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Unless your meta is houseruling these units, they are poor in a universal sense. Whats more likely is that you can win with poor units in your meta. That fact does not make them good in general.

Martel732 wrote:
Unless your meta is houseruling these units, they are poor in a universal sense. Whats more likely is that you can win with poor units in your meta. That fact does not make them good in general.

Yes, but at least when replying I try to take the fact that other METAs are different than my own.
That is why why I don't even post when the words "Tournament" or "Competitive" show up in the tidal. Becouse my META does not fit that model any more.

When I give advice, it is also on a Positive or at least neutral note.

Hey, I play terminators all the time. I just think they look cool. And besides, I spent $70 and 100 hours painting my assault terminator squad

It doesn't really change that those are 225 points that could be better spent elsewhere. There are probably games that I lost where those 225 wasted points were probably the difference, but reall, I'm just happy if they ever get to something that they can smack. People laugh at my grousing about them all the time.

Now, what I want to know is, why can't they throw their thunderhammers like Thor does?! Space Wolves should have Mjolnir as a Relic.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Unless your meta is houseruling these units, they are poor in a universal sense. Whats more likely is that you can win with poor units in your meta. That fact does not make them good in general.

Yes, but at least when replying I try to take the fact that other METAs are different than my own.
That is why why I don't even post when the words "Tournament" or "Competitive" show up in the tidal. Becouse my META does not fit that model any more.

When I give advice, it is also on a Positive or at least neutral note.

The quality of these three units is, again, independent of meta. Now, there are units where meta is important, but these three are not that. All three provide too little offense for their points, and in the case of the SR, it can't even hold an objective!

For example, Land Raiders don't magically gain firepower because of the meta. However, I suspect that in your meta, there are fewer high-priority targets in the enemy list, so you don't need to max out your list's firepower in order to win.

Well in an attempt to go back to the original topic...

Land Raider [All Types]: With its High Armor it is a tough Vehicle to take out with some armies. However it is slow and the Crusader can hold more models that the Storm Raven.

Stormraven: Good Armor and good firepower. If you want to move models around the table quickly, this is your choice and if you want you can take a Dreadnaught with you.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Well in an attempt to go back to the original topic...

Land Raider [All Types]: With its High Armor it is a tough Vehicle to take out with some armies. However it is slow and the Crusader can hold more models that the Storm Raven.

Stormraven: Good Armor and good firepower. If you want to move models around the table quickly, this is your choice and if you want you can take a Dreadnaught with you.

Also -- Stormraven: Skyfire.

If your enemy (local meta, whatever) has a couple of Flyrants, and you play Blood Angels, you may want something that can shoot at them

 Anpu42 wrote:
Well in an attempt to go back to the original topic...

Land Raider [All Types]: With its High Armor it is a tough Vehicle to take out with some armies. However it is slow and the Crusader can hold more models that the Storm Raven.

Stormraven: Good Armor and good firepower. If you want to move models around the table quickly, this is your choice and if you want you can take a Dreadnaught with you.

Excuse me. I AM talking about the original topic. I'm saying neither, because they both have critical flaws making them not worth their points. The post topic is a false dilemma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Well in an attempt to go back to the original topic...

Land Raider [All Types]: With its High Armor it is a tough Vehicle to take out with some armies. However it is slow and the Crusader can hold more models that the Storm Raven.

Stormraven: Good Armor and good firepower. If you want to move models around the table quickly, this is your choice and if you want you can take a Dreadnaught with you.

Also -- Stormraven: Skyfire.

If your enemy (local meta, whatever) has a couple of Flyrants, and you play Blood Angels, you may want something that can shoot at them

Even those I think are better to just play around. You can't get enough skyfire to matter.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Well in an attempt to go back to the original topic...

Land Raider [All Types]: With its High Armor it is a tough Vehicle to take out with some armies. However it is slow and the Crusader can hold more models that the Storm Raven.

Stormraven: Good Armor and good firepower. If you want to move models around the table quickly, this is your choice and if you want you can take a Dreadnaught with you.

Excuse me. I AM talking about the original topic. I'm saying neither, because they both have critical flaws making them not worth their points. The post topic is a false dilemma.

The OP asked an opinion on them so I did. I tried to get away from our disagreements we have because we are on the Opposite sides of the fence when it come to how everything seems to work for the both of us. I also just stated the pros of what unit can do. I did not need to post the cons, you already did that and want the OP to make up his own mind rather than repeat ever other post on how bad they are.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Well in an attempt to go back to the original topic...

Land Raider [All Types]: With its High Armor it is a tough Vehicle to take out with some armies. However it is slow and the Crusader can hold more models that the Storm Raven.

Stormraven: Good Armor and good firepower. If you want to move models around the table quickly, this is your choice and if you want you can take a Dreadnaught with you.

Excuse me. I AM talking about the original topic. I'm saying neither, because they both have critical flaws making them not worth their points. The post topic is a false dilemma.

The OP asked an opinion on them so I did. I tried to get away from our disagreements we have because we are on the Opposite sides of the fence when it come to how everything seems to work for the both of us. I also just stated the pros of what unit can do. I did not need to post the cons, you already did that and want the OP to make up his own mind rather than repeat ever other post on how bad they are.

I really didn't cover the cons in depth, if the OP is interested.

Also, but saying "opposite sides of the fence" are you contending that these models are GOOD values for their point costs?

 Talys wrote:


Now, what I want to know is, why can't they throw their thunderhammers like Thor does?! Space Wolves should have Mjolnir as a Relic.

Power tomahawks one can either use as a power weapon or a One Use Only ranged weapon, perhaps?

 Talys wrote:
Now, what I want to know is, why can't they throw their thunderhammers like Thor does?! Space Wolves should have Mjolnir as a Relic.

Arjac Rockfist carries the Foehammer. "When Arjac hurls this weapon, its in-built teleporter ensures it swiftly returns to his outstretched gauntlet".

 Talys wrote:
Now, what I want to know is, why can't they throw their thunderhammers like Thor does?! Space Wolves should have Mjolnir as a Relic.

Arjac can, he is just awesome. Worth taking Space Wolf allies just for him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Now, what I want to know is, why can't they throw their thunderhammers like Thor does?! Space Wolves should have Mjolnir as a Relic.

Arjac Rockfist carries the Foehammer. "When Arjac hurls this weapon, its in-built teleporter ensures it swiftly returns to his outstretched gauntlet".

Beat me to it! :-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Two Stormravens flying around the table can be devastating and difficult to deal with.

If playing vanilla marines there is the escort craft rule that allows you to bring on 2 Storm talons from reserve at the same time your storm raven comes on with only 1 reserve roll needed. I've never used it but can imagine it working quite well.

Anyone had any experience in this?

In regards to the LR's, I would go for the Crusader in terms of usefulness. The standard LR cannot churn out enough shots and the Redeemer's range is a bit too short. LRC spits out bullets like there's no tomorrow, plus its transport capacity is impressive.

With the ammount of stuff that can one-shot a landraider as if it was a rhino, i'd stick to a stormraven transporting something relatively cheap.

Thanks for all the comments so far, it's good to hear all the pros and cons. As for the Termies, like Talys, I really like the look of the models. I know it might not be the most efficient unit, but they look great, and their deep striking ability must count for something when trying to score line breaker, or contest objectives right?

I hadn't honestly given the Storm talons any thought, I'm not entirely sold on the look of the model, and preferred the look of the DA Nephilim, but having read the codex section on them I am viewing them more akin to an Apache helicopter now than a fighter jet, so it's resolved the issues I had with the models aesthetics.

 General Kroll wrote:
Thanks for all the comments so far, it's good to hear all the pros and cons. As for the Termies, like Talys, I really like the look of the models. I know it might not be the most efficient unit, but they look great, and their deep striking ability must count for something when trying to score line breaker, or contest objectives right?

I hadn't honestly given the Storm talons any thought, I'm not entirely sold on the look of the model, and preferred the look of the DA Nephilim, but having read the codex section on them I am viewing them more akin to an Apache helicopter now than a fighter jet, so it's resolved the issues I had with the models aesthetics.

Yes I think several people refer to the Stormtalon as a flying potato. I always take my Stormraven whenever I field my Blood Angels and if I need extra air superiority I would take a small Space Marine allied detachment with a Stormtalon. Like you say the Stormtalon isn't much to look at (although I personally quite like the look of it), but its rules are pretty good like strafing run, escort craft etc. I run mine with the Skyhammer Missile launcher to blast light vehicles from distance and use the TL assault cannon on enemy infantry, plus the BS5 from it's strafing run rule is really handy. I really do rate the talon, it is well worth its relatively low points cost. I too see it more akin to an apache and have had great success using it to take out ground targets.

Terminators are really nice looking models and I am partial to them myself, I guess they can work in the right situation. If I field them, I would always go with Hammenators. Out of interest, what chapter are you playing as?

 Slaphead wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Thanks for all the comments so far, it's good to hear all the pros and cons. As for the Termies, like Talys, I really like the look of the models. I know it might not be the most efficient unit, but they look great, and their deep striking ability must count for something when trying to score line breaker, or contest objectives right?

I hadn't honestly given the Storm talons any thought, I'm not entirely sold on the look of the model, and preferred the look of the DA Nephilim, but having read the codex section on them I am viewing them more akin to an Apache helicopter now than a fighter jet, so it's resolved the issues I had with the models aesthetics.

Yes I think several people refer to the Stormtalon as a flying potato. I always take my Stormraven whenever I field my Blood Angels and if I need extra air superiority I would take a small Space Marine allied detachment with a Stormtalon. Like you say the Stormtalon isn't much to look at (although I personally quite like the look of it), but its rules are pretty good like strafing run, escort craft etc. I run mine with the Skyhammer Missile launcher to blast light vehicles from distance and use the TL assault cannon on enemy infantry, plus the BS5 from it's strafing run rule is really handy. I really do rate the talon, it is well worth its relatively low points cost. I too see it more akin to an apache and have had great success using it to take out ground targets.

Terminators are really nice looking models and I am partial to them myself, I guess they can work in the right situation. If I field them, I would always go with Hammenators. Out of interest, what chapter are you playing as?

Thanks for your input, I'm starting to wonder if I can somehow modify a Nephilim model to operate as a Stormtalon, I'm pretty certain it's beyond my skills but I might have a look at them in a little more detail. I can see why people call it a potato, but it's not that bad to look at, it's basically a chopper without the propeller. It seems like a pretty versatile unit so it's definitely something to consider.

As for the chapter, I've used my own colour scheme so I've been slowly writing some fluff to go with it for "The Sons of Kroll" Chapter. I'm still undecided about which chapter I will use as fore-bearers yet though with the models I already have I'm more than likely to keep them vanilla.

 General Kroll wrote:


Thanks for your input, I'm starting to wonder if I can somehow modify a Nephilim model to operate as a Stormtalon, I'm pretty certain it's beyond my skills but I might have a look at them in a little more detail. I can see why people call it a potato, but it's not that bad to look at, it's basically a chopper without the propeller. It seems like a pretty versatile unit so it's definitely something to consider.

As for the chapter, I've used my own colour scheme so I've been slowly writing some fluff to go with it for "The Sons of Kroll" Chapter. I'm still undecided about which chapter I will use as fore-bearers yet though with the models I already have I'm more than likely to keep them vanilla.

No worries. Best of luck punishing those heathen traitors and xenos scum with the might of the imperium

For the Emperor!