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You'll be charging me. Losing Poison, re-rolls to wound, and two ranks of attacks.
But more likely than not, I'll charge something else instead, and shoot those Eternal Guard instead, or some other traitorous choice.

The "this unit is scary in this position. I'll put them in that positron and wait for someone to charge me" tactic just isn't viable.
The "throw some Stubborn models in the enemy's way so they can't get my fragile shooty units" tactic is much more sound. Not strictly necessary in this book, but a workable choice nonetheless.

The units that make up most Asrai armies are Glade Guard, Glade Riders, Scouts, Wildriders, Waywatchers and Eagles. Add wizards to taste.
This is also one of the few armies where a BSB isn't an absolute given. The re-rolls aren't as amazing here. Then again, the toys you can also give that character are worth it.

To be honest, there might have been an element of "I'm a dwarf and I get to charge something? Where do I sign?"

It is true that most Wood Elf armies tend to resolve around shooting and avoidance. I would say that it's also true that some people really don't like playing against Wood Elves for that very reason. Youtuber Mr. Malorian moans about them quite a lot here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYGQDoPwUyE and I've seen moaning about it other places too.
This is why I tend to play a slightly more "standard, battle line" army.
Totally depends on your gaming groups but it's worth bearing in mind.

Oh, I absolutely hate total avoidance armies.

If you bring an army that absolutely crushes me in close combat, okay. A little frustrating, but okay.
If you bring a gunline or enough magic to blow me away before I can come to grips with you, I guess. More frustrating. But also hard for you to manage.
If, however, you bring an army that takes cheap shots at mine while dancing around and denying me any real chance of retaliating...that is by far the most frustrating sort of game.

If your Movement, Magic, Shooting, and Close Combat phases are more effective than mine, you win. Good job. But if you try to deny me three of those four phases, and make the fourth not matter...yeah. That's not really an enjoyable game.

As far as the specific example of Dwarfs versus Eternal Guard, I'm not looking into why those specific players made those specific decisions. This is Tactics. So I'm talking tactics. And Wood Elves have better options.
One thing I'd consider is a larger unit, with most of the models in the woods, deployed wide and blocking off a big chunk of the board. Maybe with some Trueflight archers behind them. Force your opponent to grind out those Stubborn Elves.

The tactic in this case was supposed to be "pin the enemy with the Eternal Guard then flank charge with Wardancers / Wildriders" or possibly "Pin the opponent with Eternal Guard then cast Mindrazor", but that wasn't really needed. So it depends what you mean by "better options". If you need a combat block to hold one area, then it's that or a treeman. Treekin don't have the killing power to win combats or the stubborn to stick around, Wildwood Rangers again lack stubborn and have no armour at all to protect them and dryads... we don't like to talk about the dryads.

In that battle if I remember rightly I was taking a rather strange list just for fun - it featured just 5 bows (on Glade Riders) and 5 Javelins on Sisters as it's only missile weapons. Quite a fun game, but not really a sound tactical choice most of the time!

As I've said, many times at this point, Eternal Guard are the best option Wood Elves have to holding the enemy back. I've never claimed anything contrary to that.
Just don't expect them to win combats without a ton of odds in their favor. So...don't expect them to win combats. Because any unit can beat the opposition, if they have enough factors in their favor.

And holding the enemy in place cannot often be accomplished if you sit in a forest and hope they charge you. Nine times out of ten, you need to go where the enemy is, and get in their way.


As far as the Wood Elf book goes...it seems to me like Dryads are terrible, Wildwood Rangers not much better, and Treekin are okay.
Warhawk Riders look great compared to most other flying cavalry, but how are they within the army itself?

Which is exactly what I did - and due to my placement of my free forest, in the enemy way was actually in the forest. t

I still think you're selling the Eternal Guard short here, though. For one thing, they're pretty much the only thing in a Wood Elf army that can actually break steadfast (without a wood, of course), and a high weaponskill and ASF are not to be underestimated against regular rank-and-file.
As for beating thing when they have factors in their favour, welcome to playing wood elves! That's pretty much our shtick! No point fighting the enemy when odds are against you after all.

Sadly, I can't comment on the viability of Warhawk riders as I've yet to put mine together. From what I gather though they make good chaff clearers, war machine hunters, occasional character assassins (KB on the hawks) and a handy cannonball screen for Treemen, should that be required.

That is a very different scenario, then.

I have said that they're good at holding up the enemy. They're very, very good at that.
But they have a poor save and are S3 and T3. I don't care what your WS is, or if you have ASF. Strength and Toughness are almost always the largest factors in a unit's fighting ability.

Welcome to playing Wood Elves? Um. No. Welcome to Warhammer. What army performs well when the odds are staked against them? ...none. Because the very nature of performance is based on the odds.
Saying "Eternal Guard can be really good when you put two characters in there and they get charged while in a Venom Thicket" is like me saying "Slaves are actually really good when you cast Death Frenzy and Wither and flank charge a low-I unit". Or, my personal favorite, "unit X is great when you cast Mindrazor".
Of course they're good in those situations.

Eternal Guard are decent against incredibly elite and lethal units like Skullcrushers (because they're Stubborn). Against anything they can beat reliably (WS3 S3 T3 models, for example), you're losing out on their key strength.

Warpsolution wrote:
That is a very different scenario, then.

I have said that they're good at holding up the enemy. They're very, very good at that.
But they have a poor save and are S3 and T3. I don't care what your WS is, or if you have ASF. Strength and Toughness are almost always the largest factors in a unit's fighting ability.

To damage a unit you have to hit that unit first. A high WS and ASF definitely give you an advantage. Don't get me wrong, S and T are important, and Eternal guard do miss out there, but they definitely have the edge against otherwise similar units - so throwing them into a fight against Empire Swordmen is not really such a terrible idea for instance.

Welcome to playing Wood Elves? Um. No. Welcome to Warhammer. What army performs well when the odds are staked against them? ...none. Because the very nature of performance is based on the odds.

See, what I meant was that playing wood elves (and indeed Warmhammer in general) is all about manipulating odd in your favour. Woodelves are an army reliant on manoeuvrability, so getting good combats are what it's all about.

Saying "Eternal Guard can be really good when you put two characters in there and they get charged while in a Venom Thicket" is like me saying "Slaves are actually really good when you cast Death Frenzy and Wither and flank charge a low-I unit".

Perhaps, but a little easier to pull off. Eternal Guard in a WE army are one of the better places to actually put combat characters like Shadowdancer, who can use their rank nullifying dances to better effect within a large ranked unit - something Wood elves don't have a lot of.

Or, my personal favorite, "unit X is great when you cast Mindrazor".
Of course they're good in those situations.

Well yes, but some things are better targets of Mindrazor than others for instance. Far better to cast it on WS6 2A Wardancers then basic glade guard for instance. Don't build your strategy
around it, but still something worth bearing in mind.

Eternal Guard are decent against incredibly elite and lethal units like Skullcrushers (because they're Stubborn). Against anything they can beat reliably (WS3 S3 T3 models, for example), you're losing out on their key strength.

Perhaps, but if you've no better choices to fight such a unit, Eternal guard do just fine there.

 Aben Zin wrote:
To damage a unit you have to hit that unit first. A high WS and ASF definitely give you an advantage

Crunch the numbers. Take any unit in the game, and pit it up against any other unit in the game. Increase it's WS by 1. See how much that helps. Then increase it's I, or A, or add ASF.
A point in S or T is more significant than a point in any of them.

 Aben Zin wrote:
See, what I meant was that playing wood elves (and indeed Warmhammer in general) is all about manipulating odd in your favour. Wood Elves are an army reliant on manoeuvrability, so getting good combats are what it's all about.

So we're saying the same thing; trying to stack the odds in your favor isn't a Wood Elf thing. It's a Warhammer thing.
The difference is that you're taking that to mean that your claim is thus validated, where I'm saying it's entirely the opposite.
Chaos Warriors rock. On an open field. In a building. Charging. Taking a charge. They're good in a wide variety of situations, which makes it easier for me to tip the scales in my favor, and win.
The moment you start saying "this unit is good when...", you're adding additional elements. Each of which can be foiled or countered by your opponent, and thus reduce the efficiency of the unit in question.

 Aben Zin wrote:
Perhaps, but a little easier to pull off. Eternal Guard in a WE army are one of the better places to actually put combat characters like Shadowdancer, who can use their rank nullifying dances to better effect within a large ranked unit - something Wood elves don't have a lot of.

Two characters. Getting charged. While in a specific type of Forest. Two spells. Charging a flank. Into low-Initiative models.
They're pretty similar in a vacuum, from a purely statistical stance.
And Shadowdancers...aren't those generally considered sub-par, anyway?

 Aben Zin wrote:
some things are better targets of Mindrazor than others for instance. Far better to cast it on WS6 2A Wardancers then basic glade guard for instance. Don't build your strategy around it, but still something worth bearing in mind.

Of course some things are better targets than others. That's not my point.

 Aben Zin wrote:
Perhaps, but if you've no better choices to fight such a unit, Eternal guard do just fine there.

If you don't have any better choices, then...well, who cares?
And, maybe, if you had taken something else instead of Eternal Guard, you would have a better choice. Statements like this are completely empty.

Here's where I think things got tangled: this thread is about a relatively new player, wanting to know what to do next with their army.
The bottom line on Eternal Guard is that you don't see them in most lists. Does that mean they're useless? No. Of course not. Does it mean that they're not amongst the most efficient choices in the book? Ah. Yeah, it does.
I am all for using uncommon units. I am even more for using uncommon units in atypical ways, and being an overall cunning and resourceful commander, etc.
But when someone asks me "what's a good place to start?" or "what should I get next?", I leave the unconventional stratagems on the shelf, and stick to the basics.
Eternal Guard are not a bad unit. I never said they were. I'm saying that there are more efficient units in the book, that synergyize more easily with the others available.

Warpsolution wrote: Crunch the numbers. Take any unit in the game, and pit it up against any other unit in the game. Increase it's WS by 1. See how much that helps. Then increase it's I, or A, or add ASF.
A point in S or T is more significant than a point in any of them.

True, but Eternal Guard don't have an above average S or T. They do have above average WS, I and ASF (and AP on their spears as well, lest we forget), so they are, in general above average. What you seem to be arguing is that because they aren't higher in S or T then they're not above average. Which is not true.

So we're saying the same thing; trying to stack the odds in your favor isn't a Wood Elf thing. It's a Warhammer thing.
The difference is that you're taking that to mean that your claim is thus validated, where I'm saying it's entirely the opposite.
Chaos Warriors rock. On an open field. In a building. Charging. Taking a charge. They're good in a wide variety of situations, which makes it easier for me to tip the scales in my favor, and win.

/*

Well yes. They're widely agreed on as one of the best units in the game. But Wood Elves don't have any Chaos Warriors, so I find it hard to recommend taking them in a Wood Elf army.

The moment you start saying "this unit is good when...", you're adding additional elements. Each of which can be foiled or countered by your opponent, and thus reduce the efficiency of the unit in question.

I agree. But I never said that - I just gave an example of how they can be used, and indeed were to good effect.
I've never said they were the be all and end all unit that slaughter all in their paths, and I'm a little confused as to where you got that idea from. I just said they weren't terrible (which they aren't) and gave a personal example.

Two characters. Getting charged. While in a specific type of Forest. Two spells. Charging a flank. Into low-Initiative models.
They're pretty similar in a vacuum, from a purely statistical stance.

No, not really. For a start, I put the wood there, named it a venom thicket, and then moved into it. Those things are something which the opponent has little or no control over. He didn't have to charge, so that's one opponent controlled variable.
2 spells, both require sufficient winds of magic to cast (one random variable) and for the opponent not to have dispelled them (1 variable over which the opponent has at least partial control over, especially with a dispel scroll thrown into the mix), into a flank (1 variable at least partially opponent controlled) of low I models (1 hugely army dependent variable).

And Shadowdancers...aren't those generally considered sub-par, anyway?

Depends who you ask. Certainly they're not needed in an avoidance so in that respect they're sub-par but for what they can being to a fight they're not all that bad.

Of course some things are better targets than others. That's not my point.

But it is certainly a point worth considering. Being good to be buffed is a point in a units favour. Not useful all the time, certainly, but worth thinking about in the whole battle plan.

If you don't have any better choices, then...well, who cares?
And, maybe, if you had taken something else instead of Eternal Guard, you would have a better choice. Statements like this are completely empty.

No they're not! I'm saying that Eternal Guard are good against these units.That's a point in their favour! In fact, they're probably the best thing in a wood elf army to actually fight an average block of average guys because they'll probably win!

Here's where I think things got tangled: this thread is about a relatively new player, wanting to know what to do next with their army.
The bottom line on Eternal Guard is that you don't see them in most lists. Does that mean they're useless? No. Of course not. Does it mean that they're not amongst the most efficient choices in the book? Ah. Yeah, it does.
I am all for using uncommon units. I am even more for using uncommon units in atypical ways, and being an overall cunning and resourceful commander, etc.
But when someone asks me "what's a good place to start?" or "what should I get next?", I leave the unconventional stratagems on the shelf, and stick to the basics.
Eternal Guard are not a bad unit. I never said they were. I'm saying that there are more efficient units in the book, that synergyize more easily with the others available.

And again it depends on play style - which is what I said from the get go. They don't appear on most lists because most lists are based on shooting and avoidance.
To be honest, Wood Elves are a bit of a weird army. Shooty avoidance is something of a specialised tactic for most armies but the first port of call for most wood elf players. So much so, in fact, that I wouldn't usually recommend Wood Elves to a new player.
Eternal Guard don't usually fit into such an army, but would fit into a more conventional melee orientated army quite well.

As to our poor OP (who's now either looking on bemused or gone to find some less shouty advice elsewhere), he was asking what are good units to hold up enemy units, and really Eternal Guard are the best thing we got, so that's what I recommended.

...okay. I'm going to try and make this as concise as possible.

 Aben Zin wrote:
...Eternal Guard don't have an above average S or T. They do have above average WS, I and ASF (and AP on their spears as well, lest we forget), so they are, in general above average. What you seem to be arguing is that because they aren't higher in S or T then they're not above average.

First, in Warhammer, the average score of the basic stats is 4. Second, no. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that they're not very good at killing enemy models. Because, when compared to the whole of other units that would be considered good at such things, they aren't.

 Aben Zin wrote:
...Wood Elves don't have any Chaos Warriors, so I find it hard to recommend taking them in a Wood Elf army.

Not at all the point. If your offensive unit is half as good as your opponent's offensive unit, things will be tough for you. That's why Wood Elves have some of the best evasive and shooting units in the game.

 Aben Zin wrote:
But I never said that - I just gave an example of how they can be used, and indeed were to good effect.
I've never said they were the be all and end all unit that slaughter all in their paths, and I'm a little confused as to where you got that idea from. I just said they weren't terrible (which they aren't) and gave a personal example.

I didn't get that idea from anywhere. Because it's not my idea. And I never said anything even remotely to that effect.
I said they're not a good unit in terms of killing the enemy or winning combats. That Wood Elves have better options in that regard.
You said that you disagreed, and offered an example to support your stance.
I pointed out that the example offered was a poor way to measure a unit's effectiveness, and so on.

 Aben Zin wrote:
Depends who you ask...but for what they can being to a fight they're not all that bad.

Whether or not they're part of an avoidance strategy isn't the only issue. It's a matter of how much you're paying for their fighting ability, etc. Most people seem to think they're far too pricey for such a fragile model. I guess negating ranks can be useful, but +3CR...eh. Against anything with lots of ranks, the Eternal Guard are either going to reliably win (Goblins, Halberdiers, etc) or be absolutely crushed (Deathstars). I don't see it coming into play much. But I've never seen them played, so maybe.

 Aben Zin wrote:
But it is certainly a point worth considering. Being good to be buffed is a point in a units favour. Not useful all the time, certainly, but worth thinking about in the whole battle plan.

...okay. Let me try this again. Saying "unit of X could beat unit Y if I cast a spell that gave unit X +4S" is a useless comment. Because, well, most units will win combats when you stick their Leadership value in place of Strength. Even Ld5 Goblins would be scary. Not as scary as Ld8, ASF, Poison, ASF Witchelves with A3 each, but still pretty scary.
Mindrazor is the big bad spell of Shadow. When you cast Purple Sun, or Final Transmutation, or Dwellers, it has an immediate and significant impact on the game. Mindrazor's the same way, and should come to bear in conversations about a unit's effectiveness in only the most minor of ways, if at all.

 Aben Zin wrote:
No they're not! I'm saying that Eternal Guard are good against these units.That's a point in their favour! In fact, they're probably the best thing in a wood elf army to actually fight an average block of average guys because they'll probably win!

You said "if you've no better choice to fight, such a unit, Eternal Guard do just fine..."
I'm saying, if I have no other choice, it doesn't matter. If all I have left to face off against 12 Trolls is one Great Eagle and three Glade Guard, then I guess I'm fighting 12 Trolls with one Great Eagle and three Glade Guard. What matters is when you have a choice, and what the best choice is.
If I'm playing against Wood Elves, I hope they send their Eternal Guard into my Slaves and Clanrats. That combat will take forever, and means that my actually effective combat units won't be stuck grinding with 20 Stubborn models.
I'm much more worried about the Eternal Guard holding my scary units in place while all the Glade Guard thin down my hordes of crap troops, and then have the Wildriders sweep in and finish them off.
...Wildriders, by the way, are the best combat unit Wood Elves have. Easily. They don't have ranks, sure, but Wood Elves are great at thinning the ranks a bit before combat.

 Aben Zin wrote:
And again it depends on play style - which is what I said from the get go. They don't appear on most lists because most lists are based on shooting and avoidance.

And I agreed with that, and said as much, from the get-go. Eternal Guard aren't needed in a typical list, as is their fluff.
...but in lists that they do work well in, you've still got better killy choices. They're best on the defense. That's been my whole stance, every step of the way.

 Aben Zin wrote:
As to our poor OP (who's now either looking on bemused or gone to find some less shouty advice elsewhere), he was asking what are good units to hold up enemy units, and really Eternal Guard are the best thing we got, so that's what I recommended.

There's nothing poor about the OP. This is a perfectly legit use of Tactics, and of this thread, specifically.
Eternal Guard are good at holding up enemy units. Yes. Again, I agree with that. And said so. A lot. But Wood Elves don't NEED units to do any such thing. And that seems like an even more valuable piece of advice to pass on to a player. As you said, it's a weird army. No sense in letting a new player try to play them like all the other armies, and miss out on their key strengths.

I meant the poor OP in that this thread is now just us arguing. And holding up units is what he asked for.

For your contention that the average stat is 4... What? Average S and T for humans, elves and Skaven is 3. In the OPs case his opponents are mainly elves. Strength and toughness of 4 is the exception, and usually applied to only one of those stats.
You originally said that Eternal Guard are terrible, which is what I was disputing.

Of course, Wild Riders are better on the offensive, and I'd thoroughly recommend them but Eternal guard can still win fights. What I was saying is that if you have a unit of,say empire swordsmen threatening your super squishy glade guard that Eternal Guard can beat them, rather than just hold them.

Just to summarise Eternal Guard:
Pros:
- high leadership and stubborn, meaning they'll seldom break
- a decent number of attacks on the defence
- High weapon skill, initiative and ASF
- A Core choice (something that's not been mentioned yet) giving you more room in Specials to take Deepwood scouts and those ever lovely Wild Riders)

Cons
- low S and T
- low armour saves (though still good for Wood Elves!)
- not very manoeuvrable.

So a perfectably playable unit.

1. The average WS, BS, S, T and I are 4 in the Warhammer world.
The Strength of the average human is 3, yes, but when you add the S values of very model in the game, and divide by thy number of those models--the mathematical average--you get 4.
Someone posted a lot of math to prove it a while back. And they might have only been counting non-characters and non-monsters; I can't recall, exactly.

2. I said Eternal Guard are weird. They're fairly cheap, for a Stubborn model, and they're Core, which is crazy.
But that's what you're paying for. Stubborn. They're not very good at winning fights. Are they awful? No, they're elves. And slightly better-than-average elves, at that. But for that point cost? Yeah. They're a bad unit...beyond the fact that they have Stubborn. Which is a powerful rule, on it's own. So they're not the worst. They're just very specialized.

Killing 6 Skavenslaves and losing 1 Eternal Guard...yeah. No thanks. I'll throw them into my enemy's biggest, scariest unit to slow it down. Not have them fight crap models that my Glade Guard can fill with arrows.

Warpsolution wrote:
1. The average WS, BS, S, T and I are 4 in the Warhammer world.
The Strength of the average human is 3, yes, but when you add the S values of very model in the game, and divide by thy number of those models--the mathematical average--you get 4.
Someone posted a lot of math to prove it a while back. And they might have only been counting non-characters and non-monsters; I can't recall, exactly.

I don't buy that for a moment. If you take the mean of every strength in army builder, you come up at less than 4. That doesn't pull the mounts strengths either, which averages well under 4. Same goes for toughness.
If you disregard characters, the average strength and toughness rapidly drops below 4's.

Add in mounts, and disregard characters, and even the most hitty armies drop quickly, chaos sees an 11% drop for losing characters, Skaven drops over 20% with the loss of the character factor.
Unsurprisingly, the average strength and toughness of the warhammer world is actually around 3.5

Average doesn't mean much though, because low stat models show up in huge numbers (skaven slaves, zombies, night goblins) and high strength models (trolls, phoenix, chaos chariots) show up in much lower counts; and really low stat models (bat swarms, jungle swarms, snotlings) hard get fielded at all.

I don't actually recall the math, and I certainly didn't bother checking it every step of the way; it seemed pretty legit, so I trusted it was close enough.
For all I know, the average they came up with was 3.65, and they rounded up.

And no, the average ability score value doesn't mean much, usually. I was just pointing out an issue with the definition of the term, based on the information I had.
Though I would say there's something to be said for models that shoe up in smaller numbers and also have lower stats..

Warpsolution wrote:

Killing 6 Skavenslaves and losing 1 Eternal Guard...yeah. No thanks. I'll throw them into my enemy's biggest, scariest unit to slow it down. Not have them fight crap models that my Glade Guard can fill with arrows.

this WAY

In my experience you have this WAY the wrong way round. Unless you fire every arrow you have at a big unit of skaven slaves you're barely going to make a dent. Unless you're trying sneaky tricks like Swiftshiver shafts with Hand of Glory, you're usually much better off shooting at the bigger stuff, especially with Hagsbane arrows. If I've taken out your artillery, monsters and got rid of an threatening chaff. then I'll target your slaves.

What you seem to be saying is that Eternal guard are not very good at winning fights against top level enemy units, but that's what you want them to be fighting so they can take advantage of their Stubborn and LD... But they are still capable of beating lesser units on their own merit?
That's a win-win! Either you're beating the enemy or your holding them up in combat!
Where's the downside here?

The downside, from what I see of most lists, is that you're spending...250pts or so? On a unit that benefits from different strategies than the rest of the army employs.
As I said to the OP; Wood Elves don't need anvils or main battle lines. And, I would say, perform at their highest levels without them.

And yes, I agree that you shouldn't be shooting Slaves before my big scary things are put down, if it can be helped.
But for it's cost, those Eternal Guard aren't very good at fighting such cheap units. Sure, they win the combat. Just...not by very much, and with little gain.

5 Wild Riders inflict...12 wounds in the first round and take 1 in return. Then it's 9 and 1. If the unit in question is already crippled (as it hopefully is), that is most likely enough to see them off.
Eternal Guard are okay at grinding. Okay. Not great. Expensive, fragile, and with a weak punch. They'll cause a fair number of hits, sure, but they aren't anything close to the meat grinder that their kin can field. They're cheaper, of course, and that's nice, but still. At any rate, they want to grind. And Wood Elves don't usually want to, as an army.
Say I broke through your lines with an Abomination and a big block of Slaves. Both will be charging you next turn. You can send the Eternal Guard to intercept one of them. They'll beat the Slaves in combat, sure, but your army will usually be better off dealing with the Slaves than the Abomination.

This has grown tiresome. The simple facts are:

-Eternal Guard are primarily a defensive unit.

-Eternal Guard struggle against moderate T and armour, and kill fewer models than other Wood Elf units.

-Eternal Guard benefit from a playstyle that most of the other Wood Elf units do not.

-Eternal Guard are not an optimal choice.

They're good at what they do. Point-for-point, they're not great at other stuff.

Warpsolution wrote:
The downside, from what I see of most lists, is that you're spending...250pts or so? On a unit that benefits from different strategies than the rest of the army employs.
As I said to the OP; Wood Elves don't need anvils or main battle lines. And, I would say, perform at their highest levels without them.

No, wood elves don't always need anvils in exactly one of their builds. And rookie players don't usually play at their highest levels. By playing a less evasive army you usually have more fun, your opponent has more fun and you learn more about how an army is usually played.
And there is still a place in some evasion lists for eternal guard- if you have what looks like what could be a battle line your opponent will often be drawn toward your Eternals rather than the flighty elements. They can also be taken in small units just as speed bumps, just to stall the enemy.

And yes, I agree that you shouldn't be shooting Slaves before my big scary things are put down, if it can be helped.
But for it's cost, those Eternal Guard aren't very good at fighting such cheap units. Sure, they win the combat. Just...not by very much, and with little gain.

That can still be enough.

5 Wild Riders inflict...12 wounds in the first round and take 1 in return. Then it's 9 and 1. If the unit in question is already crippled (as it hopefully is), that is most likely enough to see them off.

And so, most likely, are your Wild Riders. They're T3 as well you know, and 4+ and 6++ only go so far.

Eternal Guard are okay at grinding. Okay. Not great. Expensive, fragile, and with a weak punch. They'll cause a fair number of hits, sure, but they aren't anything close to the meat grinder that their kin can field. They're cheaper, of course, and that's nice, but still. At any rate, they want to grind. And Wood Elves don't usually want to, as an army.

Or just hold until you can flank the foe with something more Killy, like the Wild Riders. The Tank and Spank - It's a classic!

Say I broke through your lines with an Abomination and a big block of Slaves. Both will be charging you next turn. You can send the Eternal Guard to intercept one of them. They'll beat the Slaves in combat, sure, but your army will usually be better off dealing with the Slaves than the Abomination.

Sadly I can't say I've faced an abomination, but by and large wood elf shooting deals better with monsters than with big blocks.

This has grown tiresome.

That's cos your losing!

The simple facts are:

-Eternal Guard are primarily a defensive unit.

Yep.

-Eternal Guard struggle against moderate T and armour, and kill fewer models than other Wood Elf units.

Good toughness units. And while this is true, the only things that are better at killing usually don't have a rank bonus as well.
And even then, they come from the Special allowance rather than core.

-Eternal Guard benefit from a playstyle that most of the other Wood Elf units do not.

Like Dryads, Wildwood rangers, Wild riders, treekin, treemen and Wardancers you mean? Which is to say, half of the units in the army?

They're good at what they do. Point-for-point, they're not great at other stuff.

Doing what they're meant to do is kind of the point of every unit. Should you not take Glade Guard because they can't cast magic, or Wild Riders because they don't fire cannon balls? That they can actually beat other units, especially when properly supported, makes them pretty great!

Should our OP buy them before Wild Riders? Probably not because (let's be honest here) Wild Riders are pretty amazing. Like, really amazing. OP! Go buy some Wild Riders!
Should our OP ignore them completely? I say no. They're a good, solid unit that will do him well.

I know they've done me well.

Things being "enough" is okay. Things being easily and overwhelmingly more than enough is better.

Wood Elf shooting has an easier time killing Monsters, yes. But if you had to choose between a unit with 3 ranks coming in with 10 WS2 S3 attacks, with a massive flank and M5, versus a unit that inflicts, on average, 13 S6 hits, denies you the ability to Stand and Shoot or Flee, and can charge in a 360 arc...one of those two scenarios is going to hurt you more.
Granted, if you've got no efficient way to re-direct an enemy unit, and you've got 40 Glade Guard with Hagsbane in range, then yeah. Go for the monster. But if it's late in the game, and your forces are diminished and spread thin, better to hold him down while you take a turn to redress the line.

Glade Guard are better at killing high T and high armour models.

Wild Riders still benefit from an avoidance playstyle. You want to charge headlong into my ranks? Please. Be my guest.
Dryads are terrible. Rangers are lackluster. I haven't seen much in the way of Wardancers, lately. Treekin...T5 Ogres with better armour and a Ward save can't be awful. Not for that price. But yeah. They're not as good as they ought to be. And Treemen can totally play the avoidance game, too. Small footprint, good movement.

Some units are specialized; they rock in their niche, and they suck outside it. Others are more general; they don't rock quite as hard when things are in their favor, but they don't bite it as bad when things are against them.
Wood Elves are an army of specialized troops, more or less. Eternal Guard are just a weird example of such. Stubborn, but T3 and little armour, coupled with a poor offensive output is just...yeah. Weird.

I guess the bottom line is that Eternal Guard aren't the worst unit in the book, but there are plenty of other options to spend your points on, if you want the best list you can field.

Oddly the Treekin are usually regarded as a poor choice for the reasons you give to the Eternal guard - their damage output is just too low at 3 S4 attacks each. Yes, they're one of the tougher units the Woodies can field but without static combat res and average Ld they fail in the capacity of hammer or anvil.

I guess I'd agree with your conclusion. I would say they're a very useful addition to a wood elf collection, especially if you want to switch your play style round every once in a while, or are struggling with the tactics of a purely evasive style.
That said, they're not an auto include (Wild Riders! Buy Wild Riders), just a good, solid unit.

Az

As I said. Treekin look good on paper. But yeah. Against anything moderately good at fighting, it's a tough scrape. Seems like you need a lot of Treekin to make it work.

I won't count the ability to switch up playstyle or ease of application to how good a unit is. A unit is good when it performs well for an efficient cost.

I still would not consider them especially good; they need too much support to take out the enemy, and while Stubborn Core is awesome, they die remarkably fast for their cost.
I mean, they lose to an equal cost worth of Stormvermin, even when they're charged. Sure, they'll hold, but there are too few, too fragile bodies.

I could definitely see a MSU approach to them, though. That seems to be the best use for them, aside from taking one unit of 20-30 and doubling the unit's cost with two characters. Which is weird. They just don't act like any other unit I know of.

You guys are fine. Don't go "poor OP" on me. I have just been sitting back and taking notes. As a new fantasy and WE player, I know I am the new kid, and am more than happy to let the adults scream and shout. My brain is like a sponge, so I learn fairly well. I think I will rely on shooting, and I think I have a decent little 1k list.

1 waystalker w/ bow of athel loren
1 waystalker
10 glade guard
10 glade guard
10 glade guard
10 glade guard
10 glade guard
5 waywatchers
5 waywatchers

Kinda spammy, but gives me plenty of units to cover eventualities.

I'd consider swapping some Guard for Scouts. The extra mobility and defense against shooting is worth it.

No magic...at 1,000, with such small units...I think you'll actually do just fine.

What about magic arrows?
I know Hagsbane is the best, with Trueflight being the second (better in a few situations, worse overall, but not by a ton), but I've neve seen either compared to, well, just more bodies. Might be a good idea. Might not.

Not really sure about the Waystalkers at this point level.

Warpsolution wrote:
I'd consider swapping some Guard for Scouts. The extra mobility and defense against shooting is worth it.

No magic...at 1,000, with such small units...I think you'll actually do just fine.

What about magic arrows?
I know Hagsbane is the best, with Trueflight being the second (better in a few situations, worse overall, but not by a ton), but I've neve seen either compared to, well, just more bodies. Might be a good idea. Might not.

Not really sure about the Waystalkers at this point level.

Well, gonna have to wait for someone more knowledgeable on that then me on the arrows vs bodies question. The way I see it, the main core of 50 guard are enough that at long range, all they have to do is scoot and shoot as they fall back. I am still inverse in the tactics most of you take for granted, but to me, at 1k points, the opponent can only field heroes, and low level ones at that, so the odds of them being strongly protected seems low. 2 groups of waywatchers with stalkers should be able to drop low level heroes quickly.

I was also going to comment that, point for point, enchanted arrows always beat out vanilla glade guard (at least we agree on something!).
Evertras did a good guide to all the arrows a while back (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/602327.page). He did the maths so you don't have to!
I tend to find that a mix of Hagsbane and Trueflight is the way to go.

I'd also agree with the scouts thing. An extra point for skirmishing and scout is a pretty big bonus. As for the Waystalker - if your main opponents will be elves they should do pretty well. Trouble with way stalkers is that they're only S3 and you still have to roll to hit with them. Sometimes you might find you spend the entire game trying to to take out a single model.
That said, taking out mages and BSBs before they even get close to your line can have a major effect on your opponents morale - and that of his army!

Overall, the best advice I can give you is just to get out there and play some games! Wood Elves take some getting used to, so don't be too disheartened if you find yourself losing to begin with. Until you learn what works in what situation it may seem like a bit of an uphill struggle. Wood elves are not a forgiving army to play with, but can be one of the most rewarding to master, so stick with it!

Good Luck!

Az

Hagsbane with some Trueflight mixed in. Absolutely.

Scouts seem to like Hagsbane more, since they can get into good positions, and negate a lot of those penalties. Same with Glade Riders.
That, and they can both threaten war machines early on. And you need Poison to do much of anything, there.