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Fulgrim. It took the smartest sword in galaxy to finally outwit him - a sword so smart it could talk. That's like really really smart for a sword.

I think Alpharius is greatly underestimated, I'd say Alpharius / Omegon, Guilliman, Magnus, in no particular order.

BrianDavion wrote:

epronovost wrote:
I would say Lorgar. He is the only one to have developped another intelectual sphere of interest beside war or weaponsmithing and produce ground braking work in those fields. He was the most politicaly minded of them all and had an actual project of society that would produce fonctional community for the worlds he conquered. He seemed also one of the most articulated. He is one of the few to have a hubris linked to higher knowledge. Lorgar wanted to find Truth.

except that's not true AT ALL. Lorgar was NOT the only Primarch who took an intreast in civil projects. he was not the only one intreasted in community building. everything positive you've just said about Lorgar can be said about Gulliman. except Gulliman didn't NEED religon.

Lorgar didn't need religion. You don't understand the story. He was groomed on Colchis by the Chaos Gods. He KNEW there was more than the emperor said They wanted him to know. He knew and he was right, and when he found out how right he was he hated the knowledge he acquired but also knew the truth is more important than the lies we wish were true.

Lorgar could have easily been the emperor's greatest ally. No other Primarch inspired the adulation he did. There is even a passage where Ultramarines(who hate word bearers) admit to his presence, and Kharn wishes his Primarch was more like that. As a public speak and someone who inspired populations he would have been a major asset in teaching the iterators. His talents were wasted.

jakejackjake wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

epronovost wrote:
I would say Lorgar. He is the only one to have developped another intelectual sphere of interest beside war or weaponsmithing and produce ground braking work in those fields. He was the most politicaly minded of them all and had an actual project of society that would produce fonctional community for the worlds he conquered. He seemed also one of the most articulated. He is one of the few to have a hubris linked to higher knowledge. Lorgar wanted to find Truth.

except that's not true AT ALL. Lorgar was NOT the only Primarch who took an intreast in civil projects. he was not the only one intreasted in community building. everything positive you've just said about Lorgar can be said about Gulliman. except Gulliman didn't NEED religon.

Lorgar didn't need religiong. You don't understand the story. He was groomed on Colchis by the Chaos Gods. He KNEW there was more than the emperor said. He knew and he was right, and when he found out how right he was he hated the knowledge he acquired but also knew the truth is more important than the lies we wish were true.

Lorgar definitely needed something, a direction for his faith. I'm pretty sure he basically says so ('humanity is nothing without faith' or something along those lines). I agree with everything else you said (although I don't know how groomed by Chaos he was, I know Kor and Erebus were but Lorgar worshipped the Emperor even on Colchis, and was really shocked when Kor and Erebus revealed they'd alwys worshipped the 'Old Faith').

I'd probably go with a tie between Perturabo and Magnus

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Fulgrim. It took the smartest sword in galaxy to finally outwit him - a sword so smart it could talk. That's like really really smart for a sword.

It puts him right up there with Fighter from 8-bit Theater...

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Great White wrote:
I'd sat perturbo. I mean just look at that iron cage

Not that I disagree, but Dorn is clearly one of the dumbest primarchs, if not the dumbest, both in terms of social intelligence and strategy.

Outsmarting Dorn is like winning a high school science fair.

\

Russ was no brain trust

Never got the feeling that Mortarion was the sharpest tool in the shed either.


Looks like a lot of competition for the smartest primarch, little less for the dumest. No real average intellect primarchs though.

 Exergy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Great White wrote:
I'd sat perturbo. I mean just look at that iron cage

Not that I disagree, but Dorn is clearly one of the dumbest primarchs, if not the dumbest, both in terms of social intelligence and strategy.

Outsmarting Dorn is like winning a high school science fair.

\

Russ was no brain trust

Never got the feeling that Mortarion was the sharpest tool in the shed either.


Looks like a lot of competition for the smartest primarch, little less for the dumest. No real average intellect primarchs though.

Average and primarch aren't words that mix well.

Though, there are lots in the middle of the Primarch pack.

Magnus and Pert are clearly near the the top.

Alpharius, and Corax are above the middle line.

Dorn, Angon, Mortarion, Ferrus, and Russ are at the bottom.

Who's left? The Lion, Khan, Fulgrim (maybe- he was outsmarted by a sword), Curze, Lorgar, Vulkan, Girlyman, and Horus.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Great White wrote:
I'd sat perturbo. I mean just look at that iron cage

Not that I disagree, but Dorn is clearly one of the dumbest primarchs, if not the dumbest, both in terms of social intelligence and strategy.

Outsmarting Dorn is like winning a high school science fair.

\

Russ was no brain trust

Never got the feeling that Mortarion was the sharpest tool in the shed either.


Looks like a lot of competition for the smartest primarch, little less for the dumest. No real average intellect primarchs though.

Average and primarch aren't words that mix well.

Though, there are lots in the middle of the Primarch pack.

Magnus and Pert are clearly near the the top.

Alpharius, and Corax are above the middle line.

Dorn, Angon, Mortarion, Ferrus, and Russ are at the bottom.

Who's left? The Lion, Khan, Fulgrim (maybe- he was outsmarted by a sword), Curze, Lorgar, Vulkan, Girlyman, and Horus.

You forgot Sanguinius... I know he gets a lot of love in pretty much every poll (Space Jesus has that effect) but I'd say he's on par with Alpharius and Corax... and I'd say Horus is probably up there too.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Alpharius turned his legion into the most effective force in the galaxy, so I'm voting for him.

Very very debatable.

...so is just about everything, everywhere, especially in 40K's background?

Anyway, yeah Alpharius was certainly up there, but in the end, I think he was a victim of the ol' "Too Clever By Half" curse too!

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Average and primarch aren't words that mix well.

Though, there are lots in the middle of the Primarch pack.

Magnus and Pert are clearly near the the top.

Alpharius, and Corax are above the middle line.

Dorn, Angon, Mortarion, Ferrus, and Russ are at the bottom.

Who's left? The Lion, Khan, Fulgrim (maybe- he was outsmarted by a sword), Curze, Lorgar, Vulkan, Girlyman, and Horus.

Angron was no moron. He saw problems with the Emperor's behavior that no one else saw till much later. He just didn't give a and was blinded by rage most of the time. Dude was emotionally broken from the get-go, what with having the Butcher's Nails in his brain.

In general, I think that maybe we're not giving the Primarch's homeworlds and how they grew up enough consideration. Primarchs that had a more well adjusted childhood and access to education are naturally going to come off as being smarter. I actually think Sanguinius should possibly be up there, since he had NO access to education and very rough homeworld, yet still comes across as one of the most level-headed and reasonable Primarchs.

I think the Lion would be somewhere in the top three, along with probably Magnus and Guilliman.

Scion of Sanguinius wrote:


You forgot Sanguinius... I know he gets a lot of love in pretty much every poll (Space Jesus has that effect) but I'd say he's on par with Alpharius and Corax... and I'd say Horus is probably up there too.

I didn't forget him so much as I hit the backspace and didn't notice I'd deleted his name.

I wouldn't put either alongside the insidious genius of Alpharius or the scientific genius of Corax. Sang and Horus were charismatic, but I don't think either are in the same rung as the top four.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think the Lion would be somewhere in the top three, along with probably Magnus and Guilliman.

Based on what?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fallinq wrote:


In general, I think that maybe we're not giving the Primarch's homeworlds and how they grew up enough consideration. Primarchs that had a more well adjusted childhood and access to education are naturally going to come off as being smarter. I actually think Sanguinius should possibly be up there, since he had NO access to education and very rough homeworld, yet still comes across as one of the most level-headed and reasonable Primarchs.

There's no way whatsoever to know what Angron or Curze would be like if they'd had the background any other primarch had.

They might deserve higher places, they might not... and there's no way to know for sure.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Scion of Sanguinius wrote:


You forgot Sanguinius... I know he gets a lot of love in pretty much every poll (Space Jesus has that effect) but I'd say he's on par with Alpharius and Corax... and I'd say Horus is probably up there too.

I didn't forget him so much as I hit the backspace and didn't notice I'd deleted his name.

I wouldn't put either alongside the insidious genius of Alpharius or the scientific genius of Corax. Sang and Horus were charismatic, but I don't think either are in the same rung as the top four.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think the Lion would be somewhere in the top three, along with probably Magnus and Guilliman.

Based on what?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fallinq wrote:


In general, I think that maybe we're not giving the Primarch's homeworlds and how they grew up enough consideration. Primarchs that had a more well adjusted childhood and access to education are naturally going to come off as being smarter. I actually think Sanguinius should possibly be up there, since he had NO access to education and very rough homeworld, yet still comes across as one of the most level-headed and reasonable Primarchs.

There's no way whatsoever to know what Angron or Curze would be like if they'd had the background any other primarch had.

They might deserve higher places, they might not... and there's no way to know for sure.

Perturabo and Magnus both regard the Lion's astonishing intellect in their respective works in the HH series. The Lion himself admits that he can perform complex warp trajectories in his head while most of his brothers hardly know of the discipline at all.

He's a sociopath, but a brilliant one.

 Shidank wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Scion of Sanguinius wrote:


You forgot Sanguinius... I know he gets a lot of love in pretty much every poll (Space Jesus has that effect) but I'd say he's on par with Alpharius and Corax... and I'd say Horus is probably up there too.

I didn't forget him so much as I hit the backspace and didn't notice I'd deleted his name.

I wouldn't put either alongside the insidious genius of Alpharius or the scientific genius of Corax. Sang and Horus were charismatic, but I don't think either are in the same rung as the top four.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think the Lion would be somewhere in the top three, along with probably Magnus and Guilliman.

Based on what?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fallinq wrote:


In general, I think that maybe we're not giving the Primarch's homeworlds and how they grew up enough consideration. Primarchs that had a more well adjusted childhood and access to education are naturally going to come off as being smarter. I actually think Sanguinius should possibly be up there, since he had NO access to education and very rough homeworld, yet still comes across as one of the most level-headed and reasonable Primarchs.

There's no way whatsoever to know what Angron or Curze would be like if they'd had the background any other primarch had.

They might deserve higher places, they might not... and there's no way to know for sure.

Perturabo and Magnus both regard the Lion's astonishing intellect in their respective works in the HH series. The Lion himself admits that he can perform complex warp trajectories in his head while most of his brothers hardly know of the discipline at all.

He's a sociopath, but a brilliant one.

He is also reported to be a brilliant tactician, a skill which no doubt requires intelligence.

 fallinq wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Average and primarch aren't words that mix well.

Though, there are lots in the middle of the Primarch pack.

Magnus and Pert are clearly near the the top.

Alpharius, and Corax are above the middle line.

Dorn, Angon, Mortarion, Ferrus, and Russ are at the bottom.

Who's left? The Lion, Khan, Fulgrim (maybe- he was outsmarted by a sword), Curze, Lorgar, Vulkan, Girlyman, and Horus.

Angron was no moron. He saw problems with the Emperor's behavior that no one else saw till much later. He just didn't give a and was blinded by rage most of the time. Dude was emotionally broken from the get-go, what with having the Butcher's Nails in his brain.

In general, I think that maybe we're not giving the Primarch's homeworlds and how they grew up enough consideration. Primarchs that had a more well adjusted childhood and access to education are naturally going to come off as being smarter. I actually think Sanguinius should possibly be up there, since he had NO access to education and very rough homeworld, yet still comes across as one of the most level-headed and reasonable Primarchs.

You can't take that into account though, because there's no way of knowing what they could've been. We can only go on what they actually were like.

There are only really 3/4 that could be considered well and above the others in intelligence.

Peturabo
lion el'johnson
magnus
and possibly guiliman.

Guilliman.
Magnus is seems knowledgeable, but he cannot seem to apply that knowledge very well and actually seems like a bit of an idiot.

 Formosa wrote:
There are only really 3/4 that could be considered well and above the others in intelligence.

Peturabo
lion el'johnson
magnus
and possibly guiliman.

Pert, Magnus, the Lion.

Easily the most intelligent.

You all know Perturabo's geneseed was stated to be the only one that increases intelligence right?

 Khonsu wrote:
You all know Perturabo's geneseed was stated to be the only one that increases intelligence right?

Really? That's a gem of interesting. Curious, but where could I find this? I enjoy me some Pert lore.

After Magnus Alpharius. (Sneaky little git)

Shidank wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
There are only really 3/4 that could be considered well and above the others in intelligence.

Peturabo
lion el'johnson
magnus
and possibly guiliman.

Pert, Magnus, the Lion.

Easily the most intelligent.

I agree. The Lion was the first (among Primarchs) to understand the need to use Librarians against daemons.

I'd say Guilliman is the smartest 'all-rounder' - he would be able to understand almost anything his brothers would share with him.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Shidank wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
There are only really 3/4 that could be considered well and above the others in intelligence.

Peturabo
lion el'johnson
magnus
and possibly guiliman.

Pert, Magnus, the Lion.

Easily the most intelligent.

I agree. The Lion was the first (among Primarchs) to understand the need to use Librarians against daemons.

I'd say Guilliman is the smartest 'all-rounder' - he would be able to understand almost anything his brothers would share with him.

None of them were slouches. Vulkan improved almost anything he got his hands on and made real a fancifully engineered toy warhound with a perpetual motion engine that Perturabo designed. While I don't know that Guilliman could have done this, I'm sure he could act on his own brilliance in ways Vulkan could not. They were all demigod geniuses, after all.

I'm going to say the awesomeness of one of the two lost primarchs!

Just because. ;P

 Shidank wrote:

 Khonsu wrote:
You all know Perturabo's geneseed was stated to be the only one that increases intelligence right?

Really? That's a gem of interesting. Curious, but where could I find this? I enjoy me some Pert lore.

There isn't that I'm aware of, and i've read it all, 2nd ed, index astartes and all the hh series to date, however gene seed alone does increase any intelligence already possessed, so a genius would become a super genius ala alexus polux

jakejackjake wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

epronovost wrote:
I would say Lorgar. He is the only one to have developped another intelectual sphere of interest beside war or weaponsmithing and produce ground braking work in those fields. He was the most politicaly minded of them all and had an actual project of society that would produce fonctional community for the worlds he conquered. He seemed also one of the most articulated. He is one of the few to have a hubris linked to higher knowledge. Lorgar wanted to find Truth.

except that's not true AT ALL. Lorgar was NOT the only Primarch who took an intreast in civil projects. he was not the only one intreasted in community building. everything positive you've just said about Lorgar can be said about Gulliman. except Gulliman didn't NEED religon.

Lorgar didn't need religion. You don't understand the story. He was groomed on Colchis by the Chaos Gods. He KNEW there was more than the emperor said They wanted him to know. He knew and he was right, and when he found out how right he was he hated the knowledge he acquired but also knew the truth is more important than the lies we wish were true.

Lorgar could have easily been the emperor's greatest ally. No other Primarch inspired the adulation he did. There is even a passage where Ultramarines(who hate word bearers) admit to his presence, and Kharn wishes his Primarch was more like that. As a public speak and someone who inspired populations he would have been a major asset in teaching the iterators. His talents were wasted.

I undersand the story perfectly well. the man needed something to belive in. he needed faith. his old faith was broken, so what does he do? immediatly sets across on a trip across the galaxy in search of another god. He needed a god. and yes he had a presence to him. that's the nature of a primarch (news flash BTW the Ultramarines didn't hate the word bearers. they detroyed the perfect city because they where ordered too. there was no malice in their actions. and even Lorgar clues in on that eventually) as for Kharn wishing his primarch was more like that well.. Kharn's primarch was Angron. whom was, let's be honest here, thanks to the nails, kind of a failure of a primarch.

BrianDavion wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

epronovost wrote:
I would say Lorgar. He is the only one to have developped another intelectual sphere of interest beside war or weaponsmithing and produce ground braking work in those fields. He was the most politicaly minded of them all and had an actual project of society that would produce fonctional community for the worlds he conquered. He seemed also one of the most articulated. He is one of the few to have a hubris linked to higher knowledge. Lorgar wanted to find Truth.

except that's not true AT ALL. Lorgar was NOT the only Primarch who took an intreast in civil projects. he was not the only one intreasted in community building. everything positive you've just said about Lorgar can be said about Gulliman. except Gulliman didn't NEED religon.

Lorgar didn't need religion. You don't understand the story. He was groomed on Colchis by the Chaos Gods. He KNEW there was more than the emperor said They wanted him to know. He knew and he was right, and when he found out how right he was he hated the knowledge he acquired but also knew the truth is more important than the lies we wish were true.

Lorgar could have easily been the emperor's greatest ally. No other Primarch inspired the adulation he did. There is even a passage where Ultramarines(who hate word bearers) admit to his presence, and Kharn wishes his Primarch was more like that. As a public speak and someone who inspired populations he would have been a major asset in teaching the iterators. His talents were wasted.

I undersand the story perfectly well. the man needed something to belive in. he needed faith. his old faith was broken, so what does he do? immediatly sets across on a trip across the galaxy in search of another god. He needed a god. and yes he had a presence to him. that's the nature of a primarch (news flash BTW the Ultramarines didn't hate the word bearers. they detroyed the perfect city because they where ordered too. there was no malice in their actions. and even Lorgar clues in on that eventually) as for Kharn wishing his primarch was more like that well.. Kharn's primarch was Angron. whom was, let's be honest here, thanks to the nails, kind of a failure of a primarch.

Angron is arguably the perfect primarch, a weapon to pointed at the enemy and set loose, blunt weapon but did exactly what you wanted... wiped out civilizations.

Lorgar did not want a GOD to believe in, he wanted something to believe in, something bigger than himself to follow, and ideal that he could get behind, so first he chose the emp, as he was the biggest thing to believe in, and by extension the imperial truth, thus when he was shunned he chose the next biggest thing to believe in, and it happened to be the chaos gods, just as planned.

Angron was the perfect Primarch for one situation which you didn't even want most of the time. He was pretty much a failure. Any of the Primarchs could wipe out civilisations if required, but they could also wage wars in hundreds of other ways.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Angron was the perfect Primarch for one situation which you didn't even want most of the time. He was pretty much a failure. Any of the Primarchs could wipe out civilisations if required, but they could also wage wars in hundreds of other ways.

True, but they had a hundred different things pulling at them too, when it got to the nitty gritty, angron and the world eaters would fight until they were dead or the enemy was, ammo, numbers, equipment would not matter, they would just go and ... die haha.

I admit bias of course

Also he wasn't a failure, that implies the poor sod had a chance to begin with, he never failed, he never got a chance to succeed, that isn't failure, that's slavery.