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I find it odd nobody has considered forgeworld.
3 blood slaughterers are at minimum 12 S10 attacks on the charge, and with FA:13 thwy can shrug off any number of S6 attacks.
3 blight drones can throw down 3 S6 AP4 templates which have ignore cover (like all templates).

That has some merit. but Screamerstar can't do everything.

Tzeentch Daemonkin could help a lot here! haha.


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The hybrid, Blood slaughterer + screamerstar list is what I want to run.

The lack of control on the BS is the biggest gripe, eldar will just throw a sacrifice at it and make them dance in the wrong direction.

Also impaler no longer works on the WK :(

 The Internet is for Khorn wrote:
I find it odd nobody has considered forgeworld.
3 blood slaughterers are at minimum 12 S10 attacks on the charge, and with FA:13 thwy can shrug off any number of S6 attacks.
3 blight drones can throw down 3 S6 AP4 templates which have ignore cover (like all templates).

The Typhon and Chaos Rapiers are Forge World. Though, what's more depressing (and oddly hilarious at the same time) is how negative any thought of anything aside from 2++ rerollables and "free guarantees" this thread is devolving into.... What I mean by that, is it's literally looking like a power struggle, which it's not supposed to be. Sure there are strong units out there, some counter others, but unless you are literally list tailoring, you are supposed to struggle against opponents. So what if your opponent brings 3 Wraith Knights. Kill his troops and play the scenario. You win. So what if you're facing Knights. Play the objectives and Surround the Knights with Seekers or something. There are answers out there, you may not like, nor even agree with them, but plenty of people have said equally adequate measures in order to deal with certain army types, whether or not you choose to use them is up to you

I just got some Blight Drones, they should be pretty darn good at ruining an Eldar's day. Long range S8 AP3 blast on a Flyer is going to kill Bikes or at least make them jink, and can even threaten the Wraithknight, wounding on 4s ignoring Armor. And since they're in the air, they'll need a good amount of focus fire to drop.

 Orock wrote:
I love how every positive outlook in this thread is "as long as we get first turn every time, have twenty psychic dice, every power succeeds with the minimum dice to cast with no deny, and they fail every leadership test they have to take, we will be a.o.k."

That's some positive thinking right there.

Well we can be doom and gloom like most people are in the other threads... Never said Eldar will be easy to defeat with Daemons, and yes the new Eldar codex seems to be extremely broken (most people seem to agree) and can create many powerful tourney lists. It will be very unforgiving playing against strong tourney Eldar list.

My daemon list can generate 17 base WC, 20 if I run a DP, luck do play a big role in winning and strategically decide how much WC to burn and what powers to use first to goat the opponent to negate.

If scatbike spam lists does get ridiculous in the tournament scene, it might be good idea to sacrifice some points and take a imperial bastion with coms relay for 95 pts. If Eldar goes first, I'll reserve majority of my army except a few units and go from there. You can ask any top players, at least the jet bikes are ALOT easier to kill compared to the 6ed wave serpents...

But anyways thanks for your insightful, helpful and tactical comments.

So a guy with the eldar book put together this delightful 1850 single detachment battleforged list.

Wind rider host
Farseer on bike
Warlock on bike
Vyper
3 units of 3 jetbikes

That's 358pts.

Now add 5 wraithknights


So... There's no way I can fight that with daemons. Or anyone except gravstar. I think I'm going to have to push a single LOW limit.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So a guy with the eldar book put together this delightful 1850 single detachment battleforged list.

Wind rider host
Farseer on bike
Warlock on bike
Vyper
3 units of 3 jetbikes

That's 358pts.

Now add 5 wraithknights


So... There's no way I can fight that with daemons. Or anyone except gravstar. I think I'm going to have to push a single LOW limit.

At least be safe in the knowledge that pretty much no one but eldar themselves can fight that.

If I'm honest, that would probably frighten me a little less than a pair of Knights and numerous wraith guard. Or even CAD jetbikes. It's powerful sure, and nigh impossible to kill/stop but I don't think it's the optimal WAAC TFG list.

 Orock wrote:
I love how every positive outlook in this thread is "as long as we get first turn every time, have twenty psychic dice, every power succeeds with the minimum dice to cast with no deny, and they fail every leadership test they have to take, we will be a.o.k."

That's some positive thinking right there.

They are also failing to remember that Eldar can also get invisibility and psychic shriek and can troll us with a Culexus assassin for lols too.

Gauging by the power level of the daemonkin book and new Bloodthirsters (which cost around the same as a WK). We probably won't get a decent answer to Eldar in our new books either.....

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So a guy with the eldar book put together this delightful 1850 single detachment battleforged list.

Wind rider host
Farseer on bike
Warlock on bike
Vyper
3 units of 3 jetbikes

That's 358pts.

Now add 5 wraithknights


So... There's no way I can fight that with daemons. Or anyone except gravstar. I think I'm going to have to push a single LOW limit.

I thought the only way to bring a formation of only WK is that 12 WK formation for mainly apocalypse?? Most places limits LoW in general, so not really worry. If you want to play a friendly game at your LFGS against a list like that then go right ahead.


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 D6Damager wrote:

 Orock wrote:
I love how every positive outlook in this thread is "as long as we get first turn every time, have twenty psychic dice, every power succeeds with the minimum dice to cast with no deny, and they fail every leadership test they have to take, we will be a.o.k."

That's some positive thinking right there.

They are also failing to remember that Eldar can also get invisibility and psychic shriek and can troll us with a Culexus assassin for lols too.

Gauging by the power level of the daemonkin book and new Bloodthirsters (which cost around the same as a WK). We probably won't get a decent answer to Eldar in our new books either.....

I doubt any TAC Eldar list would bring a culexus to a tournament, waste of points, they can beat almost any army using solely their own codex. Eldar most likely will roll on divination anyways, and by any luck if the far seer do get invisibility and try to cast it on a unit WG I'll throw all my dice at it to negate it lol. Psychic shriek isn't that scary since Daemons at least get a invul save against it.

The biggest thing is not get alpha strikes by mass S6 shooting.

 The Internet is for Khorn wrote:
I find it odd nobody has considered forgeworld.
3 blood slaughterers are at minimum 12 S10 attacks on the charge, and with FA:13 thwy can shrug off any number of S6 attacks.
3 blight drones can throw down 3 S6 AP4 templates which have ignore cover (like all templates).

Currently I have 2 drones, and 2 blood slaughterers. Ive run double drones before, but havent run the slaughterers yet.

2 Drones is an OK sub for a decked out DP, as they cost the same. The difference is that the drone needs to survive without jinking. Luckily it has a baby skimmer base, so its easy to get ruins cover and whatnot. The downside is BS2 on the large blast, so you are pretty much hoping for the 1/3 direct hit. The flamer is really nice though.
If your opponent has any flyer, you can bet they will hit those drones with everything they have.

I've run some dice numbers, Slaughterers with impalers are about soul grinder cost, but a unit of 2, deep striking, can bring some serious hell to an enemies army. Better yet, unit of 3 dropping in and being hit with grimoire. The big buff they have over the SG is their initiative 4, so you don't worry about striking after marine walkers and whatnot. However you also lose the skyfire and torrent.
Plan on trying them out asap though.

I am mostly curious as to how well rounded eldar armies will be. The past book I felt like they had a +12" move or deep strike without scatter unit/model for every situation in every army. Got TDA? We got AP2 in your face, mech? melta in your face. You shoot? We shoot better!
I am really hoping that they have to start sacrificing something in each army.

Note that a WK is cheaper than both a DP and Be'Lakor. I'd not put my money on a dp as he's wounding on 6-s and still needs to get the powers and manifest them - won't be easy with all those warpcharges eldar get. However, Be'Lakor with flashbane has something going on for him if the enemy doesn't roll 6-s on stomps or on d-weapons. Remember, a 6 on D ignores everything. So, he basically has around 2-3 turns to roll at least on 6 on either stomp or d-hit to kill Bel/Prince in one go.

Thinking on tactix against eldar is like trying to penetrate a brick wall with your bare hands. Yep, it's probably possible but why bother?

Well for Eldar Jetbikes any unit that's AV13 is going to be beneficial but then they'll face the ST D so it's hard to figure out how to avoid ST D and still get out there with AV13.

I'd actually say the army that's going to probably be the best to deal with this is actually Khorne Daemonkin.

Why?

Their list get's a mix of Heldrakes and then you can take Bikers in the Gore Pack for T5 and get them FNP. That doesn't avoid the Wraith Knight who let's face it is going to be hard to kill.

Except, that you could go for Termicide to kill it. Possibly.

 koooaei wrote:
Note that a WK is cheaper than both a DP and Be'Lakor. I'd not put my money on a dp as he's wounding on 6-s and still needs to get the powers and manifest them - won't be easy with all those warpcharges eldar get. However, Be'Lakor with flashbane has something going on for him if the enemy doesn't roll 6-s on stomps or on d-weapons. Remember, a 6 on D ignores everything. So, he basically has around 2-3 turns to roll at least on 6 on either stomp or d-hit to kill Bel/Prince in one go.

Are you actually suggesting that Eldar can get nearly as many WC dice as a Daemon player who's actually working towards it? Sure, Warlocks bring a dice each and the Farseers have some tricks, but getting 12+ dice in a normal 1500 game without even bringing Pink Horrors is really normal, and then Summoning. If you really think an Eldar player can deny one of our Blessings without insane luck, you're tripping.

Thinking on tactix against eldar is like trying to penetrate a brick wall with your bare hands. Yep, it's probably possible but why bother?

Because that's what this thread is about?

Not that I like deathstars but...

Bloodcrushers + sorceror with hammerhand + belakor for invisibility = profit?
Get the charge, for a lot of A7 ap3 attacks.

Requizen wrote:

Are you actually suggesting that Eldar can get nearly as many WC dice as a Daemon player who's actually working towards it? Sure, Warlocks bring a dice each and the Farseers have some tricks, but getting 12+ dice in a normal 1500 game without even bringing Pink Horrors is really normal, and then Summoning. If you really think an Eldar player can deny one of our Blessings without insane luck, you're tripping.

How many dice would you risk rolling for that iron arm (which you have 50% to get in the first place)?

It's not about how much you have. It's about they having enough to deny something significant or force you invest many dice and peril on an important power and than deny something less significant.

 koooaei wrote:

Requizen wrote:

Are you actually suggesting that Eldar can get nearly as many WC dice as a Daemon player who's actually working towards it? Sure, Warlocks bring a dice each and the Farseers have some tricks, but getting 12+ dice in a normal 1500 game without even bringing Pink Horrors is really normal, and then Summoning. If you really think an Eldar player can deny one of our Blessings without insane luck, you're tripping.

How many dice would you risk rolling for that iron arm (which you have 50% to get in the first place)?

It's not about how much you have. It's about they having enough to deny something significant or force you invest many dice and peril on an important power and than deny something less significant.

Iron Arm is WC1, which means you should only be throwing 2 dice at it, 3-4 if you want it guaranteed. If it's on your lynchpin unit (as in, you need to have it on your Prince to kill that Wraithknight, right now), then save it for last. Either he's going to skip all the rest of your powers and try to deny a 4 Dice Iron Arm (statistically you get 2 and don't peril, he needs 12 dice to deny), or he denys other things and you get it off scott free. Learning to game people in the Psychic Phase is the single most important thing for Daemons, who live and die by their powers.

If you have a WC1 power that is the central portion of your plans and you can't get that single power off as Daemons, you probably misappropriated your dice, or luck seriously screwed you over. Daemons should have 0 problems out Psychic Phasing anyone except maybe Grey Knights.

 koooaei wrote:
Note that a WK is cheaper than both a DP and Be'Lakor. I'd not put my money on a dp as he's wounding on 6-s and still needs to get the powers and manifest them - won't be easy with all those warpcharges eldar get. However, Be'Lakor with flashbane has something going on for him if the enemy doesn't roll 6-s on stomps or on d-weapons. Remember, a 6 on D ignores everything. So, he basically has around 2-3 turns to roll at least on 6 on either stomp or d-hit to kill Bel/Prince in one go.

Thinking on tactix against eldar is like trying to penetrate a brick wall with your bare hands. Yep, it's probably possible but why bother?

Statistically WK will only have one turn to stomp Belakor out... Belakor has 6 attacks on the charge with all the bonuses including master crafted he should put out 3.5 wounds turn 1 on the WK(thats without Fateweaver casting prescience), turn 2 Belakor should be able to finish it off before WK get to even swing. Of course Belakor should probably psychic shriek the WK before assaulting it anyways hopefully taking a wound or 2. Not too bad for being only 55 pts more than the WK and can be total force multiplier for the rest of the army.

Also the 2nd part of your comment makes you sound ignorant and its unnecessary, if you got nothing constructive to offer you should maybe keep it to yourself.


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Before any more talks about the WK. Keep in mind it is a gargantuan LoW, it is banned in many tournament formats. ITC allows it but you get 1 maelstrom point for every 3 wounds you remove, so a dead WK is worth 2 points... kinda worth sending in maybe a summoned unit of daemonettes to help Belakor take it out or invest additional shooting spells at it.

Ok, i'll explain.

If you invest just 3-4 WC on an Iron arm, it's probably gona go off with 1-3 successes. An eldar player will than have >10 dice to roll a couple of sixes to deny this key power. Cause if you don't manage to cast it, a DP will be t5 without EW and thus even regular WK attacks will be real threat.

That's why you need to invest more WC to make it go off more reliably. It increases your chances to peril.

I'm not trying to make eldar look unbeatable or something. Just saying why DP won't work and why i think Be'Lakor is not likely to cut it too.

I think that big stuff is not worth it vs eldar on the whole. There's always a risk of getting one-shot with a D-cannon or D-scythes flying around.

Now a large unit of daemonnettes or seekers with invisibility or at least shrowded / grimoire could be more point effective. Smaller stuff tends to be more resilient to strong weapons than larger stuff point-to-point.

Well we can forget FMC dominance. All eldar missile launchers come with flakk missiles for free.

Like I said, if you invest 4 WC into Iron Arm, it goes off with 2, and they need 12 dice to stop, statistically. I know the sky is falling because Eldar, but that doesn't mean that we're always only going to get worst case scenario ever.

If they spend 12 WC to deny your one power, you likely have 12+ dice still around for other powers. If they spend everything on stopping that, they haven't stopped:
-Iron arm on another prince
-Warp Speed on any princes
-Invisibility
-Psychic Shriek
-Any Summonings
-Shrouding
-Any maledictions to make things easier to kill/weaker

So yeah. I'm not overly worried about getting out-Psychic'd as Chaos frickin Daemons. Besides, you only need 3 unsaved ID attacks to drop a WK (you can do it with 2, but 3 is statistical), so 2 Princes even without Iron Arm should be able to do it with fairly little problem, especially if they get Warp Speed or Fleshbane (or both!).

Yeah, it sucks that Daemon Princes cost (waaay) more, but they're a viable solution to the Wraithknight problem. Saying that they don't work at all because there's a chance that the Eldar can reliably deny one Psychic Power per turn doesn't make it any less true.

Though I agree. If you want a points-conservative way to drop WKs, Slaaneshi Daemons are the way to go. Multiple squads of Daemonettes are cheap, though I might go 50/50 with Pink Horrors to summon more of either. Seekers are amazing, as they're the highest points-to-damage output unit in the book by a huge margin - though as T3 single wounds, they're going to get evaporated quickly, so they'll need Grim/Invis protection and maybe even a Herald for Locus of Beguilement.

Be'lakor makes the cut even in this list because guaranteed Invisibility is worth the risk of getting D'd on a 6, at least imo.

Picking up my Eldar codex soon, but from what I've seen, Im not to terribly worried about my current daemon list. Of course the way I run them, the easiest target is often a flying, jinking Belakor

For Eldar to bring 10+ WC, they'll need like 2 far seers, spirit seer and bunch of warlocks or in any combinations and putting them on jet bikes. The more other stuff they have to bring means less scatbikes so I'm all good with that.

If Eldar wants to bring more vehicles for the missile launcher then I'm all for it... again means less scatbikes. But I doubt it, why would they want to tailor a list against anything, when mass scatbikes with some WG is pretty much the most powerful TAC.

Brass Scorpion under Cursed Earth isn't going to beat a sword Wraithknight in CC but it'll wreck most anything else, and it's got the speed to catch the Jetbikes.

Giving Chaos Bel'lakor is the best thing GW has done for chaos in awhile. The only reason Daemons are able to survive in the current meta.

Ever thought about getting the BT with the D axe and give him invisibility? If anything he would draw alot of fire in order for them to protect the WK.

If the last few codexes have been any indication of where the eventual 7th Edition Chaos Daemons codex will be, we'll have Gargantuan Daemons, Haywire, and D weapons of our own to squash the puny Eldar with. We'll probably be able to summon them as well.

 adamsouza wrote:
If the last few codexes have been any indication of where the eventual 7th Edition Chaos Daemons codex will be, we'll have Gargantuan Daemons, Haywire, and D weapons of our own to squash the puny Eldar with. We'll probably be able to summon them as well.

Yep, eldar could summon daemons. Now daemons can summon eldar.

 adamsouza wrote:
If the last few codexes have been any indication of where the eventual 7th Edition Chaos Daemons codex will be, we'll have Gargantuan Daemons, Haywire, and D weapons of our own to squash the puny Eldar with. We'll probably be able to summon them as well.

Would be nice if the next tzeentch daemon supplement include some S-D spells or weapon for LoC.


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Haha just bought 2 heldrakes...

Csm CAD
Belakor
2x10 cultists
2xheldrakes

Hopefully this will help my daemons deal with scatbikes and WG

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
If the last few codexes have been any indication of where the eventual 7th Edition Chaos Daemons codex will be, we'll have Gargantuan Daemons, Haywire, and D weapons of our own to squash the puny Eldar with. We'll probably be able to summon them as well.

Would be nice if the next tzeentch daemon supplement include some S-D spells or weapon for LoC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Haha just bought 2 heldrakes...

Csm CAD
Belakor
2x10 cultists
2xheldrakes

Hopefully this will help my daemons deal with scatbikes and WG

I thought heldrakes could be a good option for dealing with scatbike spam but then I re-read the rumours about the swooping hawks. It seems the new eldar codex will pretty much have an answer to everything.


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 koooaei wrote:
I think that big stuff is not worth it vs eldar on the whole. There's always a risk of getting one-shot with a D-cannon or D-scythes flying around.

Now a large unit of daemonnettes or seekers with invisibility or at least shrowded / grimoire could be more point effective. Smaller stuff tends to be more resilient to strong weapons than larger stuff point-to-point.

This. MSU, especially fast moving MSU like hounds, seekers, screamers etc. Is probably a good approach to dealing with new eldar lists.

The hawks move 18.. should be able to position the drakes so they can't get hit by the flyby attacks.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
If the last few codexes have been any indication of where the eventual 7th Edition Chaos Daemons codex will be, we'll have Gargantuan Daemons, Haywire, and D weapons of our own to squash the puny Eldar with. We'll probably be able to summon them as well.

Would be nice if the next tzeentch daemon supplement include some S-D spells or weapon for LoC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Haha just bought 2 heldrakes...

Csm CAD
Belakor
2x10 cultists
2xheldrakes

Hopefully this will help my daemons deal with scatbikes and WG

I thought heldrakes could be a good option for dealing with scatbike spam but then I re-read the rumours about the swooping hawks. It seems the new eldar codex will pretty much have an answer to everything.

People seem to forget, they're not going to have everything at once. They're not going to have 60 Scatter Bikes and Swooping Hawks and Wraithguard dropping from WWP from an Allied DE detachment and Wraithknights and Banshees and 10+ psychic dice. Don't bring something just because it might have a counter.