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I'm not sure if this has been touched upon, but not all CSM fight for the gods. Look at the Night Lords for example, they actively mock people who worship them. Maybe your CSM fight for fighting sake? I know that sounds kind of silly, but think about it you have been raised by the IoM to do nothing but fight, but youve been repressed your whole life, then suddenly you have the freedom to make your own choices... SM's are genetically engineered killing machines CSM's atleast have some personality. Sorry if that answer kind of sucks

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To be a CSM is to realize your entire service to the Corpse-Emperor has been a lie, a irrevocable sin against others in the name of ideology, no matter how pure- a realization you either cope with or one that drives you absolutely fething bonkers.

Remember that a loyalist Astartes knows no fear- but the CSM has discarded such childish coping mechanisms long ago.

Years of conditioning have been thrown aside, leaving bare the worst aspects of a child in a superhuman's body. And in many ways, the Warp offers ways to fall even further.

If you want to get to know chaos as a faction better then totally disregard every chaos codex since 3.5, chaos as a faction is a viable alternative to the imperium, it must have farms, schools etc just chaotic ones, it's not all eating babies that the terrible codex writers would have you believe, there is honour, good deeds (done for various reasons) and loyalty, it's just buried under the lack of knowledge the current designers have of the setting.

 Formosa wrote:
If you want to get to know chaos as a faction better then totally disregard every chaos codex since 3.5, chaos as a faction is a viable alternative to the imperium, it must have farms, schools etc just chaotic ones, it's not all eating babies that the terrible codex writers would have you believe, there is honour, good deeds (done for various reasons) and loyalty, it's just buried under the lack of knowledge the current designers have of the setting.

To be fair, I consider the Abyssal Crusade a pretty decent addition to the Chaos fluff. Other than that, I agree almost everything that came after the 3.5 codex is pretty forgettable, specially the treatment the traitor legions have received.

 Korinov wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
If you want to get to know chaos as a faction better then totally disregard every chaos codex since 3.5, chaos as a faction is a viable alternative to the imperium, it must have farms, schools etc just chaotic ones, it's not all eating babies that the terrible codex writers would have you believe, there is honour, good deeds (done for various reasons) and loyalty, it's just buried under the lack of knowledge the current designers have of the setting.

To be fair, I consider the Abyssal Crusade a pretty decent addition to the Chaos fluff. Other than that, I agree almost everything that came after the 3.5 codex is pretty forgettable, specially the treatment the traitor legions have received.

yeah, back when the night lords were just renegades and the word bearers worshipped chaos undivided as a whole things were a lot more clear.

There's so many different motives. So many different ways to fall. You just can't generalize it. Different legions, different war bands, different individual marines, they all have their own reasons for doing what they're doing. Some just want to watch the empire burn out of spite. Others have goals. Some genuinely think they are the good guys. Others are power hungry tyrants. Some sacrifice entire planets. Others fight to defend average joes, though sometimes only to their own ends. It's not black and white. Some are even so blinded by chaos that they don't even know that they're slaughtering innocents and their brethren. They think they're killing the bad guys. Others love hunting down loyalists and jamming their skulls on their trophy racks. The only thing for certain is that the EoM is not happy to see them, for one reason or another.

I have been n playing csm for many years.

I dont understand why they want Daemon hood for immorality of they are already born with immortality.

i don't understand the Dino bots. they leaped from rhino chassis to Defiler to fiend and heldrake. Why couldn't they jury rig existing obsolete vehicles like the orks?

If they are running out of technology and resources, I would have imagined them taking more daemon Stead over bikes, grow wings instead of jump packs. Carry tiny pink horrors and tzeench flamers as living weapon s to shoot. Borrowing blood letter swords for that awesome ap3 and i though i read in the fluff that those sword can shoot energy or lightning. Or grow claws for rending and have the Fos Ro Dah power shouts.

CSM's motivations vary from warband to warband or legion to legion. While some only have the goal of amassing more power or killing for the sake of killing, like people on this thread have said, others have more complex goals. Chaos is far more individualistic than most other evil factions, so you're going to get a variety of motivations.

The Black Legion is basically still fighting the Horus Heresy. Their goal is to take Cadia and then Terra, and wreck the rest of the IoM.

The "still fighting the Horus Heresy" thing also goes, to a lesser extent, for the Iron Warriors and Word Bearers. They both still want to wreck the IoM.

Also, the Word Bearers want a galaxy where EVERYONE worships Chaos. Either you convert or your sacrificed to the dark gods. As a result, they do a lot of corruption/missionary work. They don't just want to kill everything, they want converts. The Word Bearers genuinely believe that the universe will be better off if Chaos takes over everything, because Chaos is the true nature of sentient beings, and all other institutions are built on lies. In their view, they're supporting the natural order and the IoM, the Greater Good, and all the other man and xenos made philosophies, are the real unnatural abominations.

The Red Corsairs want to carve out their own little empire, like they had before they were brought down in the Badab War. They also want revenge against the IoM for thrashing them in said war (noticing a pattern?). Think of them as a dark mirror of the Ultramarines, wanting to a establish a twisted, bizarro version of Macragge. They've been reduced to piratical raiders to survive, and they hate it.

Ahriman's Thousand Sons want to raid the Black Library in hopes that they can learn the secret to ultimate power, become totally OP, and take over the galaxy. Ahriman even seems to believe that the universe will be better off with him running the show, and that he's a good person doing bad things for a good cause. Just look at his quotes.

The Purge want to extinguish all life everywhere, because they're a bunch of misanthropes who believe that life is evil and there can only be peace when the universe is cold and dead. It's 40k so heck, maybe they have a point. It's still possible that they could take recruits. More marines will help them exterminate faster. Maybe they're all just planning to take cyanide capsules together once they wipe everything else out.

Who knows what the Alpha Legion is up to, but they're definitely up to SOMETHING.

Those are the motivations that have been specified in the fluff. Everyone else fits into either the "amass power for its own sake" or"kill because they're driven to by insane urges" molds, or their motivations are mysterious. If you wanted to make your own warband, you really could give them whatever motivation you find compelling. With Chaos, there's no single set way. Everyone goes along his or her own path. It's a dark path, but at least it's their own.

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 Sillycybin wrote:

 fallinq wrote:


If you wanted to make your own warband, you really could give them whatever motivation you find compelling.

I really appreciate peoples perspectives on the Word bearers in this thread. It has made them a great deal more likably.

I do like Ahriman's motivations and fluff though I do believe he only makes use of rubic marines and sorcerers

As for what I have quoted, this is the problem. It is hard to see and justify a motivation strong enough to risk eternal damnation that still requires one to have a sizeable warband capable of laying waste to, or even fighting armies like the Tyranid swarm, the Orks, or Necrons.

It's not as hard as you think. You just have to come up with a goal that's important enough to risk everything for. Let me give you an example of a warband I made up awhile back. This would be a Tzeentch warband that isn't Tsons related and hence, doesn't use Rubric Marines.

The Attainers- The Attainers began life as the Hammer of Saints, a endlessly crusading space marine chapter. After many long, brutal campaigns and pyrrhic victories against Orks, Necrons, and Hive Fleet Leviathan, the Hammer of Saints marines slowly came to realize the true might of the Imperium's foes, that they couldn't possibly be defeated by conventional means, and that they were fighting a long, losing battle. Rather than give in to despair, the chapter master, Libertine, gathered together all the chapter's librarians and announced that they were abandoning their old crusade for a new one: to find a way to save the human race from its foes. During their search, they delved into many classified and forbidden Imperial archives, and violated the Emperor's law many times, but Libertine believed that these compromises were justified by the worthiness of their cause. Eventually, Libertine and the librarians came to a shocking conclusion. The human race had vast psychic potential, far beyond even the legendary witchcraft of the Eldar. But the Imperium captured and killed all humans born with this potential fully realized, due to how unstable and dangerous such powerful psykers were. The council of the chapter's leaders concluded that the ONLY salvation for mankind from its xenos foes was for humanity to reach its full potential and evolve into a race of powerful psykers as quickly as possible, without restraints or interference. Because the Imperium's policies were directly contrary to this goal, the chapter immediately went fully renegade. Now they call themselves The Attainers, and worship Tzeentch. They travel the galaxy in a constant quest to find Alpha and Alpha Plus level human psykers and protect those psykers from any forces that would harm them. Billions of humans may die at the hands of an infant psyker with out-of-control powers, holes in the fabric of reality may open and daemons may pour out, but to The Attainers, these are acceptable losses in their quest to save humanity. There are even rumors that The Attainers have a hidden planet where they take the more stable psykers they've "rescued" to breed their new super-psyker master race.

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As others have touched on, it might be best not to think about the Endgame for the whole faction; not only does this make your guys just part of the plan of greater beings (and you can run with this and some good plot, but it may be unsatisfying) but, unless you're playing a subset of one of the major players (Black Legion, Word Bearers, World Eaters, Red Corsairs) your army's part in any victory is going to have to be either minor, or played up a lot, which can easily lead to 'my army are the best CSM because they age' fluff if you're not careful.

Instead, consider the scale of the setting, and how much time/space there is to play with. Instead of having a universe-changing scheme, think about your own characters' motives.

Start with your army's leader, and ask yourself why he turned to Chaos. We know why his Legion/Chapter fell, but we also know that those that didn't seek something from Chaos did manage to resist. So what was it that pushed him over that edge? Loyalty to his Primarch? The quest for greater Knowledge/Power/Experience/Control? The urge to be a part of something greater? A genuine belief that he is doing the right thing? Or simply doing something for its own sake (which can be more interesting in a character than you might think; look at The Dark Knight's Joker or Sherlock's Moriarty)

Then, consider the world and characters around him. Why have they joined him in his crusade rather than any other Chaos Lord's? Do any of them have traits you might look for in good guys rather than bad guys, such as a loyalty or trust in their leader, or a desire to actually free, in their eyes, humanity from the tyranny of the IoM? What kind of influence do the Gods themselves have over the warband? Do they directly intervene, help or even hinder their actions?

As for the endgame, does there to be one? Ultimately, the simple and endless struggle to survive in a hostile galaxy can be as compelling a tale as a crusade to topple the Archenemy, whether you are a loyalist, a traitor, a xenos or a simple human. There is nothing wrong with just being in it for yourself in a setting of this scale; the galaxy may not remember you a millennia from now, but you will not go quietly into the night...

 Sillycybin wrote:
The Attainers have a great story fallinq. How do they rationalize those members of their forces who become demon princes / spawn/ mutated?

Since they abandoned the Imperium, they have no hang-ups about mutation or consorting with daemons. However, because they basically believe in a Chaos version of eugenics, they do judge such things based on how useful they are. Mutations that make one stronger are a badge of honor. Mutations that make one weaker are a mark of shame.

The Attainers aren't the most "pious" of Tzeentch worshipers. They basically use their faith as a means to accomplish their goals. Their sorcerers perform rituals to Tzeentch to grant them visions of Alpha level psykers so they know where in the universe they need to go next. They also perform rituals to travel smoothly and quickly through the Warp, and for protection when they're near a monstrously powerful psyker who's indiscriminately blasting everything in the area. That's about the extent of their faith, so few of them ascend to daemonhood. Since they still fit into his schemes, Tzeentch is perfectly happy with this arrangement. For the same reason, along with having a much stabler gene seed than the Tsons, they don't have an epidemic of spawndom plaguing their chapter. The spawn they do have, they use as cannon fodder.

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As I stand here clad in black as the right hand of the Warmaster I say my motivation has remained the same since setting out on this journey 10,000 years ago... Well... like 17 years but yeah. We just want to watch the Galaxy burn.

I really appreciate peoples perspectives on the Word bearers in this thread. It has made them a great deal more likably.

I do like Ahriman's motivations and fluff though I do believe he only makes use of rubic marines and sorcerers

As for what I have quoted, this is the problem. It is hard to see and justify a motivation strong enough to risk eternal damnation that still requires one to have a sizeable warband capable of laying waste to, or even fighting armies like the Tyranid swarm, the Orks, or Necrons.

That's kind of the point of them when you peel back the surface, and one thing I like about the Word Bearers novels is that it explores this side.

Marines fight to defend humanity from the Daemon, the Heretic and the Alien. In theory.

The Word Bearers will fight to defend humanity from Heretics and Aliens. It's just that their definition of 'heresy' is a wierd 180 degree shift from anything the Ecclesiarchy can understand. And Daemons are something to be welcomed in understood and controlled doses. They (and most chaos warlords) have no interest in seeing humanity obliterated and nothing but primordial chaos overrun the galaxy, but there are grades between "Imperator Fidelis" and "Blargle Fnungle Tentacles". As noted, thousands of worlds exist within the Eye of Terror. Yes, mutation is common but it's pretty common outside it, and worlds within the Eye of Terror, the Maelstrom and the Screaming Vortex still manage to have societies which don't break down for thousands of years.

Yes, they're cruel. Yes, the weaker of body and of mind can expect enslavement and/or insanity. But in all honesty, is that much different to a lot of parts of the Imperium?

I dont understand why they want Daemon hood for immorality of they are already born with immortality.

i don't understand the Dino bots. they leaped from rhino chassis to Defiler to fiend and heldrake. Why couldn't they jury rig existing obsolete vehicles like the orks?

If they are running out of technology and resources, I would have imagined them taking more daemon Stead over bikes, grow wings instead of jump packs. Carry tiny pink horrors and tzeench flamers as living weapon s to shoot. Borrowing blood letter swords for that awesome ap3 and i though i read in the fluff that those sword can shoot energy or lightning. Or grow claws for rending and have the Fos Ro Dah power shouts.

There's a BIG difference between Immorbidity (doesn't age) and Immortality (can never die or be killed). Especially for a warrior. The average lifespan of a marine seems to be a few centuries of percieved time.

As to jury rigging - marines are still marines. They're not going to accept rolling scrap piles. The Heldrake/Maulerfiend/Forge Fiend thing represents the development of the Dark Mechanicus' arts - initially you have possessed vehicles - a rhino, predator or whatever with a daemon sealed inside it. The defiler is 'stage II' - a purpose-built shell for a daemon. The Fiends are 'stage III' - much more organic and less clumsy, a structure far more suited to hosting a predatory daemon.

And daemon engines are a sensible piece of technology. It's something the Dark Mechanicus can produce in bulk, with more ease than they can recreate some older 'mundane' technology. But daemon engines work better than simple daemons as they have a mundane component. Daemons don't function well in reality without a host - summoned daemons don't last long and can't form the basis of a military force in the real world, and daemonic artefacts (like a bloodletter's hellblade) are the same. Bound daemons, either in humans (possessed) or vehicles (daemon engines) will remain effective as long as their shell survives, making them a much better asset.

 Sillycybin wrote:
You make a good point paradigm. I am mostly trying to wrap my head around any reason why my warband would fight a campaign against the tyranids.

I enjoy raiding the Imperium as much as the next warlord. But your going to fight tyranids on the table and I am always at a loss as for why. One could reason a fighting retreat. But if your going to play a campaign... well. I am not sure that the enjoyment of killing for those khorne and Slaanesh affiliated would be as satisfactory an answer as it would be for the Orks, who have the logistics of managing such a thing.

One need not retreat from the 'nids. Nids are a force of nature. They are coming in and they might be headed towards you. If so, put up a big enough fight, a tough enough campaign and they will go harvest biomass somewhere else. You could turn them away from Chaos followers or planets that lean towards heretic and towards planets that are more closely controlled by the IoM.

Sounds like an Alpha Legion plan
But consider it might be a World Bearer plan. To prove the power of chaos, to be used in prostelatising across the sector.

 Sillycybin wrote:
I have been working on the motivations behind the actions of my own chaos space marine warband and I have reached some conclusions that leave me feeling disenchanted.

At first one may think Slaanesh marines wage war simply for the pleasure of the act, but there are more activities then simply waging war that can bring joys to the senses.......

But they are also, VERY and I mean VERY angry at the Imperium so it brings them great joy to also just murder imperial citizens in new and gruesome ways.

A warband might not be part of some system spanning network. My ork warband is based on one world which they fight to control against my fellow Imperial and tau players. Your warband could have its base in the direct path of a splinter fleet, making it necessary for them to fight back.

I just began to build my Chaos army with the heavy theme of Slaanesh. My entire legion is one of pure self indulgence. Their entire motivation for doing anything is to make themselves happy, or aroused, depending on what they are doing. This, of course, pleases Slaanesh who in turn decides to reward them for their sins.

In time, my army will be running along side Daemons of Slaanesh, together bringing fear and death with a side of pillaging, all while reveling in their desires after the fact. Be it drugs, music, sex, proving they're the better fighter among their peers, etc. Whatever it is that unites them under their goal of basking in sheer indulgence. They don't care if they live or die in the end. If they live, they continue to do what they love. If they die...then they get to do what they love still.

Does their goal seem stupid or pointless? Yeah. But Chaos isn't supposed to make sense. The Gods only seek power. Chaos Marines grant them power by doing whatever it is that empowers those Gods. My warriors care not if you're Human, Ork, or Eldar. You're death means the same to them, and whatever you have that might further their means of self gratification is all that matters.

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I use to have a friend who played Space Marine White Scars. It was essentially the Mongols Biker gang.

so I wanted to do a Hell's Angels themed CSM army and have a biker gang war. I never got to as he moved to another state before I had the chance to buy a bike squad.

I think its weird that Biker gangs are organized by chapters like the wh40k marines.

With regards to fighting Nids, survival is the only motive you need: if you don't stop them, they will wipe out you, your bases, your allies. Basically, when the Nids arrive, everyone is on the defensive.

Look at the fluff examples of unexpected alliances, like Ultras and Tau or BA and Necrons; most of them only happen because Nids show up, and when Nids show up, you drop whatever you are doing, call a truce with whoever you were fighting and stop them. The Tyranids are pretty much the apocalypse incarnate.

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 Sillycybin wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
With regards to fighting Nids, survival is the only motive you need: if you don't stop them, they will wipe out you, your bases, your allies.

This isn't necessarily true for renegade space marines though, who are either fleet based or can simply bugger off to the eye of terror, or maelstrom.

Not all renegades or Chaos Space Marines (there is a difference between those two) are fleet based or are willing to flee into the Warp.

As to why Chaos Space Marines would fight the Tyranids, it could be because a world important to them is in the path of the Tyranids (like Forgefane: [url]http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Forgefane
[/url]) or because there is an important relic or some other thing a Chaos Lord desires on a Tyranid-infested world, or they could simply be attracted to the massive slaughter going on. Tzeentchian warlords could try to manipulate the Tyranids towards their own goals.

As for Warband backgrounds, this is one I really like:

Originally a Space Marine Chapter working for the Inquisition known as the Seekers of Truth, the Seekers and their Chapter Master, Gallus Herodicus, were being drained of their morale through excessive orders by the Inquisition to murder innocents. Herodicus would pray each night to gain the power to know when a man was lying so that he may only kill the guilty. However, Tzeentch was listening and granted his prayer. From that moment on, Herodicus and his men could hear every lie spoken by mankind. The Chapter went rogue within days from the insanity when they realized how many falsehoods existed in the Imperium they were serving.[2]

Since going rogue, the chapters battlecry has become "The lies, the lies, the lies..."[2]

When designing motivations for your warband, take in mind that Space Marines are genetically engineered killing machines. War and bloodshed is all they know. Motivations for Khornate marines are usually quite simple. They have devolved to raging berserkers who desire to spill blood for the blood god and just see the galaxy burn. Motivations for Slaaneshi Marines can are slightly more complicated, but they often share in common that making the 'perfect kill' or inventing new ways of killing is greatly stimulating to them. They too have somewhat of a 'let the galaxy burn' mentality and tend to fight just because they get a high out of it.
The followers of Nurgle and Tzeentch often tend to more complicated and less personal motivations. Especially Tzeentch can get downright complex. Marines often tend to fall to Nurgle if they are corrupted by one of his diseases and to Tzeentch when they dislike the way things are and desire change.
Undivided warbands tend to either be the result of an ambitious warlord bringing together followers of several different gods for his raids/campaigns, or religious-minded Marines that worship 'Chaos' as a concept and see the individual gods as aspects of this single, higher whole.

As to logistics, the need to gain new equipment and recruits is also a frequent motivation for Chaos raids. Chaos Space Marines get most of their reinforcements from slaves they capture on their raids or from defecting loyalist marines. Equipment and ammunition could also be captured on raids, and who knows what awesome tech you will find when raiding a Forgeworld?