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This initially was a comment I made to a recent post about how to nerf the WK. But perhaps it deserves it's own topic. It was my suggestion there that perhaps the WraithKnight (WK) is in fact the first of a new wave of LOW designed to (perhaps) create a new meta

I believe that the old meta was

vehicles > infantry

However with the latest Eldar codex giving us a WK (buffed) this is what I think is going on, it is just a hunch but all the available evidence supports it GW are trying to create a rock paper scissors:

LOW > vehicles > infantry > LOW > vehicles > infantry (etc)

this assertion is in it's early days which leads to two questions: why would GW do this? why do I suspect it at all? how can I even make the statement infantry > LOW?

Well GW might well do something like this to change vehicles from being the OP meta in 40k at the moment, incidentally I also think this was what they did with fliers back when they came out.

why would GW do this? GW want to sell a new type of model to all their existing player base, their old "meta" they sold under for YEARS was make a new army, make a new army make better than the others (upon release) deda-deda-deda ... we know that game..., but that technique expired about 10-15 years ago because there were simply too many armies, the game was getting too dense. So fliers came out. a new model (or 3!) for everyone. But fliers haven't really altered the game balance the way they might have done.

why do I suspect it at all? I think that Eldar being immediately followed up within 14 days by Imperial Knights Codex is a huge hint. Everyone is screaming blue murder over the "OP WK" but they haven't screamed that the imps are getting a LOW codex of their own almost immediately. There is no doubt that cheap D toting LOW's are a OP meta at the moment, but it may be that very soon Imperial Knights literally out class the WK in every way except perhaps being an out-and-out LOW counter.

how can I even make the statement infantry > LOW? well this is easy, cheap infantry can tar pit a LOW. we are not doing it "now" but I suspect we might, we all take infantry with vehicles or we take infantry with big guns to sit at the back in a building. I am talking about cheap massed infantry (like storm guardians!) that can tar pit a LOW and don't even need a vehicle. They just need to get a charge in, so units like this can (perhaps) be used to deny whole areas of the table to a LOW. I suspect that vehicle -less foot based armies will actually do VERY well against a army that is 3 big models plus some change. Could this cheap mob on the table meta happen? Yes if the vehicle count was lower. And it would be lower because of the new LOW.

anyway this is why I think the WK is part of a new wave of changes, but the new Imperial Knight Codex will settle it, and the next codex after (I suspect it will be a LOW codex too, perhaps with imperial armour type various races in it)

any responses or comments are most welcome :-)

I think your "infantry > LOW because of tarpits" theory needs a bit of work. Good luck tarpitting a Baneblade or Thunderhawk.

ConanMan wrote:
This initially was a comment I made to a recent post about how to nerf the WK. But perhaps it deserves it's own topic. It was my suggestion there that perhaps the WraithKnight (WK) is in fact the first of a new wave of LOW designed to (perhaps) create a new meta

I believe that the old meta was

vehicles > infantry

However with the latest Eldar codex giving us a WK (buffed) this is what I think is going on, it is just a hunch but all the available evidence supports it GW are trying to create a rock paper scissors:

LOW > vehicles > infantry > LOW > vehicles > infantry (etc)

this assertion is in it's early days which leads to two questions: why would GW do this? why do I suspect it at all? how can I even make the statement infantry > LOW?

Well GW might well do something like this to change vehicles from being the OP meta in 40k at the moment, incidentally I also think this was what they did with fliers back when they came out.

why would GW do this? GW want to sell a new type of model to all their existing player base, their old "meta" they sold under for YEARS was make a new army, make a new army make better than the others (upon release) deda-deda-deda ... we know that game..., but that technique expired about 10-15 years ago because there were simply too many armies, the game was getting too dense. So fliers came out. a new model (or 3!) for everyone. But fliers haven't really altered the game balance the way they might have done.

why do I suspect it at all? I think that Eldar being immediately followed up within 14 days by Imperial Knights Codex is a huge hint. Everyone is screaming blue murder over the "OP WK" but they haven't screamed that the imps are getting a LOW codex of their own almost immediately. There is no doubt that cheap D toting LOW's are a OP meta at the moment, but it may be that very soon Imperial Knights literally out class the WK in every way except perhaps being an out-and-out LOW counter.

how can I even make the statement infantry > LOW? well this is easy, cheap infantry can tar pit a LOW. we are not doing it "now" but I suspect we might, we all take infantry with vehicles or we take infantry with big guns to sit at the back in a building. I am talking about cheap massed infantry (like storm guardians!) that can tar pit a LOW and don't even need a vehicle. They just need to get a charge in, so units like this can (perhaps) be used to deny whole areas of the table to a LOW. I suspect that vehicle -less foot based armies will actually do VERY well against a army that is 3 big models plus some change. Could this cheap mob on the table meta happen? Yes if the vehicle count was lower. And it would be lower because of the new LOW.

anyway this is why I think the WK is part of a new wave of changes, but the new Imperial Knight Codex will settle it, and the next codex after (I suspect it will be a LOW codex too, perhaps with imperial armour type various races in it)

any responses or comments are most welcome :-)

That post has SIGNIFICANTLY more thought put into it than GW have put into the 'meta' in the last 30 years. You give them too much credit. They make models then slap rules on them as they make their way out the door.

Can't the WK just stomp every infantry it comes across?

 RazgrizOne wrote:
Can the WK just stomp every infantry it comes across?

It can use stomp up to five times so trying to tarpit it with infantry is likely to result in a lot of hamburger to be rubbed off its boots.

ConanMan wrote:
why would GW do this?

GW has declaired numerous times that they are not writing rules for ballance or for 'meta' or whatever. They write rules so that you can put toys on the table and roll dice.

Some rulewriters take it more seriously, some less seriously. Some are like this:

 koooaei wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
why would GW do this?

GW has declaired numerous times that they are not writing rules for ballance or for 'meta' or whatever. They write rules so that you can put toys on the table and roll dice.

Some rulewriters take it more seriously, some less seriously. Some have no idea what they're doing.

Which is especially amusing since you don't need rules at all to do that, and the rules they do have are more restrictive than a true freeform set of rules (points values, for example) but not restrictive enough to prevent abuse.

Like others have already stated, GW doesn't care about the "meta."

They do care about sales and their margins. The new, bigger kits have higher margins and GW has been pushing the game towards allowing/encouraging more use of the bigger kits. It's been a slow-moving trend that started with Apocalypse in 2007. The second wave was all the skimmer kits released during 5th that they used as a wedge to get flyers in the game in 6th. Then came Escalation, the Imperial Knight codex, and 7th edition as a wedge to get super heavies into regular games of 40K. Now after two years of being a Monstrous Creature the WK is made into a Gargantuan as a wedge to get more Gargantuans into regular games. They don't care about if any of this makes for a better game. They just want to sell more big kits.

It can use stomp up to five times so trying to tarpit it with infantry is likely to result in a lot of hamburger to be rubbed off its boots.

This is exactly what I though. I'm fighting one tonight with my guard and I don't like that.

They do care about sales and their margins. The new, bigger kits have higher margins and GW has been pushing the game towards allowing/encouraging more use of the bigger kits. It's been a slow-moving trend that started with Apocalypse in 2007. The second wave was all the skimmer kits released during 5th that they used as a wedge to get flyers in the game in 6th. Then came Escalation, the Imperial Knight codex, and 7th edition as a wedge to get super heavies into regular games of 40K. Now after two years of being a Monstrous Creature the WK is made into a Gargantuan as a wedge to get more Gargantuans into regular games. They don't care about if any of this makes for a better game. They just want to sell more big kits.

Pretty much this.
Most LoW big kits cost circa €100-130 and have very impressive rules/stats. So I can as a player go out and buy 3 tac squads for about 100 quid and have some okish troops on the field or I can spend the same amountof money on a LoW/Super heavy and wreck face.
It all comes down to whether you want to build a fluffy/themed list or go large and stomp things flat.
GW dont care which option you choose as its still money in their coffers but a lot of players will be swayed by the rules for LoWs and invest there. Higher margines etc then.

Having said all that most of the Super Heavy kits are damned impressive imo. For e.g. the Stompa kit was a joy to assmble, paint and it does make a cracking centre piece. Its just that ingame many lists will struggle against it. Balance? hmmm.

I'm kind of agreeing with a lot being said, including those who were trying to disagree with me (for instance, LOW super heavy tanks it is different, but I was thinking imperial knights)

I do think GW build mechanics to sell models, kits and I do think this is a deliberate form of "power inflation" to cause sales but I do disagree that the "meta" is not important to their bottom line. i.e. if everyone was buying transports last 2 years they will push the meta to have everyone on foot (etc etc)

And, with the new WK rules being so new it may indeed prove that the new imperial knight codex means there opens up a way you can tarpit a LOW out of the game, (perhaps) or even (40 conscripts can be in a squad now, am I right?) Also LOW are also heavily vulnerable to power fists / claws.

But my main point is we will see what GW are doing with this new codex and we will get to know, and what if the WK is an eldar counter to these new LOW "meta" rather than an OP unit.

I think GW is far too incompetent to try and craft a meta or care about gameplay at all, and the Eldar codex release proves it.

ConanMan wrote:

And, with the new WK rules being so new it may indeed prove that the new imperial knight codex means there opens up a way you can tarpit a LOW out of the game, (perhaps) or even (40 conscripts can be in a squad now, am I right?) Also LOW are also heavily vulnerable to power fists / claws.

Unfortunately, Stomp hard-counters massed infantry because the small blast markers are placed after the little guys have consolidated into a tight blob. 40 conscripts/boyz/gants/whatever can die as quickly as within 2-3 Assault phases. Fists/claws hit the front armor, so they aren't that super-duper good.

But the biggest problem is not this, but the fact that super-heavies can easily outmaneuver infantry since they move twice as fast.

The only Infintry I can think of that would be able to take on a Knight titan are DE scourages or Eldar Swooping Hawks. Scourages have haywire guns while Swooping Hawks have 18" movement with haywire grenades. With the hawks you basically have to hope you hit enough grenades and get enough through to kill it before the stomps happen >.> a squad of 10 do cosst less than the knight titan though.

 Kain wrote:

 RazgrizOne wrote:
Can the WK just stomp every infantry it comes across?

It can use stomp up to five times so trying to tarpit it with infantry is likely to result in a lot of hamburger to be rubbed off its boots.

I think il take my chances getting shot twice per turn with the D.

I thought stomps were a D3. so at max you could have 3 stomps and even then its a 33% chance to get 1, 2 or 3 stomps

. i.e. if everyone was buying transports last 2 years they will push the meta to have everyone on foot (etc etc)

Have to disagree. I really doubt GW know what the current meta is much less care about trying to influence it.
I simply cannot believe they monitor tournament results, collate feedback from games held in their stores, read forums/blogs or do any real research.
It comes down to sales.
I'll bet cold hard cash 8th sees the return of hth in a big way. Anything assault based wont be buffed by individual codicies, they'll be buffed via the BRB ruleset. Hence a big sales push towards things like assault marines (last time you saw any?), nid units like warriors/stealers, viability of dedicated hth units (banshees etc).
Basically they will do a sales analysis since 7th dropped, ID what is not selling / what has reached saturation on a core rules basis and buff them.
5th was transports, 6th was flyers, 7th was psyker units and now superheavies (hooooo daemon/LoW sales), 8th will go back to hth imho.
They've been doing this for years and I forsee no change coming.

 Ratius wrote:

. i.e. if everyone was buying transports last 2 years they will push the meta to have everyone on foot (etc etc)

Have to disagree. I really doubt GW know what the current meta is much less care about trying to influence it.
I simply cannot believe they monitor tournament results, collate feedback from games held in their stores, read forums/blogs or do any real research.
It comes down to sales.
I'll bet cold hard cash 8th sees the return of hth in a big way. Anything assault based wont be buffed by individual codicies, they'll be buffed via the BRB ruleset. Hence a big sales push towards things like assault marines (last time you saw any?), nid units like warriors/stealers, viability of dedicated hth units (banshees etc).
Basically they will do a sales analysis since 7th dropped, ID what is not selling on a core basis and buff them.
5th was transports, 6th was flyers, 7th was psyker units (hooooo daemon sales), 8th will go back to hth imho.
They've been doing this for years and I forsee no change coming.

It's a good thing I have Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees already. Maybe I should max out the total to 30 each before that happens >.> only have 20 scorpions and 10 banshees.

Note the date of prediction down

 greyknight12 wrote:
I think GW is far too incompetent to try and craft a meta or care about gameplay at all, and the Eldar codex release proves it.

What made it even worse was reading the WD issue that had the WK fighting the various units mano y mano....a 340 point WK (with 2 starcannons) murdered two BT (at 250 and 275 respectively), destroyed a IK worth ~60-70 points more with ease, plastered two Tyrannid MCs (that were supposedly designed to kill MCs) without breaking a sweat, and required roughly twice as many points in DA terminators to bring it down. And the WD writers thought this was FANTASTIC!

Oddly enough, I think it will be the lowly D-Cannon artillery batteries that will end up being the real meta breaker. 150 points for three St D barrage small blasts with 24" range on a sturdy artillery platform. These seem to be getting overlooked, but the price and destructive output can't be beat.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Oddly enough, I think it will be the lowly D-Cannon artillery batteries that will end up being the real meta breaker. 150 points for three St D barrage small blasts with 24" range on a sturdy artillery platform. These seem to be getting overlooked, but the price and destructive output can't be beat.

That is why I have 9 of them being made now! The other hidden gem is 24 storm guardians with 6 free fusion guns, that run 6", have fearless near an avatar, 6 free power weapons for 216 pts (n/i avatar ofc and I know you need vypers and warwalkers etc etc but still) it was stuff like that where some of my initial thoughts re: tarpit come from. A massive blob of these plus some vauls lovin

 greyknight12 wrote:
I think GW is far too incompetent to try and craft a meta or care about gameplay at all, and the Eldar codex release proves it.

I think they do notice some gameplay-related trends and then try to adjust or fix them, but always in a ham-fisted manner with uneven results. In 3rd there was a thing called Rhino rush. In 4th this was corrected by the era of transport deathtraps. Which was then supplanted by much safer transports in 5th leading to razorback spam. In 6th hull points seemed designed to get razorback spam under control, but over-corrected and made things like Dreadnoughts useless.

ConanMan wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Oddly enough, I think it will be the lowly D-Cannon artillery batteries that will end up being the real meta breaker. 150 points for three St D barrage small blasts with 24" range on a sturdy artillery platform. These seem to be getting overlooked, but the price and destructive output can't be beat.

That is why I have 9 of them being made now! The other hidden gem is 24 storm guardians with 6 free fusion guns, that run 6", have fearless near an avatar, 6 free power weapons for 216 pts (n/i avatar ofc and I know you need vypers and warwalkers etc etc but still) it was stuff like that where some of my initial thoughts re: tarpit come from. A massive blob of these plus some vauls lovin

Its rather sad that a mere 150 point "throw-away" unit can potentially erase units 6 times its value in a single turn....I definately won't be bringing any super heavies out against Eldar.

Yeah the Wraithknight is totally broken and miscosted, but what really terrifies me is the thought of 9 Vaul's with either Scout or Infiltrate... If Eldar goes first you could take 9 Barrage D Blasts with absolutely no where on the table to hide.

What do you mean 'New'?

They've been pushing LOW stuff , and battles that are really too big for ages now.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
What do you mean 'New'?

They've been pushing LOW stuff , and battles that are really too big for ages now.

The post probably should have been titled "new Strength D 40K meta", as that's what it all boils down to.

While the WK is seriously underpriced, at least its the proper platform for St D. I'm more worried about the WG, Hemlock, and D-Cannons batteries, which is absolutely the wrong platform for firepower of that magnitude, especially with no draw-backs as these models remain at the same price and ability (see the St D bloodthirster for a more appropriate handling of putting the D on a non-superheavy platform)

all that other stuff is relatively low range though. I even consider the D-Cannons kinda low ranged at 24". That's too close to the enemy in my opinion.

Yup, this is a totally new and unprecedented thing. IK coming out a year ago and like 8 codexes since then including LOW were just flukes. This, now this is the start of a brand NEW trend.
/sarcasm


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yup, this is a totally new and unprecedented thing. IK coming out a year ago and like 8 codexes since then including LOW were just flukes. This, now this is the start of a brand NEW trend.
/sarcasm

Eldar isn't actually the first Codex to have Superheavy's in their codex as a LOW. Necrons have Obelisk/Tesserct Vault in their codex along with a (albiet a bit random) D-weapon on their C'Tans. My firend actually one shotted one of my wraithknights on his first turn before I even got to move them and netted him first blood.

 Xerics wrote:
Eldar isn't actually the first Codex to have Superheavy's in their codex as a LOW. Necrons have Obelisk/Tesserct Vault in their codex along with a (albiet a bit random) D-weapon on their C'Tans. My firend actually one shotted one of my wraithknights on his first turn before I even got to move them and netted him first blood.

Orks were the first 7th edition codex and the stompa is in the codex, so the 'trend' started with us. I just don't think anybody cared because we have no ranged S - D.