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2015/04/10 17:16:24
Subject: Re:Farsight Commander Bravestorm + Allied Tau Commander with Iridium Armor Legal?
Nilok wrote: RAI, yes you can take Farsight as allies. Just not in an Allied Detachment RAW, no you can't since the rule does nothing currently. As that permission is now already in the core rules, making the FE rule redundant. Much like how 4th Edition made target locks redundant as it removed target priority.
Until there is a new edition Farsight or FAQ, there is no need to discuss it with your opponent.
FTFY.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/10 17:29:46
Thylath wrote: I believe I did support my POV from the books, and don't believe they changed as much as you imply from 6th to 7th.
The main rules have, with the introduction of Factions which is what disallows you from using a Farsight Enclaves Allied Detachment with a Tau Empire Primary Detachment
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2015/04/10 17:50:21
Subject: Re:Farsight Commander Bravestorm + Allied Tau Commander with Iridium Armor Legal?
Thylath wrote: All they did was take the term codex and change the name from codex to faction, read the rules for faction.
Sorry, but that's not strictly true. Do we have a 'Codex Space Marines' faction? No. We have an 'Imperium of Man' faction instead which shows that they did not just change the name from 'codex' to 'faction'. So again, your argument has no merit. There is nothing that allows you to run both a Primary and Allied Detachment from the same Faction
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/10 19:01:53
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2015/04/10 18:59:31
Subject: Re:Farsight Commander Bravestorm + Allied Tau Commander with Iridium Armor Legal?
Thylath wrote: All they did was take the term codex and change the name from codex to faction, read the rules for faction.
No problem!
In the case of older publications, the Faction of all the units described in a codex is the same as the codex’s title. In the case of codex supplements, the Faction of all the units described in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of.
Is FE a Codex Supplement? Don't bother answering - the answer is yes.
So FE is Faction: Codex: Tau.
And what do we know about the allied detachment?
All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your Primary Detachment (or no Faction).
Is Faction: Codex: Tau different from Faction: Codex: Tau?
I don't believe it is...
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2015/04/10 23:04:16
Subject: Farsight Commander Bravestorm + Allied Tau Commander with Iridium Armor Legal?
Nilok wrote: RAI, yes you can take Farsight as allies. Just not in an Allied Detachment RAW, no you can't since the rule does nothing currently. As that permission is now already in the core rules, making the FE rule redundant. Much like how 4th Edition made target locks redundant as it removed target priority.
Until there is a new edition Farsight or FAQ, there is no need to discuss it with your opponent.
FTFY.
When a rule is completely broken by an edition change, sometimes it is best to use how it functioned previously to patch it, if it is not removed.
Previously the Farsight Enclaves used this specific rule which allowed them to be taken as allies. In 7e, a similar rule was added to the BRB as you know, but the Farsight version was left in even after an errata for 7e. This makes me believe that GW thinks it still does something.
I would be interested to hear your RAI on what the rule actually does.
2015/04/11 07:27:03
Subject: Farsight Commander Bravestorm + Allied Tau Commander with Iridium Armor Legal?
When a rule is completely broken by an edition change, sometimes it is best to use how it functioned previously to patch it, if it is not removed.
Previously the Farsight Enclaves used this specific rule which allowed them to be taken as allies. In 7e, a similar rule was added to the BRB as you know, but the Farsight version was left in even after an errata for 7e. This makes me believe that GW thinks it still does something.
I would be interested to hear your RAI on what the rule actually does.
Lack of an FAQ/Errata is evidence of nothing but GWs poor attitude to FAQs and Errata. The rule allowed you to ally in 6th. In 7th the core rulebook already gives you this permission. So the rule is now a redundant reminder that you can ally Farsight Enclaves to Tau Empire as Battle Brothers. This is clear, the Allied Detachment is an entirely new rule as the detachment system is entirely new, the FE rule makes no mention of this new rule so there is no evidence that you can break it's rules.
Taking 1 extra troop choice tax is hardly a huge deal. The intent of the rule is clear it is reminding you that FE and TE can ally with each other as Battle Brothers.
When a rule is completely broken by an edition change, sometimes it is best to use how it functioned previously to patch it, if it is not removed.
Previously the Farsight Enclaves used this specific rule which allowed them to be taken as allies. In 7e, a similar rule was added to the BRB as you know, but the Farsight version was left in even after an errata for 7e. This makes me believe that GW thinks it still does something.
I would be interested to hear your RAI on what the rule actually does.
Lack of an FAQ/Errata is evidence of nothing but GWs poor attitude to FAQs and Errata. The rule allowed you to ally in 6th. In 7th the core rulebook already gives you this permission. So the rule is now a redundant reminder that you can ally Farsight Enclaves to Tau Empire as Battle Brothers. This is clear, the Allied Detachment is an entirely new rule as the detachment system is entirely new, the FE rule makes no mention of this new rule so there is no evidence that you can break it's rules.
Taking 1 extra troop choice tax is hardly a huge deal. The intent of the rule is clear it is reminding you that FE and TE can ally with each other as Battle Brothers.
Saying Allied Detachment is entirely new is a half truth. While it is true the specifics are new with the detachment system, Allied Detachments were created in 6e and found under the "Force Organisation Chart" and was the only way to take allies at the time of the Farsight Enclaves Supplement release.
When the Farsight Enclaves rule refers to allowing them to be taken as allies, they are specifically referring to the Allied Detachment, which is almost identical to the 7e Allied Detachment except for changing 'codex' to 'faction', and was meant to reflect the fluff that the Tau Empire and Farsight Enclaves are not a cohesive army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/12 03:43:49
2015/04/12 08:17:30
Subject: Farsight Commander Bravestorm + Allied Tau Commander with Iridium Armor Legal?
Nilok wrote: Saying Allied Detachment is entirely new is a half truth. While it is true the specifics are new with the detachment system, Allied Detachments were created in 6e and found under the "Force Organisation Chart" and was the only way to take allies at the time of the Farsight Enclaves Supplement release.
When the Farsight Enclaves rule refers to allowing them to be taken as allies, they are specifically referring to the Allied Detachment, which is almost identical to the 7e Allied Detachment except for changing 'codex' to 'faction', and was meant to reflect the fluff that the Tau Empire and Farsight Enclaves are not a cohesive army.
Games Workshop decided to alter how the Allied Detachment functions, and introduce factions instead of codices, as well as changing how allies can be taken in general with other types of detachments. Who are you to say that in changing to 7th edition and not altering that line in the Farsight Enclaves rules they intended players to counter-intuitively decide they could ignore the clear restrictions on the Allied Detachment as per the 7th edition rules and just go with how it used to be in 6th edition?
When the Farsight Enclaves rule refers to allowing them to be taken as allies they are specifically referring to the allies rules, otherwise they would have amended it in the official update for 7th edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/12 08:18:00
2015/04/12 09:52:18
Subject: Farsight Commander Bravestorm + Allied Tau Commander with Iridium Armor Legal?
When the Farsight Enclaves rule refers to allowing them to be taken as allies, they are specifically referring to the Allied Detachment,
Nope if that's what they meant that is what they would have said. The rules on allies have changed. The Allied Detachment from the 7th Ed rulebook is an entirely new thing. There is no RaI support that the FE can use this type of detachment to ally with TE. This is just another case of poor naming on GWs part that is causing confusion with people that haven't read the full rules or are seeking some advantage. They should have called it the Auxiliary Detachment. The Allied Detachment is not inherently linked to allies any more than the CAD or FBSC.
When the Farsight Enclaves rule refers to allowing them to be taken as allies, they are specifically referring to the Allied Detachment,
Nope if that's what they meant that is what they would have said. The rules on allies have changed. The Allied Detachment from the 7th Ed rulebook is an entirely new thing. There is no RaI support that the FE can use this type of detachment to ally with TE. This is just another case of poor naming on GWs part that is causing confusion with people that haven't read the full rules or are seeking some advantage. They should have called it the Auxiliary Detachment. The Allied Detachment is not inherently linked to allies any more than the CAD or FBSC.
I apologize for not being clear enough, but I meant "they were specifically referring to the Allied Detachment in 6e". At the time, it was the only way you could take allies.
As I have said, the rule itself is broken and currently does nothing, but it is still there. So by using my best judgment on how it worked in the past, and how it was meant to represent the relationship they have with the Tau Empire and how their forces are deployed, I am saying that the rule as originally intended was to allow them to be taken in an allied detachment and suggesting a functional patch to the rule is to allow them to use the 7e Allied Detachment rule, which is the closest rule to the 6e version until Games Workshop finally does fix or remove the rule.
7e Allied Detachment isn't inherently linked to allies, but is functionally the closest rule to the 6e Allied Detachment which the Farsight Enclaves rule was referring to at the time of its publication.
If it is more clear, the RAI is that the rule was written specifically referring to the 6e Allied Detachment and my HYWPI is they can use the 7e Allied Detachment.
Games Workshop decided to alter how the Allied Detachment functions, and introduce factions instead of codices, as well as changing how allies can be taken in general with other types of detachments. Who are you to say that in changing to 7th edition and not altering that line in the Farsight Enclaves rules they intended players to counter-intuitively decide they could ignore the clear restrictions on the Allied Detachment as per the 7th edition rules and just go with how it used to be in 6th edition?
When the Farsight Enclaves rule refers to allowing them to be taken as allies they are specifically referring to the allies rules, otherwise they would have amended it in the official update for 7th edition.
It is my belief that if a rule is rendered nonfunctional by a rule change, but still remains in the game, a minimal patch should be applied to restore functionality of the rule. That job should done by Games Workshop, but they are woefully ineffective at it, which is why we have YMDC. The original functionality of the rule was to allow access to the 6e Allied Detachment, and the closest equivalent is the 7e Allied Detachment, which is why I suggested it.
When Games Workshop updated the 6e codices to 7e, it was to resolve the Psychic Phase with little checking elsewhere.
It does leave rules like this in a strange place, having a vestigial rule like this that was functional is not a sign of a well curated set of rules and can very well be argued both ways. As I said, I believe a rule is meant to do something, simply saying a rule rendered vestigial due to an edition change is just a reminder is, in my opinion, a lazy way to explain it away.
2015/04/12 14:54:45
Subject: Farsight Commander Bravestorm + Allied Tau Commander with Iridium Armor Legal?
The original functionality of the rule was to allow access to the 6e Allied Detachment, and the closest equivalent is the 7e Allied Detachment, which is why I suggested it.
This is what we fundamentally disagree on. I believe the rule originally allowed you to field Tau Empire alongside Farsight Enclaves in the same army as battle brother allies. The only way to do this in 6th was with the AD, this is no longer the case in 7th so I don't assume that this rule has anything to do with the new 7th Ed Allied Detachment.
When the Farsight Enclaves rule refers to allowing them to be taken as allies, they are specifically referring to the Allied Detachment,
Nope if that's what they meant that is what they would have said. The rules on allies have changed. The Allied Detachment from the 7th Ed rulebook is an entirely new thing. There is no RaI support that the FE can use this type of detachment to ally with TE. This is just another case of poor naming on GWs part that is causing confusion with people that haven't read the full rules or are seeking some advantage. They should have called it the Auxiliary Detachment. The Allied Detachment is not inherently linked to allies any more than the CAD or FBSC.
I apologize for not being clear enough, but I meant "they were specifically referring to the Allied Detachment in 6e". At the time, it was the only way you could take allies.
As I have said, the rule itself is broken and currently does nothing, but it is still there. So by using my best judgment on how it worked in the past, and how it was meant to represent the relationship they have with the Tau Empire and how their forces are deployed, I am saying that the rule as originally intended was to allow them to be taken in an allied detachment and suggesting a functional patch to the rule is to allow them to use the 7e Allied Detachment rule, which is the closest rule to the 6e version until Games Workshop finally does fix or remove the rule.
7e Allied Detachment isn't inherently linked to allies, but is functionally the closest rule to the 6e Allied Detachment which the Farsight Enclaves rule was referring to at the time of its publication.
If it is more clear, the RAI is that the rule was written specifically referring to the 6e Allied Detachment and my HYWPI is they can use the 7e Allied Detachment.
Games Workshop decided to alter how the Allied Detachment functions, and introduce factions instead of codices, as well as changing how allies can be taken in general with other types of detachments. Who are you to say that in changing to 7th edition and not altering that line in the Farsight Enclaves rules they intended players to counter-intuitively decide they could ignore the clear restrictions on the Allied Detachment as per the 7th edition rules and just go with how it used to be in 6th edition?
When the Farsight Enclaves rule refers to allowing them to be taken as allies they are specifically referring to the allies rules, otherwise they would have amended it in the official update for 7th edition.
It is my belief that if a rule is rendered nonfunctional by a rule change, but still remains in the game, a minimal patch should be applied to restore functionality of the rule. That job should done by Games Workshop, but they are woefully ineffective at it, which is why we have YMDC. The original functionality of the rule was to allow access to the 6e Allied Detachment, and the closest equivalent is the 7e Allied Detachment, which is why I suggested it.
When Games Workshop updated the 6e codices to 7e, it was to resolve the Psychic Phase with little checking elsewhere.
It does leave rules like this in a strange place, having a vestigial rule like this that was functional is not a sign of a well curated set of rules and can very well be argued both ways. As I said, I believe a rule is meant to do something, simply saying a rule rendered vestigial due to an edition change is just a reminder is, in my opinion, a lazy way to explain it away.
If you want to do this, then fine. But please understand that it's a house rule and runs counter to the current rule set. There are "vestigial" rules all throughout older publications. Seeing a rule made redundant or useless by a new edtion isn't a new phenomenon.
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pg 126 next to the allied matrix "In the case of older publications, the faction of all the units described in a codex is the same as the codex title. In the case of codex supplements, the Faction in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of."
pg 122 under allied detachment "All units must have a different faction to any of the units in your primary detachment (or no faction)"
the ability to ally at various levels (battle brothers, desparate, etc...) indicate how trusted your ally is.
the allied detachment is simply other units not contained in your faction's codex. In the case of TE and FE as much as I would love the fluff to matter it doesn't and there are no units at all in the FE. They are taken out of the parent TE therefore according to the detachment rules they would be the same faction as those taken from TE.
2015/04/12 17:40:11
Subject: Re:Farsight Commander Bravestorm + Allied Tau Commander with Iridium Armor Legal?
pg 126 next to the allied matrix "In the case of older publications, the faction of all the units described in a codex is the same as the codex title. In the case of codex supplements, the Faction in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of."
pg 122 under allied detachment "All units must have a different faction to any of the units in your primary detachment (or no faction)"
the ability to ally at various levels (battle brothers, desparate, etc...) indicate how trusted your ally is.
the allied detachment is simply other units not contained in your faction's codex. In the case of TE and FE as much as I would love the fluff to matter it doesn't and there are no units at all in the FE. They are taken out of the parent TE therefore according to the detachment rules they would be the same faction as those taken from TE.
Correct, which is why the special rule in the Farsight Enclave supplement about being able to ally with the Tau Empire in 6e, which used the Allied Detachment, have become vestigial and needs to either be removed or changed by Games Workshop.
2015/04/12 17:49:14
Subject: Re:Farsight Commander Bravestorm + Allied Tau Commander with Iridium Armor Legal?
pg 126 next to the allied matrix "In the case of older publications, the faction of all the units described in a codex is the same as the codex title. In the case of codex supplements, the Faction in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of."
pg 122 under allied detachment "All units must have a different faction to any of the units in your primary detachment (or no faction)"
the ability to ally at various levels (battle brothers, desparate, etc...) indicate how trusted your ally is.
the allied detachment is simply other units not contained in your faction's codex. In the case of TE and FE as much as I would love the fluff to matter it doesn't and there are no units at all in the FE. They are taken out of the parent TE therefore according to the detachment rules they would be the same faction as those taken from TE.
Correct, which is why the special rule in the Farsight Enclave supplement about being able to ally with the Tau Empire in 6e, which used the Allied Detachment, have become vestigial and needs to either be removed or changed by Games Workshop.
Yes, you're correct. In a best case scenario they would issue an Errata and change the text. In reality, there is no need. The Supplement says that FE and TE can ally. The 7th Edition rule book also says that FE and TE can ally. I can't imagine GW issuing an Errata to remove a couple of sentences that 100% agree with the core rule book.
Did the Supplement phrasing used to mean something different in 6th Edition? Sure. Back then you couldn't ally with yourself. Now, every Faction can ally with itself. Farsight Enclaves is no longer special in that regard.
You also need to really separate the concept of two Factions allying with each other using detachments and formations and the Allied Detachment. Both concepts use the word ally, which can be confusing, but mean different things. It would have been less confusing had GW simply called the Allied Detachment something like "Aux Detachment".
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It is worth noting also that the FAQ for Codex: Space Marines specifically allows for an Allied Detachment of Space Marines to be taken alongside a primary Space Marines detachment.
If they had intended the same for Tau Empire and Farsight Enclaves they would have written the same, given the existing wording in the original books is similar.
2015/04/13 14:32:02
Subject: Farsight Commander Bravestorm + Allied Tau Commander with Iridium Armor Legal?
Does it change anything that the last FAQ changed them to a separate faction? And the only thing we are going by is the blurb on the cover of the Codex/line in the intro paragraph? The only thing tempestus is lacking is those same two things.
It just sucks that gw had one line of thinking in 6th edition, and now for 7th everything is a separate entity and they won't fix a historical error.
foto69man wrote: Does it change anything that the last FAQ changed them to a separate faction? And the only thing we are going by is the blurb on the cover of the Codex/line in the intro paragraph? The only thing tempestus is lacking is those same two things.
It just sucks that gw had one line of thinking in 6th edition, and now for 7th everything is a separate entity and they won't fix a historical error.
Which FAQ and which historical error?
Farsight Enclaves and Tau Empire have always been the same Faction. "Factions" have only ever existed in 7th Edition. Militarum Tempestus has also always been its own Faction, despite numerous people online seeming to think it's an AM Supplement. Any "Codex: Something" is "Faction: Something".
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May 14..... Replace all instances of 'Farsight Enclave Army' with 'Farsight Enclave Detachment.' seems it is changing them to their own Detachment /faction.
And historical as in the few 6th edition mini-dexes got slapped with 'supplement' in their title, but all the 7th edition ones haven't. It's standard gw though...par for the course.
foto69man wrote: May 14..... Replace all instances of 'Farsight Enclave Army' with 'Farsight Enclave Detachment.' seems it is changing them to their own Detachment /faction.
That doesn't make them separate Factions.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2015/04/13 15:01:48
Subject: Farsight Commander Bravestorm + Allied Tau Commander with Iridium Armor Legal?
That does no such thing. It just makes the rule make sense in 7th Edition. Likewise no mini dexes existed in 6th as supplements for instance the Knight codex and right at the end MT. If it has unit entries it is a mini codex and is titled codex. If it uses unit entries from another codex it is a supplement and there have been plenty of those in 7th.
FlingitNow wrote: That does no such thing. It just makes the rule make sense in 7th Edition. Likewise no mini dexes existed in 6th as supplements for instance the Knight codex and right at the end MT. If it has unit entries it is a mini codex and is titled codex. If it uses unit entries from another codex it is a supplement and there have been plenty of those in 7th.
And then we also have the Campaign books. Shield of Baal: Extreminatus introduced "Mephrit Dynasty" Necrons, but it's not a Supplement.
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FlingitNow wrote: That does no such thing. It just makes the rule make sense in 7th Edition. Likewise no mini dexes existed in 6th as supplements for instance the Knight codex and right at the end MT. If it has unit entries it is a mini codex and is titled codex. If it uses unit entries from another codex it is a supplement and there have been plenty of those in 7th.
And then we also have the Campaign books. Shield of Baal: Extreminatus introduced "Mephrit Dynasty" Necrons, but it's not a Supplement.
No, but it is a Detachment which requires all models to have the Necron Faction.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2031/09/11 02:50:40
Subject: Re:Farsight Commander Bravestorm + Allied Tau Commander with Iridium Armor Legal?
Thylath wrote: Y'all are applying rules that didn't exist to a 6th edition codex, when Codex: Tau came out there was only primary detachment and an ally (not allied detachment) per primary detachment. The rule existed then as it does now that the allies must be from a different codex than the primary detachment. Your saying the rule in the FE applies to CADs, which could not be possible as CADs did not exist in 6th edition. The rule is very specific in what it meant then and it means the same now. As there was no other types of detachments than the primary, allies means allied detachment. Which means that since GW hates to errata stuff, RAW it can only mean one thing. There is no RAI in this, sometimes you have to go back to when a book was written to figure out what the rule really means.
Actually this whole argument is kind of a moot point with 7th Edition rules as they work now. In order to make things clear I'm going to take a couple of quick quotes from the 7th Ed book.
Factions pg 118(in my book): 2nd paragraph. --" In the case of older publications, the faction of all units described in a codex is the same as the codex's title. In the case of a codex's supplements, the faction is the name of the codex it is a supplement of."
Thus, yes, all FSE units are technically members of the Tau Empire faction.
Core Detachments pg 122: Both Combined Arms Detachment and Allied Detachment, Restrictions -- "All units chosen must have the same faction, or have no faction."
Core Detachments pg 122: Allied Detachment Restrictions -- "All units chosen must have a different faction to any of the units in your primary detachment, or no faction."
So no, you cannot take an allied detachment of Farsight Enclaves to your Tau Empire Combined Arms Detachment. Although, this doesn't mean that you need a whole new CAD to use them. Only the free slots in your Primary CAD. Thus, you can essentially mix and match your army however you want with the rules as they are written. Go ahead and bring your Crisis Suits as troops in your Tau Empire army and still run three riptides if you must. It'll still be battleforged.
Squirrels are Evil
2015/04/14 05:30:14
Subject: Farsight Commander Bravestorm + Allied Tau Commander with Iridium Armor Legal?
That doesn't make them separate Factions.
