individual casting of the power.
Without GW stating exactly how they wanted this to work we can not be sure as to which way they intended it, but as it is written I can see that both sides can be correct. This is just poor word choice.

The wording is pretty clear. Its the interpretations that are off base. Twisting language to fit is usually doesnt work out.

"...The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per
turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative...."

This is something people don't seem to understand.

The benefit of any one particular blessing is what a target receives from a successfully cast blessing spell.

Here are a few clear examples:

Iron Arm is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker has +3 to his Strength and Toughness and he gains the Smash special rule.

Blessing: Iron Arm
Target: the Psyker
Benefit: +3 S,T and Smash

Warp Speed is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker has +3 to his Initiative and Attacks and he gains the Fleet special rule.

Blessing: Warp Speed
Target: the Psyker
Benefit: +3 I,A and Fleet

Endurance is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, all models in the target unit gain the Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain (4+) and Relentless special rules.

Blessing: Endurance
Target: a unit within 24"
Benefit: +3 EW, FnP 4+, Relentless

Cursed Earth is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, all models with the Daemon special rule (friend or foe) within 12" of the Psyker have a +1 bonus to their invulnerable save (normally increasing it to 4+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to a Daemon’s invulnerable save. In addition, whilst the power is in effect, friendly units with the Daemon special rule will not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve so long as the first model is placed within 12" of the Psyker.

Blessing: Cursed Earth
Target: the Psyker
Benefit: All units within 12" get +1 invul save for daemons, 12" no scatter Deep Strike


As for all other blessings, we have one target who gains the benefit of the Cursed Earth blessing, that target is the Psyker.


But let's consider for a second that I may be wrong and go back to the rule that you think prevents Cursed Earth aura from stacking.

"...The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per
turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative...."

If "the benefit" of "cursed earth" is that you get +1 to your invulnerable save, and that your unit starts within 12" of a herald who casted cursed earth, then turbo boosts to land within 12" of another herald who also casted cursed earth, then it would be refused "the benefit" on account of having gained that benefit already once that turn. If you turbo boost to catch up with the turbo boosting herald, you would also fail to get the benefit, since it's the second time already

If "the benefit" of "cursed earth" is that you get 12" deep strike no scatter (which in effect transforms the psyker into a ds beacon), would daemons landing within 12" be counted as "gaining the benefit of Cursed Earth" ?

Not just that, but every other blessing has an effect that lasts a whole turn, and in the case of Cursed Earth, that effect only applies to the Psyker, as if the psyker is removed or just moved far out of the way, nobody gets any benefit from the blessing.



I think the simple reality of cursed earth is that it's a blessing that targets the psyker, the benefit of which is an aura centered on the psyker that affects all daemon models within 12" (+1 invul) and also makes the psyker a 12" deep strike beacon for friendly daemons.



That, or Cursed Earth simply doesn't work if you move your models from one cursed earth to the same or another.


But this is not all...

"...The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per
turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative...."

Once per unit ? good. Because Cursed Earth does not affect units, it affects models. Models within 12" of the psyker who is actually the recipient of the benefit of the blessing.

Morgoth. Wow! I believe you are right sir. I was totally missing the wording on target and units. This would explain why Cursed Earth is worded differently. So in my mind I always assume that the psykers target is a daemon prince or herald but what if the psykers casting cursed earth is a unit with "brotherhood of psykers special rule. Is the entire unit the psykers because they have brotherhood of psykers, or is a model within the brotherhood of psykers unit randomly chosen as the target. For example... a unit of 10 pink horrors have the brother hood of psykers/sorcerers special rule. If the pink horrors manifest cursed earth, is the entire unit the target or a randomly selected model? This would matter because if you're right it would effect whether the models in the unit would be effected by additional over lapping cursed earth's effects.

Leatherjacket9 wrote:
Morgoth. Wow! I believe you are right sir. I was totally missing the wording on target and units. This would explain why Cursed Earth is worded differently. So in my mind I always assume that the psykers target is a daemon prince or herald but what if the psykers casting cursed earth is a unit with "brotherhood of psykers special rule. Is the entire unit the psykers because they have brotherhood of psykers, or is a model within the brotherhood of psykers unit randomly chosen as the target. For example... a unit of 10 pink horrors have the brother hood of psykers/sorcerers special rule. If the pink horrors manifest cursed earth, is the entire unit the target or a randomly selected model? This would matter because if you're right it would effect whether the models in the unit would be effected by additional over lapping cursed earth's effects.

The Psyker in this case refers to the Psyker Unit, which is the whole unit of pink horrors, making them an excellent candidate to cast Cursed Earth.

However, technically, "the Psyker" being the Psyker unit, being the horrors, only projects a single aura, within 12" of all models, that doesn't make it several auras though.

But it's still incredibly nice to increase the reach of your Cursed Earth, since 12" within any one of the 10 models spread over 30" means just about your whole army. Nice one

This thread has been done before.

See thread one

See thread two

Granted those threads weren't as heated as others on YMDC but regardless there were two separate stances.

Pro stacking stance is that it targets the Psyker and therefore only the Psyker is receiving the benefit.

Con stacking stance and the one I agree with/HIWPI is that the unit (let's say Unit A is within 12" of Psyker B that has succesfully manifested CE) has +1 to the invulnerable save and is therefore receiving the benefits of CE.

Added onto the fact the Psychic phase in general is a mess and you've got a rather tasty debate in your hands..

If a model gains a boost, there is no way you can say the unit hasn't gained a benefit. No way.

A member of the unit has gained a benefit. The unit has indeed benefitted.

 Frozocrone wrote:


Con stacking stance and the one I agree with/HIWPI is that the unit (let's say Unit A is within 12" of Psyker B that has succesfully manifested CE) has +1 to the invulnerable save and is therefore receiving the benefits of CE.

Added onto the fact the Psychic phase in general is a mess and you've got a rather tasty debate in your hands..

And your con stacking stance is based on twisting the words in the BRB instead of accepting them as they are.

You are talking about receiving the benefits of CE.

Not only does the unit never receive the +1 to the invulnerable save, because only models can, but the precise wording is "benefit". No s. No benefitting.

"...The benefit of any one particular blessing can only be gained once per unit per
turn, but benefits from different blessings are cumulative...."

This is there to tell you that you cannot stack Endurance or any other blessing targeting a unit.

Why is it necessary for units ?
Because blessings that target the Psyker do not require that limitation, because the Psyker can only cast each spell once.

The benefit of any one particular blessing is what a target unit receives from a successfully cast blessing spell.


There are no benefits (or friends with), there is no "benefitting", no concept of "who gets an advantage out of this", all there is is a simple sentence that tells us that you can cast the same blessing on a unit all you want, it will only get the effect (the benefit) once.

So are you saying the model's aren't part of a unit and therefore the unit doesn't receive the benefit?

Because according to 'Forming a unit' rules (BRB, pg9. Models and Units)

"The models that make up your Warhamer 40,000 army must be organised into units"

Your statement is incorrect.

Following on from that rule (and why I take con's side) as models must organised into units, once a model is receiving a +1 to it's invulnerable save, that particular unit (since a model from that unit is getting the +1 to save) is under the effect of CE (provided of course, they are in range of the Psyker that manifests it).

 Frozocrone wrote:
So are you saying the model's aren't part of a unit and therefore the unit doesn't receive the benefit?

Because according to 'Forming a unit' rules (BRB, pg9. Models and Units)

"The models that make up your Warhamer 40,000 army must be organised into units"

Your statement is incorrect.

Following on from that rule (and why I take con's side) as models must organised into units, once a model is receiving a +1 to it's invulnerable save, that particular unit (since a model from that unit is getting the +1 to save) is under the effect of CE (provided of course, they are in range of the Psyker that manifests it).

Say all a unit was in range of cursed earth, only the models in range would benefit from it, not the whole unit, therefore the unit does not benefit from it. And then say the other half of the unit are covered by a different cursed earth, those models would recieve the benefit of the second cursed earth

A unit never gains the benefit of CE until it is required to make an Invuln save. At which time, it can only gain +1, regardless of how many CE's could affect it.

 Frozocrone wrote:
So are you saying the model's aren't part of a unit and therefore the unit doesn't receive the benefit?

Because according to 'Forming a unit' rules (BRB, pg9. Models and Units)

"The models that make up your Warhamer 40,000 army must be organised into units"

Your statement is incorrect.

Following on from that rule (and why I take con's side) as models must organised into units, once a model is receiving a +1 to it's invulnerable save, that particular unit (since a model from that unit is getting the +1 to save) is under the effect of CE (provided of course, they are in range of the Psyker that manifests it).

If the models in the unit, and even all of the models in the unit were to receive the benefit (which they don't, because they're not the target), the unit would still not receive the benefit.

The rules are abundantly clear that you can't simply transform "all models in unit have X" to "unit has X".

It's a mistake that many rules readers make so there's nothing to feel bad about.


If you go back to the reason for that rule, which I outlined above, you'll come to the conclusion that indeed, receiving the "benefit" of a blessing is getting the effect of a successfully cast blessing targeting the unit.

The only reason for that rule is that units, unlike psykers, could receive the same blessing several times.

That's why that rule does not care about blessings that target "The Psyker", because those are already limited by the Psychic Phase Rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
A unit never gains the benefit of CE until it is required to make an Invuln save.

A unit never gains the benefit of CE.

A unit does not make an invuln save.

A unit never gains the benefit of CE.

A unit does not make an invuln save.

You're obviously trying to twist the rules to gain an unfair advantage but the rules are abundantly clear, the unit is not the target but gets the benefits, the benefits can only be had once per unit / model per turn. Thus no stacking, period..

Myliel wrote:

A unit never gains the benefit of CE.

A unit does not make an invuln save.

You're obviously trying to twist the rules to gain an unfair advantage but the rules are abundantly clear, the unit is not the target but gets the benefits, the benefits can only be had once per unit / model per turn. Thus no stacking, period..

They say "benefit". not benefits, not benefitting, not anything else. You are twisting the rules because you cannot accept that maybe Cursed Earth is meant to stack. Because you think it would be unfair.

I personally find that no overwatch for vehicles is unfair, do I argue that point ? No, because the rules say that vehicles get no overwatch.

I don't even play Chaos Daemons, I just read the manual and try to understand it, because knowledge wins wars.

Anyway, you still don't have a single argument supporting your theory, when I have the BRB, so good luck finding one. (note: twisting benefit to benefits or benefitting to make the BRB sentence less precise does not count as a valid argument).

In case you haven't noticed, receiving the benefit of a blessing is abundantly clear in English, whereas benefits or benefitting are wordings much less precise that simply betray the meaning of the original sentence by matching many more concepts.

In other words, what your camp has demonstrated so far is merely an inability to understand the finer nuances of the English language.