Powerfists at 5pts per model on Cypher's Chosen???

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**BetrayTheWorld**

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

As for not wanting to play against new eldar, especially if it's because of the D, you should really read about that here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/646186.page

FratHammer wrote:
Actually Betrayer, you brought up the D and I brought up the dex as a whole. So... No, he didn't. But he is right, this isn't useful to the OP.

Poly Ranger wrote:

I think you will find Betrayer, that this is a thread about powerfists on chosen, I have not gone out of my way to view any Eldar threads, quite the opposite. You have come to this thread to seek out those who disagree with your viewpoint to launch venom at them, much like an extreme evangelical going out of their way to hunt down atheist forums to abuse them for their views, then to get defensive when confronted about it. There was no need, FratHammer made a throwaway comment about the fact he/she would rather face pf chosen than the Eldar dex, which is anyones right. Until your response, FratHammer had not gone into details or specifics about his/her dislike of the new dex, it could have been for all we knew that he/she didn't like the look of Eldar models. You came on and derailed another thread with nonsence that many of us are completely bored with now and are trying to stay away from.

That being said, if I or anybody else ever expresses the opinion that we don't like the new Eldar dex (for whatever reason), I don't expect that we should be attacked for it and abused by yourself and other Eldar apologists. I'm frankly getting quite sick of the insults hurled at myself and others, and surprised that the mods were (/are - I don't know if they still are) letting it slide for so long. That is why I have stayed away from such threads. As I said before, there is no point in debating with those who hold extreme views that they refuse to change, it is a complete waste of time. And before you accuse me of such - check my thread history, you will find I was very open to debate when it came to a list I proposed with Jetbikes and IKs.

The only time I brought up the D weapon thing was to say that if that was what you had an issue with, you should discuss it in another thread that is more appropriate to said discussion, and I even provided a link to make it easy for you. It's you two that have taken this entire thing way off topic. Frathammer talking about the entire Eldar codex instead of the equivalent model that was given up as an example, and Poly Ranger going on a political crusade against the evildoers that are Eldar Apologists, as if Eldar are the Nazi's or something. Relax, bro. You should totally find out who manufactures chill pills, and negotiate yourself a lifetime supply.

**FratHammer**

So if we are comparing power fists, you should use an equivalent model as you say. A powerfist that goes at initiative is not the same as a power fist. Your my 1 model costs 57pts argument doesn't make sense. 1 model with a much better rule and will strike first is not better than your less expensive model that would die before swinging because my model costs more.

No. That isn't how you compare things and come to an understanding. Now your initiative power fist, on an upgrade character used to be something Orcs had. But they took it from us in 7th, because obviously eldar needed it. Luckily FW still has our back with Zadsnark, though he is an IC not an upgrade. He's named so we only get 1 and he costs 160pts. Now he's not a valid comparison because of the reasons I listed so I won't compare them them say you're is better because it's cheaper.

And no, again my problem is the codex as a whole, not any one part, though as I've said the problem isn't that the codex is op it is that everyone is not on the same level. Game balance isn't something gw understands. It's getting ridiculous having to repeat this though. And Nazi's never denied the holocaust. That came from people who deny it's existence. Much like your kind who deny you have an op codex. Gw making the op codex is the atrocity, you denying it happened is... Well just that.

**BetrayTheWorld**

FratHammer wrote:
So if we are comparing power fists, you should use an equivalent model as you say. A powerfist that goes at initiative is not the same as a power fist. Your my 1 model costs 57pts argument doesn't make sense. 1 model with a much better rule and will strike first is not better than your less expensive model that would die before swinging because my model costs more.

No. That isn't how you compare things and come to an understanding. Now your initiative power fist, on an upgrade character used to be something Orcs had. But they took it from us in 7th, because obviously eldar needed it. Luckily FW still has our back with Zadsnark, though he is an IC not an upgrade. He's named so we only get 1 and he costs 160pts. Now he's not a valid comparison because of the reasons I listed so I won't compare them them say you're is better because it's cheaper.

And no, again my problem is the codex as a whole, not any one part, though as I've said the problem isn't that the codex is op it is that everyone is not on the same level. Game balance isn't something gw understands. It's getting ridiculous having to repeat this though. And Nazi's never denied the holocaust. That came from people who deny it's existence. Much like your kind who deny you have an op codex. Gw making the op codex is the atrocity, you denying it happened is... Well just that.

It's a valid comparison because it's the only powerfist-like option the Eldar have. And it's not "much better" than on the chosen just because initiative, because the chosen can have 5 of them to the scorpions 1, and the chosen will instakill all races infantry while the scorpions will only ID T3. As for your feelings about orks and the rest of the codex, this isn't the thread for that discussion. You should post in one that is, like the one I linked you earlier.

**FratHammer**

So you're saying you would rather have 4 models with powerfists, at initiative 1 than 1 with initiative 5? I'd personally have the one that goes first and kills models before they strike in combat. If you're into low initiative armies in surprised you play eldar.

**Poly Ranger**

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
BetrayTheWorld wrote:

As for not wanting to play against new eldar, especially if it's because of the D, you should really read about that here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/646186.page

FratHammer wrote:
Actually Betrayer, you brought up the D and I brought up the dex as a whole. So... No, he didn't. But he is right, this isn't useful to the OP.

Poly Ranger wrote:

I think you will find Betrayer, that this is a thread about powerfists on chosen, I have not gone out of my way to view any Eldar threads, quite the opposite. You have come to this thread to seek out those who disagree with your viewpoint to launch venom at them, much like an extreme evangelical going out of their way to hunt down atheist forums to abuse them for their views, then to get defensive when confronted about it. There was no need, FratHammer made a throwaway comment about the fact he/she would rather face pf chosen than the Eldar dex, which is anyones right. Until your response, FratHammer had not gone into details or specifics about his/her dislike of the new dex, it could have been for all we knew that he/she didn't like the look of Eldar models. You came on and derailed another thread with nonsence that many of us are completely bored with now and are trying to stay away from.

That being said, if I or anybody else ever expresses the opinion that we don't like the new Eldar dex (for whatever reason), I don't expect that we should be attacked for it and abused by yourself and other Eldar apologists. I'm frankly getting quite sick of the insults hurled at myself and others, and surprised that the mods were (/are - I don't know if they still are) letting it slide for so long. That is why I have stayed away from such threads. As I said before, there is no point in debating with those who hold extreme views that they refuse to change, it is a complete waste of time. And before you accuse me of such - check my thread history, you will find I was very open to debate when it came to a list I proposed with Jetbikes and IKs.

The only time I brought up the D weapon thing was to say that if that was what you had an issue with, you should discuss it in another thread that is more appropriate to said discussion, and I even provided a link to make it easy for you. It's you two that have taken this entire thing way off topic. Frathammer talking about the entire Eldar codex instead of the equivalent model that was given up as an example, and Poly Ranger going on a political crusade against the evildoers that are Eldar Apologists, as if Eldar are the Nazi's or something. Relax, bro. You should totally find out who manufactures chill pills, and negotiate yourself a lifetime supply.

Thank you for proving my point so aptly.

**NightHowler**

Betray, I understand why you're so upset about all the hate thrown at something you love.

But you need to understand why people hate it.

Your dirt cheap basic troops choice is both fast attack and heavy weapons rolled into one with a 3+ save and jink. Your troops choice. Troops. Everybody is going to hate this.

You have D weapons all over your codex. D weapons that were the subject of so much hate for so long. D weapons that are so reviled that they are limited in most tournaments. And you have them all over your dex. They can ride in fast skimmer transports. They can deepstrike. They're literally where ever you want them. Everybody and their Grandma is going to hate this.

You have a formation that lets you take like 12 lords of war. Not my logan grimnar in his santa sleigh lords of war, but multiple D weapon gargantuan creature lords of war (that only cost like 20 points more than cute little logan mind you). Everybody, their Grandma, their next door neighbors, and their cousin's little dog is going to hate this.

If you don't like the fact that people don't appreciate the monkeys at GW vomiting out a codex with this little balance, then play a different codex, but don't expect them to "understand" how your codex is not OP. It is.

If you can understand and appreciate this instead of denying it, then maybe you can come to peace with the reality of it and just enjoy playing the game. Until then you're just going to be Don Quixote because nobody but other Eldar apologists are going to agree with you.

**FratHammer**

NightHowler, marry me.

Ps: In fluff NightHowler is a chick. And for the record, Soontir is a pimp!

**Redleg**

BetrayTheWorld wrote:
FratHammer wrote:
Oh betrayer I was referring to your codex as a whole buddy. Not one model. The whole thing.

Yeah, and I just used your specific reference point to debunk your whole argument, pal. The entire thing. If you say an entire codex is broken and OP, and I demonstrate to you that a section of it is not, specifically the section that you used as an example, that makes your entire argument worthless. You main point was fail, and the D-weapon crying is silly because of the link I provided. So your whole philosophy and argument was bandwagon hysterics.

EDIT: And it's Betray. The verb. Not betrayer, a noun.

My name is a Verb your argument is invalid

**Icculus**

Anyway, back to Cypher's chosen and the powerfist.

It is obviously a misprint for several reasons.
Throughout the optional upgrades the Chosen may take, they are all listed with the cheapest upgrade first, and then subsequent costlier upgrades each line after that. In the instance of the power fist, this 5 point upgrade is listed AFTER the 15 point upgrades.

Secondly the chosen champion has the same option to purchase a power fist, but for him its at 25 points.

That being said, I would still play it as a 5 point upgrade.

**Redleg**

To get back to the point here. It is clearly a typo. Unless a dataslate specifically explains how the units are different in some way, units should be treated as though they were standard codex units. In this case specifically, the unit is not allowed to take marks or transports. The unit information and points values are presented for ease of list building. In the case that you want to purchase units from the dataslate for use in a non- CSM dex.
1. If you brought this in a tournament, it might accomplish stressing out the TO. The TO wouldn't be able to let you have a 240pt handicap, and it just is in no way explainable. It would certainly alter the course of the tournament.
2. In friendly play, as stated before -clear douche move.

AWESOME SOLUTION: Paint up a squad of Death Wing Knights and give them to your opponent to use in the game. Probably would also stress out your TO, but serriously that guy is going to die of a heart attack before he turns 50 anyway.

**nosferatu1001**

Actually incorrect. The riles on those are self contained, there is no requirement to have a codex as well.