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I’ve not fielded my vanguards against an experience opponent yet. Did use them in a list against a newer player, and they did fine. I’m not taking that as a solid recommendation of the unit though.

They still die just like regular marines, even though they cost twice as much. Using them is going to be like assault marines. Keep them out of LOS, sneak up on things without taking too much fire, jump in and mug something. They are going to hit harder then the AMs, but cost more as well. Outmaneuvering eldar to get a good charge in is going to be rough. Speed is their game, and pinning them down is like nailing jelly to a board.

Now if you do manage to pin them down, there are going to be pointy eared gibs everywhere. So you can use the vets as a kind of dangerous terrain piece. If they get to close, you pop up and mug them. But considering the mobile firepower they can muster, I suspect you are going to be smoking boots before doing anything meaningful to them.

I’d not stick them in a raven. Not a huge fan of assault troops in reserve. They can’t impact the battle until late game.

My opponent is quite absent-minded and he got used to my IG army so he's not expecting aggressive CC units. Usually, I have a heavily mechanized IG company with some Inquisitor support and Space Marines but I'm always trying to pound him from afar.

I had the idea that 2 Vanguard squads with a spme melta bombs could reach his Fire Prism at the fond of the table and then use some Hellhound/Banewolves support to engage his infantry.

Basically, I want some CC units and SM Codex is my only possibility.

The downsides of assaulting his army are : WK, scatbikes Overwatch fire and S6 AP3 big plates. And Bladestorm. And DSing Warp Spiders...

Well I would give up hope on trying to find a unit that will reliably be able to assault his bikes. They are far too fast for that.

However, his tanks and wraithknight you may be able to charge. The problem with Vanguard Vets is two-fold.
1. The unit can cost the same, if not more than Terminators
2. They die much easier than terminators do.

It may seem like they are faster, but because they dont have that 4HP av14 shell around them, they will be so much more vulnerable pre-charge.

Also, consider the rules reading that a land raider that scouts may still allow its passengers to assault the first turn. Because it is the vehicle that makes the scout redeployment, not the unit. And there is a specifc Ork rule in their 5 battlewagon formation that says that units may not assault out of the battlewagons after they scout. which could be interpreted that normally, assaulting out of a scouted vehicle is permissible.

However, you can also take a look at honor guard. These 2+ armor close combat beasts are amazing in assault. they all have power weapons, they have 2 attacks profile, they have close combat weapons, they can take a banner for an extra +1 attack and oh hey, they also have bolters for that first round getting out of the drop pod.
So on the charge they would each have 5 attacks, and all with power weapons (your choice of power weapons by the way).

Always put them in a crusader or spartan, always give them TH/SS.

Doing anything else with them is a waste of points.

If you are facing Eldar the proper load-out I believe is going to be a LRR - 5 thunder-hammer storm sheilds and a chaplain barebones - Accept eldar challenges with you Termy sargent and if they fail to wound him smash the punny eldar with a str 8 hammer.

The redeemer is great vs eldar - AP3 str 6 flammers are real scary for just about ever unit in their army. unfortunately - they will kill the redeemer quickly because of this - so I would advise taking some suicide drop pods squads to distract them and possibly eliminate some anti tank.

You asked about vets - sterngard would be perfect for this suicide distraction roll. Vs a 10 man with 10 combi plasma. Also you could put your tacticals in pods to to try and get the heat off of your LR with terms.

If you take a regular raider and have 3 shields and 2 claws it can sit back and also counter charge when something nearby gets in trouble.

You essentially use it as an anchor or center defense unit.

It all depends on what else you bring to be honest, las press, heavy weapons teams, even whirlwinds would love to be near o e of those just because it will make getting close very difficult.

If you keep a librarian nearby you can try to go div and get the 4+ invuln which from my experience usually means people will ignore the raider if you manage to cast it on it.

Edit: as a chaos guy I use this tactic but with 3x combo melt as a flamer, and a mix of fists and claws. With the 4+ invuln and a bit of initial range punch it makes them very effective for counters.

Its a huge chunk of his army but Someone I play with regularly brings 10 TH/SS with CM with axe.
he either brings them in a Spartan or flies them onto the table with a legacy of glory Caestus assault ram and it doesn't scatter.

Its a pretty punishing unit.

Ordinarily I'd have recommended using a Spartan, but since D-Guard laugh at those with Ceramite I've been contemplating picking up a Ram. Not like it particularly has bad rules, but that's a potential T3 charge as opposed to the T2 charge.

Those WWP's are fething me over haha.

Problem with bringing a land raider is that IF the opponent manages to get into shooting range with WG there's a 9/10 chance that it will be destroyed. I wouldn't move any vehicles or monstrous creatures near WG.

Now if you're using LOS terrain and trying to rush towards a WK (assuming you can reach it) you've got a 50/50 chance that the LR can survive to unload the payload.

I actually ran that scenario out of 10 with each instance. The problem is when the opponent rolls a 6. If any 6s are hit (17%) then the LR is gone. So the only counter for WG is to shoot them with weight of fire before they get close OR hit them with high strength AP2 weapons.

The same can be said about the WK.

Assuming you get an assault in here are some numbers:
*Knight goes first due to high Initiative

Terminators w/ LC - NO!

Terminators w/TH
Example:
Charge 1: (Knight)3H/3W - 1 Dead Terminator - (Terminators) 4 Terminators - 3H/2W/0FNP - Knight HP: 4/6 - Stomp D3 - 3 stomps 9 hits from stomp table - 1 Terminator dies
Result: 2 Dead Terminators for 2 wounds off WK
Charge 2: (Knight) 3H/3W - 0 Dead Terminators - (Terminators) 5 Terminators - 3H/1W/1FNP - Knight HP:6/6 - Stomp - D3 - 1 Stomp 4 hits from stomp table - 1 Terminator dies
Result: 1 Dead Terminators for 0 wounds off WK
Charge 3: (Knight) 3H/2W *one ID* - 2 Dead Terminators - (Terminators) 3 Terminators - 4H/1W/0FNP - Knight HP:5/6 - Stomp D3 - 2 Stomps 6 hits from stomp *one ID* - 1 Terminator dies
Result: 3 Dead Terminators for 1 wound off WK

Assault is not a very liable option to counter a WK IMO. Hope this helps.

**A small sample with bad rolls but the point still stands.

Ok guys, thanks for all of it.

The WK is damn dangerous and I usually shoot him with suicid grav Vets in a pod w/locator beamer. It allows my two scions squads to ds near the Marines & shoot the hell out of the monster with plasma. Once I managed to kill a WK in one turn despite it had all his wounds. The second time I used this tactic, it was against a DSing WK which arrived in the middle of my gunline. It took two turns to kill it but he wrecked everything among my tanks.

I don't think I want to engage him in CC, he's just too scary. My wish is simply to have one or two fast CC units who can charge and destroy his most important assets.

In maelstrom, his jetbikes are often a key for his victories as he can fly pretty much anywhere to grab objectives. He usually push them forward to the center of the table where I should be capable to catch them. Plus he has a Vaul Support battery which is pretty annoying against my IG infantry, not to mention his Fire Prisms.... And there are his psykers; powerful but very fragile. They are important targets that I could destroy this way.

When I shoot at this stuff, I always end up destroying it but it's quite tought. For this reason, I think some unexpected CC units striking around turn 3 could get me rid of them.

What do you think?

There are two Champions of Fenris formations that use assault terminators.

One has a DP with a psudo Veterans squad, that DS at the same time as a unit of 10 WS5 LC termies.

The other is a unit of SS/SH terminators with character upgrade out of a LRC/R. they get bonus toughness when together.

You could proxy both as a DW specialist squad.

Durandal wrote:
There are two Champions of Fenris formations that use assault terminators.

One has a DP with a psudo Veterans squad, that DS at the same time as a unit of 10 WS5 LC termies.

The other is a unit of SS/SH terminators with character upgrade out of a LRC/R. they get bonus toughness when together.

You could proxy both as a DW specialist squad.

Don't forget the void claw formation which is 5 double wolf claw terminators that deep strike turn 1. All these formations have the bonus to WS in addition to the other formation bonuses (plus their space wolves so counter attack).