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 Mumblez wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Eldar isn't actually the first Codex to have Superheavy's in their codex as a LOW. Necrons have Obelisk/Tesserct Vault in their codex along with a (albiet a bit random) D-weapon on their C'Tans. My firend actually one shotted one of my wraithknights on his first turn before I even got to move them and netted him first blood.

Orks were the first 7th edition codex and the stompa is in the codex, so the 'trend' started with us. I just don't think anybody cared because we have no ranged S - D.

Necrons have S: D though. Its just random if they get it on any given turn.

 Xerics wrote:

 Mumblez wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Eldar isn't actually the first Codex to have Superheavy's in their codex as a LOW. Necrons have Obelisk/Tesserct Vault in their codex along with a (albiet a bit random) D-weapon on their C'Tans. My firend actually one shotted one of my wraithknights on his first turn before I even got to move them and netted him first blood.

Orks were the first 7th edition codex and the stompa is in the codex, so the 'trend' started with us. I just don't think anybody cared because we have no ranged S - D.

Necrons have S: D though. Its just random if they get it on any given turn.

Yeah, powers of the c'tan, right?

The only ranged S - D we have is the shokk attack gun if you roll box cars for its strength. It makes the attack Vortex, which uses the D table.

Other than that, we have the megachoppa on the stompa, but that's a melee weapon.

the argument would work, I'm sympathetic but they also introduced WG with D weapons which is where it all falls apart.

God I wish it was just LoW so I could agree I do.

The (il)logical progression towards points inflation and physical kit cost and size. Bigger, bulkier, less points, more money.

It's not a start, just a continuation. The same thing was said about monstrous creatures at the end of 5E into 6E. I'm sure the same thing was said as vehicles took dominance in 5E over previous editions.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
the argument would work, I'm sympathetic but they also introduced WG with D weapons which is where it all falls apart.

God I wish it was just LoW so I could agree I do.

+1, it's the WG w/ D, plus I actually considered a new LoW meta, what I'd take to counter many LoW is probably Swooping Hawks with their Haywire Grenades and now improved mobility.


Then, I was looking at the new Imperial Knight Titans. I WAS hoping they'd be in-line with the new Craftworld Eldar codex, for example. However, again it falls apart:


- none of the new Knight Titans have ranged D weapons, though I do like their new Hurling thing but only for lulz
- the Dakka Knight, the Crusader, is quite expensive, 400+ points, doesn't have the D, but lots of shots instead
- the cheapeast Knight is still in the 300+ range, but at least it can still throw other Vehicles, but not other LoWs


Still a gap between what the other armies got and what Eldar got, which says to me, maybe GW is trying to push LoWs, but if so, it's not doing a great job at it.


I'm still waiting for the rumoured soon-to-come Space Marine/Adeptus Astartes codex. Maybe they'll introduce their own D weapons or something similarly awesome to what Eldar got.

WK deserves to be somewhere around 600 points. If anything I hope this triggers a community switch at tourneys and in random games that you just don't play with super heavies and gargantuans outside of pre determined perimeters.

 Las wrote:
WK deserves to be somewhere around 600 points. If anything I hope this triggers a community switch at tourneys and in random games that you just don't play with super heavies and gargantuans outside of pre determined perimeters.

No, but it would have been appropriately costed at 395, and would have been more inline with the IKs. Still better, but filling a different role. 295 was just insulting.

 Zagman wrote:

 Las wrote:
WK deserves to be somewhere around 600 points. If anything I hope this triggers a community switch at tourneys and in random games that you just don't play with super heavies and gargantuans outside of pre determined perimeters.

No, but it would have been appropriately costed at 395, and would have been more inline with the IKs. Still better, but filling a different role. 295 was just insulting.

They are markedly better than IKs. They should be at least 150 pts more expensive. They don't need to be inline with them, they need to be ahead of them. For perspective, how much is a stompa?

 Zagman wrote:

 Las wrote:
WK deserves to be somewhere around 600 points. If anything I hope this triggers a community switch at tourneys and in random games that you just don't play with super heavies and gargantuans outside of pre determined perimeters.

No, but it would have been appropriately costed at 395, and would have been more inline with the IKs. Still better, but filling a different role. 295 was just insulting.

I think it should split the difference and be closer to the 495 range with the 2 wraithcannons and two shoulder mounted weapons. The melee WK should be in the 395 range (with the two shoulder weapons), as its faster and more durable than a IK with battlecannon or melta cannon but the firepower is less.

The WK's pricing is just so out of whack when compared to other super heavies/GMCs. Compare the WK to the Lord of Skulls, a super heavy that is largely considered overpriced, but did not have its points or capabilities adjusted in the Daemonkin codex. Stock, the WK has two ranged D attacks at 36" for 1/3 of the cost of a Lord of Skulls. In a duel, the WK murders the Lord of Skulls every time. However, in a standard 1850 game, the Lord of Skulls will cause far more damage against non-vehicle/MC units because of the huge template and blast ranged attacks it has available, while the WK will likely kill 1 vehicle or MC per round but will have less impact to non-vehicle/MC units. So in essence, their value is dependent on the army across the table, but what makes the WK superior is its ability to easily deal with any direct threat units (ie, other super heavies/GMC, regular battle tanks, MC), while the Lord of Skulls has a much harder time against those direct threats. With the push to bring in more super heavies, this distinction becomes even more important. From a durability standpoint, its almost a wash. The WK has 5+ FNP, 3+ (with a potential 5++) and T8/6W and is more durable against anti-tank weaponry such as lance and melta weapons but more vulnerable to anti-infantry such as plasma and the myriad of S6 multi shot weapons. The Lord of Skulls has a 5+ invulnerable, 13/13/12 AV, IWND, and 9 HPs, yet it is more vulnerable to anti-tank weaponry, but less vulnerable to anti-infantry weapons. In melee, the Lord of Skulls will outclass a ranged WK's cababilities, but will suffer greatly against a sword and board WK.

So ultimately, from a value perspective, the two models are rather close but do tend of focus on different roles, with the slight edge from an overall perspective going to the Lord of Skulls (its simply a bigger threat to the enemy's army as a whole). So how GW came up with 290 points as the starting cost for the WK, with knowledge of the existing 888 points for the Lord of Skulls (with extremely expensive upgrade costs), is absolutely baffling.