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Excommunication is a daily event in the IoM! Alot less common are those turning from Chaos back to IoM, though it does very rarely happen.

 Rippy wrote:
Excommunication is a daily event in the IoM! Alot less common are those turning from Chaos back to IoM, though it does very rarely happen.

other then a few folks in inqusitor reteuines I can't think of any examples.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Excommunication is a daily event in the IoM! Alot less common are those turning from Chaos back to IoM, though it does very rarely happen.

other then a few folks in inqusitor reteuines I can't think of any examples.

It was in one of the older codices (either SM or CSM) that mentioned that it was a celebrated and rare affair.

I think it would also be important to distinguish between being excommunicated and being declared Excommunicate Traitoris.

Most Space Marine Chapters aren't adherents to the Imperial Cult. Some are, but most retain traditions that might have existed prior to the existence of the Imperial Cult. Thus, technically they could not be 'ex-communicated', because they weren't actually 'in communion' with the religious beliefs of the Imperial Cult in the first place. The Catholics didn't excommunicate Buddhists or Taoists. The Imperium doesn't excommunicate the populace of a planet which doesn't worship the Emperor at all. It might kill them, or indoctrinate them, but it can't really 'excommunicate' them. This is basically diplomatically glossed over in the Imperium, but I'm sure it comes up fairly often with the more strident and less politically (or tactically) astute religious leaders.

Being declared "Excommunicate Traitoris" (ET) goes way beyond that. It declares that the subjects are not only expelled from the Imperial church, but are also guilty of extreme acts of heresy against the Imperium, and are thus banished from the Imperium (or worse!). This is only really possible since the Imperium has both a official governing body AND an official religion which is a part of that governing body. So you aren't only excommunicated (thrown out of the religion) but also a traitor (an enemy of the society and government). You aren't just guilty of belief or behavior which excludes you from the church, but you are an active threat to the Imperium itself. I'm sure that the more strident members of the Imperial Cult view those as one and the same, but most people can, in practice, distinguish the menial adept who doesn't attend services from Erebus himself.

In practice, it might be possible for someone to be excommunicated, but to not be viewed as guilty of extreme acts of heresy. That is probably extremely boring (except to the victim), so we don't read about it in novels. However, if you had someone who steadfastly denied the divinity of the Emperor, but didn't attempt to promulgate that belief, or influence others to share it, or work against the Ecclesiarchy, he might be excommunicated (and probably lobotomized or killed), but not actually declared "ET". It seems to require an Inquisitor or a High Lord to declare someone official "E.T.", so it's probably much more common for a person or organization to be 'excommunicated' by local clergy. If the parish priest declares you to be excommunicated, your life is going to get unpleasant really fast (if it isn't already--mutant!), but the same priest frothing at the mouth and declaring the Space Wolves to be excommunicated is not going to be all that widely influential.

However, if you had someone who steadfastly denied the divinity of the Emperor, but didn't attempt to promulgate that belief, or influence others to share it, or work against the Ecclesiarchy, he might be excommunicated (and probably lobotomized or killed), but not actually declared "ET". It seems to require an Inquisitor or a High Lord to declare someone official "E.T.",

imperial cult is pretty extremist. If you are not with them you are a traitor (unless you happen to be space marines in which case exceptions will be made). But a citizen denying the divinity of the Emperor? Death warrant, if somebody informs authorities. Might as well be ET, dead is dead.

ET isn't just "you are beeing hunted". Its a "mark" that signifies everybody who may cooperate with the ET that they themself will become ET if somebody gets their hands on them. Others will deny help because of fear.

 Keep wrote:

However, if you had someone who steadfastly denied the divinity of the Emperor, but didn't attempt to promulgate that belief, or influence others to share it, or work against the Ecclesiarchy, he might be excommunicated (and probably lobotomized or killed), but not actually declared "ET". It seems to require an Inquisitor or a High Lord to declare someone official "E.T.",

imperial cult is pretty extremist. If you are not with them you are a traitor (unless you happen to be space marines in which case exceptions will be made). But a citizen denying the divinity of the Emperor? Death warrant, if somebody informs authorities. Might as well be ET, dead is dead.

ET isn't just "you are beeing hunted". Its a "mark" that signifies everybody who may cooperate with the ET that they themself will become ET if somebody gets their hands on them. Others will deny help because of fear.

Mostly true, although in one of the Last Chancers novels, there was a guy who was basically an agnostic, leaning towards atheist.. He was in the Penal Legion for this crime, but wasn't Excommunicate Traitoris. As you said, being declared ET means you're to be immediately executed and that anyone who associates with you can be declared ET too. That obviously wasn't the case with this guy. So it's illegal to abandon the Imperial Creed, but to get declared Excommunicate Traitoris, you have to really go the extra mile, like by taking arms against the Imperium or being tainted by Chaos/xenos.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Nah, its just the Space Wolves are special shiny snowflakes who ignore half the rest of the setting lore.

Not really. Crossing the Ecclessiarchy is something a Space Marine Chapter can do at will, since the Ecclessiarchy has zero authority over the Adeptes Astartes. Of course, the Inquisition is quite a powerful organisation, and getting on their bad side is something only powerful Chapters can afford, but the Space Wolves are defenitely in that category.

 Khonsu wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Nah, its just the Space Wolves are special shiny snowflakes who ignore half the rest of the setting lore.

TBH I think all first founding chapters are set somewhat above the rest of the Space Marines.

The Space Wolves are not Space Marines at all, Read them up and you'll understand.
They are literally a Chapter of beastility loving Primarch-Marines according to recent lore.

You must be reading the wrong books. Their codex does say they are the absolute best Space Marines ever, but that is no different from the Space Marines codex about the Ultramarines, or every other codex about its own faction. And there is barely any actual wolves or beasts, it is just in the names.

 fallinq wrote:

 Keep wrote:

However, if you had someone who steadfastly denied the divinity of the Emperor, but didn't attempt to promulgate that belief, or influence others to share it, or work against the Ecclesiarchy, he might be excommunicated (and probably lobotomized or killed), but not actually declared "ET". It seems to require an Inquisitor or a High Lord to declare someone official "E.T.",

imperial cult is pretty extremist. If you are not with them you are a traitor (unless you happen to be space marines in which case exceptions will be made). But a citizen denying the divinity of the Emperor? Death warrant, if somebody informs authorities. Might as well be ET, dead is dead.

ET isn't just "you are beeing hunted". Its a "mark" that signifies everybody who may cooperate with the ET that they themself will become ET if somebody gets their hands on them. Others will deny help because of fear.

Mostly true, although in one of the Last Chancers novels, there was a guy who was basically an agnostic, leaning towards atheist.. He was in the Penal Legion for this crime, but wasn't Excommunicate Traitoris. As you said, being declared ET means you're to be immediately executed and that anyone who associates with you can be declared ET too. That obviously wasn't the case with this guy. So it's illegal to abandon the Imperial Creed, but to get declared Excommunicate Traitoris, you have to really go the extra mile, like by taking arms against the Imperium or being tainted by Chaos/xenos.

It is pretty much in the name already: Excommunicate Traitoris. Just taking up arms against an Imperial organisation is not enough. You have to betray the Emperor himself by turning to Chaos or Xenos in order to recieve this stamp. It is the worst possible sanction in the Imperium and means you will get purged, all your friends will get purged and every single record of you will be purged too, making it like you never even existed. Aditionally, you will be cast out from the Light of the Emperor forever and shall never be able to obtain forgiveness or the Emperor's Mercy, even if you repent.

 fallinq wrote:
Mostly true, although in one of the Last Chancers novels, there was a guy who was basically an agnostic, leaning towards atheist.. He was in the Penal Legion for this crime, but wasn't Excommunicate Traitoris.

Being in the Peal Legion is basically being executed, so…

 Iron_Captain wrote:
And there is barely any actual wolves or beasts, it is just in the names.

Wolf packs, wolf cavalry, wolf sleighs and werewolves…

How do you guys think Excommuncation works in the example of the Doom Legion? I am a bit confused by it myself as I thought that the whole Chapter would have been marked. It must be easier for, the Administratum(?), to declare an entire Chapter renegade rather than individual Companies in cases where the majority of the Chapter goes traitor. In their case four out of 10 Companies remained loyal because they were to far away to participate in the Abyssal Crusade. They have a great big Pre Heresy Star Fortress, so could that be a reason?

 Pilau Rice wrote:
How do you guys think Excommuncation works in the example of the Doom Legion? I am a bit confused by it myself as I thought that the whole Chapter would have been marked. It must be easier for, the Administratum, to declare declare an entire Chapter renegade rather than individual Companies in cases where the majority of the Chapter goes traitor. In their case four out of 10 Companies remained loyal because they were to far away to participate in the Abyssal Crusade. They have a great big Pre Heresy Star Fortress, so could that be a reason?

where Heresy and the mark of Chaos is concerned the IoM has long held a (and given their experiances justly held) a policy of "better safe then sorry"

 Pilau Rice wrote:
How do you guys think Excommuncation works in the example of the Doom Legion? I am a bit confused by it myself as I thought that the whole Chapter would have been marked. It must be easier for, the Administratum, to declare declare an entire Chapter renegade rather than individual Companies in cases where the majority of the Chapter goes traitor. In their case four out of 10 Companies remained loyal because they were to far away to participate in the Abyssal Crusade. They have a great big Pre Heresy Star Fortress, so could that be a reason?

The C:SM's account of the Abyssal Crusade describes the some of the participating chapters volunteered the idea for a pertinence crusade (albeit under pressure and scrutiny), to which the Ecclesiarchy "Saint" agreed to. The Chapters involved suffered mutations in their geneseed coincided with a new Warp Storm, to regain honor the committee of Chapter Masters decided to adhere to the judgement of the Saint.

The Doom Legion's act of not committing the entire chapter into the pertinence crusade would have entirely been the then Chapter Master's decision, for whatever reason (as for why, I guess you'd better go read Judegment by Mark Latham). The Chapter would need only to prove the purity (not innocence) of those who remained to the ones who would care. Although it's not unreasonable to suggest that the garrison would be held at contempt for not joining the crusade.

Also I can't think of an explicit case where a Space Marine Chapter (or indeed any organization and/or individual) having been declared excommunicated traitors by the Administratum nor the High Lords. There might be fluff stating just that, and there are certainly reasons the believe it's the case. However, I recall only the Inquisition doing all the excommunicating.

 lcmiracle wrote:

The C:SM's account of the Abyssal Crusade describes the some of the participating chapters volunteered the idea for a pertinence crusade (albeit under pressure and scrutiny), to which the Ecclesiarchy "Saint" agreed to. The Chapters involved suffered mutations in their geneseed coincided with a new Warp Storm, to regain honor the committee of Chapter Masters decided to adhere to the judgement of the Saint.

The Doom Legion's act of not committing the entire chapter into the pertinence crusade would have entirely been the then Chapter Master's decision, for whatever reason (as for why, I guess you'd better go read Judegment by Mark Latham). The Chapter would need only to prove the purity (not innocence) of those who remained to the ones who would care. Although it's not unreasonable to suggest that the garrison would be held at contempt for not joining the crusade.

Also I can't think of an explicit case where a Space Marine Chapter (or indeed any organization and/or individual) having been declared excommunicated traitors by the Administratum nor the High Lords. There might be fluff stating just that, and there are certainly reasons the believe it's the case. However, I recall only the Inquisition doing all the excommunicating.

I've got Judgement which is where my question stems from. The only real reason seems to be that the Chapter was split in two. So how does a Chapter get decreed Traitoiris but not Traitoris. Surely it would be much easier to declared the whole Chapter renegade rather than leave what is left. I would assume that if you declare a Chapter Traitoris it impacts the entire Chapter.

The quote from the short says.

I see that there is no more discussion to be had, though. I will take my leave, but must tell you this - just as you wish to prove your honour and loyalty, so does the Adeptus Terra wish to clear the Doom Legion of any blemish on their record.

So I guess the Inquisition do the declaring and the Adeptus Terra do the book keeping. Sorry, there should have been a ? after the Administratum in my post as I was asking a question. I have added it.

BrianDavion wrote:

where Heresy and the mark of Chaos is concerned the IoM has long held a (and given their experiances justly held) a policy of "better safe then sorry"

Which is my point, surely the whole Chapter, especially if the vast majority of it went rogue, would be condemned to the same fate even if there were loyalist elements left. It's not so hard to let slip if its a few marines, but nearly a whole chapter would be concerning.

Which is my point, surely the whole Chapter, especially if the vast majority of it went rogue, would be condemned to the same fate even if there were loyalist elements left. It's not so hard to let slip if its a few marines, but nearly a whole chapter would be concerning.

Nah. If a big part of a Chapter "goes rogue" but some remain loyal, and turn to fight their traitorous brethren, then those loyalists are permitted to perform penance and regain their honor.

This is, after all, the current status of the Blood Ravens.

 Psienesis wrote:

Which is my point, surely the whole Chapter, especially if the vast majority of it went rogue, would be condemned to the same fate even if there were loyalist elements left. It's not so hard to let slip if its a few marines, but nearly a whole chapter would be concerning.

Nah. If a big part of a Chapter "goes rogue" but some remain loyal, and turn to fight their traitorous brethren, then those loyalists are permitted to perform penance and regain their honor.

This is, after all, the current status of the Blood Ravens.

Of course, it's also the Inquisitor or Inquisitors (does Excommunicate Traitoris require a council of Inquisitors? I feel like what I've read points towards that) jurisdiction. Some may decide to just purge everything, others may decide that part of the chapter has proved its loyalty, and is valuable enough to preserve. Clearly we're talking about the later situation in this case.

A lot of the info has been very useful! Thanks guys.

The main reason for this discussion is for me to continue development of
my own chapters back story. I had not hear of crusading for penance
so that is something that I will haft to look into.

 Psienesis wrote:

Which is my point, surely the whole Chapter, especially if the vast majority of it went rogue, would be condemned to the same fate even if there were loyalist elements left. It's not so hard to let slip if its a few marines, but nearly a whole chapter would be concerning.

Nah. If a big part of a Chapter "goes rogue" but some remain loyal, and turn to fight their traitorous brethren, then those loyalists are permitted to perform penance and regain their honor.

This is, after all, the current status of the Blood Ravens.

But does the Inquisition know of their current situation or is it kept under wraps by the Blood Ravens? That would be the difference between the Doom Legion and themselves, as far as I know the Inquisition aren't aware of their predicament and it's all kept in house, so the Ravens haven't been Excommunicated publicly.

 DarkElfZohan wrote:
A lot of the info has been very useful! Thanks guys.

The main reason for this discussion is for me to continue development of
my own chapters back story. I had not hear of crusading for penance
so that is something that I will haft to look into.

Really?
I'd love if you could post up your homebrew fluff when you have it finalised.
It could be inspirational!

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
It has happened many times, they are declared Excommunicate Traitoris.

There have also been Space Marine chapters that have been sent into the Warp to die by the Ecclesiarchy that have come back out and killed the head ecclesiarch.

very true