Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Specific Codex rules overule general BRB rules do they not ?

Codex says they can assault the turn they disembark. Nothing prevents them from disembarking the turn they arrive.

Consider that not specifically referencing overriding a specific BRB rule may be intentional. It would serve to future proof the codex against possible BRB changes in the next edition.

The problem is the rule isn't specific. It's not specifically overriding the BRB rules. And the Codex trumps BRB doesn't matter because there isn't actually a conflict.

The worse part is that the SM formation in the SAME BOOK does the exact same thing but actually was specific about allowing them to deep striking on the turn they arrive from their drop pods.

I could certainly see a conflict. they may assault the turn they disembark, could legitimately be read as "they may assault this turn,provided they disembark"

So with that giving you permission to assault, because you disembarked, and the reserves BRB part forbidding it, there is the conflict. And as such Codex would win.
I think It is ambiguously written, and I see this thread reaching 5 pages.

Except it is not in conflict. A conflict would be "You may assault after disembarking, even if you arrived by deep strike that turn." In this case you have "cannot assault after deep strike" vs "can assault after deep strike".

CONTEXT
before this goes any further.

Assault vehicle.

Passengers disembarking from Access Points on a vehicle with this special rule can charge on the turn they do so (even on a turn that the vehicle was destroyed) unless the vehicle arrived from Reserve that turn.

Hungry for blood.
This unit can charge on the same turn that it disembarks from the khabrydis assault claw.

The rules are almost the same except for the assault vehicle having the reserve restriction included. So with these quotes and Codex vs BRB make of it what you will.

Personally the way I see it working is,
Is it the same turn you disembarked? If Yes - you may assault.
BRB says no (due to reserves). There is conlfict, Codex wins.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Except it is not in conflict. A conflict would be "You may assault after disembarking, even if you arrived by deep strike that turn." In this case you have "cannot assault after deep strike" vs "can assault after deep strike".

There is a conflict. One rule telling you you can assault, the other telling you you can't. They are two seperate rules but still in conflict.

Codex says you can assault, and why (because you disembarked). BRB says you can't and why (reserves)

It's annoying because this same thing happened with the lucius.
Until it was faq'd, you could assault in the turn you arrive.
After going to the trouble of fixing that, they basically just started the same argument.

Do we even know if these formations are usable in all 40k games?

harkequin wrote:
There is a conflict. One rule telling you you can assault, the other telling you you can't. They are two seperate rules but still in conflict.

Can you charge after running? No. Can you charge after disembarking from an Assault Vehicle? Yes. Therefore I can charge after running as long as I disembarked from an Assault Vehicle, right?

the BRB states,

no assault turn you arrive from deepstrike,

the codex says

you may assault the turn you disembark,

ergo, if you disembark the turn you arrive from deepstrike, you have a BRB restriction, and a codex permission for the charge that turn.

When BRB and codex are in conflict over permission/restriction to charge that turn, codex > BRB

GW make it really really hard for me to believe their rules team isn't a sweatshop for monkeys.

harkequin wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Specific Codex rules overule general BRB rules do they not ?

Codex says they can assault the turn they disembark. Nothing prevents them from disembarking the turn they arrive.

Consider that not specifically referencing overriding a specific BRB rule may be intentional. It would serve to future proof the codex against possible BRB changes in the next edition.

The problem is the rule isn't specific. It's not specifically overriding the BRB rules. And the Codex trumps BRB doesn't matter because there isn't actually a conflict.

The worse part is that the SM formation in the SAME BOOK does the exact same thing but actually was specific about allowing them to deep striking on the turn they arrive from their drop pods.

I could certainly see a conflict. they may assault the turn they disembark, could legitimately be read as "they may assault this turn,provided they disembark"

So with that giving you permission to assault, because you disembarked, and the reserves BRB part forbidding it, there is the conflict. And as such Codex would win.
I think It is ambiguously written, and I see this thread reaching 5 pages.

That's not a conflict. You only have a conflict when two rules can't function simultaneously (such as invis making you hit on 6+ and Kharn hitting on 2+, you can't do both at the same time)

This is simply a case of a a restriction, not a conflict.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
the BRB states,

no assault turn you arrive from deepstrike,

the codex says

you may assault the turn you disembark,

ergo, if you disembark the turn you arrive from deepstrike, you have a BRB restriction, and a codex permission for the charge that turn.

When BRB and codex are in conflict over permission/restriction to charge that turn, codex > BRB

Restrictions require specific permission to be played with. That's why regular assault vehicle rules don't already let you assault on the turn they arrive from reserves.

The Fist of Khorne's rule is worded in pretty much the same way as the assault vehicle rule is worded.

the above is incorrect for two reasons

no regular assault vehicles dont work as a BRB vs codex conflict because

A thats a BRB vs BRB rule

and

B the BRB rule on assault vehicles specifically mentions it wont work from reserve.

that assault rules and the formation rules are worded almost identically, but the formation rules leave out the reserves restrictions that the assault vehicle rules have... which is the exact difference we are talking about.. so when the most pertinent part of the two rules is different, that doesnt help your case, it hinders it in fact.




the formations rules are in a codex, and they are very much in conflict with and over ride the BRB rules, as thats what we are told to do when the two rules come into conflict.

Assault vehicle rule

"Passengers disembarking from Access points on a vehicle with this special rules can charge on the turn they do so (even in a turn that the vehicle was destroyed or in the following turn) unless the vehicle arrived from reserve that turn"

Blood hungry
" this unit can assault on the same turn it disembarks from the Kharybdis assault claw"

Its still not a conflict because its a restiction.

Spot the difference? It's a terribly written rule, but it is a specific rule allowing you to assault the turn you disembark.

You can disembark turn 1. Then you can assault turn 1.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Its still not a conflict because its a restiction.

because its a restriction,

there is a conflict,

because the restriction is in the BRB

and the permission is in the codex.


both the requirements to enact the BRB rule and the CODEX rule are met, so both rules are enacted, and they very much conflict.

Codex > rulebook by RAW

1st turn charge is in this case both OBVIOUS RAI, and RAW as well.

Restrictions require specific permission to be ignored. That is how permissive rule sets work.

People keep saying it specifically over rides and that there is a conflict, there is no conflict because the wording doesn't allow there to be one.

The codex isn't over ruling the BRB its just not. Nothing in it says anything which would allow you to see a conflict (bar it isn't how you want the unit to work).

 easysauce wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Its still not a conflict because its a restiction.

because its a restriction,

there is a conflict,

because the restriction is in the BRB

and the permission is in the codex.


both the requirements to enact the BRB rule and the CODEX rule are met, so both rules are enacted, and they very much conflict.

Codex > rulebook by RAW

1st turn charge is in this case both OBVIOUS RAI, and RAW as well.

So could they disembark then run and then charge in the same turn? Could they disembark fire heavy/rapidfire/salvo weapons and charge in the same turn?

Glad someone is paying attention and spotted that.

With a blanket permission, yes, you can do all those things ,(although running is the only realistic one)

Which is why blanket permissions are terrible rules writing.

 easysauce wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Its still not a conflict because its a restiction.

because its a restriction,

there is a conflict,

because the restriction is in the BRB

and the permission is in the codex.


both the requirements to enact the BRB rule and the CODEX rule are met, so both rules are enacted, and they very much conflict.

Codex > rulebook by RAW

1st turn charge is in this case both OBVIOUS RAI, and RAW as well.

No, that isnt how permissive systems work. You need specific permission to override a specific restriction

Or else you are stating that the restriction on charging after running is overridden by this rule. That is somehow I got heavy weapons onto my berzerkers, they could still charge having firedthem

Yoru argument is, factually, a nonsense. It is *exactfly* as flawed as the 5th ed argument on running and assaulting as long as you did it from a landraider.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Glad someone is paying attention and spotted that.

With a blanket permission, yes, you can do all those things ,(although running is the only realistic one)

Which is why blanket permissions are terrible rules writing.

Nope see Nos' post:

"No, that isnt how permissive systems work. You need specific permission to override a specific restriction 

Or else you are stating that the restriction on charging after running is overridden by this rule. That is somehow I got heavy weapons onto my berzerkers, they could still charge having firedthem 

Yoru argument is, factually, a nonsense. It is *exactfly* as flawed as the 5th ed argument on running and assaulting as long as you did it from a landraider."

Note how your argument allows all these things from any assault vehicle...

Yes exactly, the rules can't do everything. So it does nothing. It's written by someone who didn't know the rules. They probably assumed that you have to disembark the turn you land , so there would be no ambiguity. The space marine drop pod formation has the same issue, but no one cares because the intent is obvious.

This one needs a house ruling to work properly.

 Happyjew wrote:

harkequin wrote:
There is a conflict. One rule telling you you can assault, the other telling you you can't. They are two seperate rules but still in conflict.

Can you charge after running? No. Can you charge after disembarking from an Assault Vehicle? Yes. Therefore I can charge after running as long as I disembarked from an Assault Vehicle, right?

This is not the same. This is BRB vs BRB, and as such entirely different. We are talking about BRB vs Codex which works differently for overriding things.

Would be great for Warriors Of Chaos WFB, I run Khorne, and if i could use Daemons aswell, it would be great!

Happy Hunting,
Ember

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Yes exactly, the rules can't do everything. So it does nothing. It's written by someone who didn't know the rules. They probably assumed that you have to disembark the turn you land , so there would be no ambiguity. The space marine drop pod formation has the same issue, but no one cares because the intent is obvious.

This one needs a house ruling to work properly.

It doesn't need house ruling at all. We know what the intent is so play by that no need for a house rule.

Well you and I know that, but persuading YMDC ?

harkequin wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

harkequin wrote:
There is a conflict. One rule telling you you can assault, the other telling you you can't. They are two seperate rules but still in conflict.

Can you charge after running? No. Can you charge after disembarking from an Assault Vehicle? Yes. Therefore I can charge after running as long as I disembarked from an Assault Vehicle, right?

This is not the same. This is BRB vs BRB, and as such entirely different. We are talking about BRB vs Codex which works differently for overriding things.

No, this is exactly the same situation as regards conflicts. This allows you to assault having disembarked. This does not mean "regardless of any other circumstance whastsoever, you may assault have disembarked"

There are 2 restrictions in place: Assault after disembarking froma vehicle, assault after arriving from reserves. Which restriction does this permission *explicitly* raise? the former.

There isn't a rules conflict comparing BRB to the formation. The problem is the Kharybdis expressly states you cannot assault on the turn you deepstrike. Unless the formation rewrites that rule, then you have to include the prohibition on assaulting after deep strike.

As a side note - using heat blast or melta ram on the kharybdis prevents disembarking.

this would be codex vs BRB if it actually specifically over ruled the BRB.

But it doesn't since it says nothing about if you come out of reserve. And there are other possibilities like a second turn charge after using it as a skimmer.

Crystal clear to me. They can disembark on the turn it arrives, therefore they can charge that turn.

But the back and forth has already been going on for two pages, so whatever.

Pretty much everyone will play it that way.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
this would be codex vs BRB if it actually specifically over ruled the BRB.

But it doesn't since it says nothing about if you come out of reserve. And there are other possibilities like a second turn charge after using it as a skimmer.

It is an assault vehicle so it can already do that. So what do you think the formation rule does that it can't already do?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
this would be codex vs BRB if it actually specifically over ruled the BRB.

But it doesn't since it says nothing about if you come out of reserve. And there are other possibilities like a second turn charge after using it as a skimmer.

It is an assault vehicle so it can already do that. So what do you think the formation rule does that it can't already do?

GW wrote a bad rule?

Never in the world!