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 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nothing in that allows the Dlord to make a thrust move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So do you have ANY rule that states the DLord is treated as a separate unit for the assault phase or for assault phase movement?

The thrust move is a movement rule. I have quoted the relevant rules above and have shown clear permission.

You on the other hand have not shown any restriction with any rules.

The D Lord is a unit in its own right (just check the Army Entry List) and as such simply invokes the thrust move since it is all by itself a Jet Pack unit.

Thrust move requires you to be a jetpack unit correct?
When attached to the Wraiths are they a jetpack unit?
Is there any rule that allows the unit to count as a jetpack unit for the thrust move?
Is there any rule that allows the Dlord to count as a separate unit for performing a thrust move?

Heck the rules you quoted stated you have follow the rules for your unit type. Yet you insist on breaking them.

The D Lord has its own Army List Entry.

It is a Jet Pack unit in its own right.

When an IC joins a unit it becomes a part of that unit for all intents and purposes except for the character rules.

The character rules include exceptions for movement rules (see post above).

The thrust move is a movement rule.

The D Lord simply invokes the thrust move since it is a Jet Pack unit all by itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wancourb070386@yahoo.com wrote:
When the Dlord is part of the Wraith unit, he counts as being part of that unit. The Wraith unit IS NOT jetpack, therefore cannot make a Thrust Move. The rule book says:

“Thrust Move
A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2D6" in the Assault phase, even if they have shot or Run in the preceding Shooting phase or arrived by Deep Strike that turn. When Jet Pack units move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they move just as they would when using their jet packs in the Movement phase."

It says a Jetpack Unit can make the Thrust Move, the Dlord is currently counted as being part of the Wraith unit, therefore is not a Jet Pack unit and therefore NOT allowed to make a Thrust Move.

Wrong. The D Lord is not counted as being part of the Wraith unit when it comes to movement rules. It counts as its own Jet Pack unit in that context and subject to special rules for character movement.





You need to look at the full context for the actual rules in question. When you do so, it is easy to find the the problems in your argument. The rules do not say what you think they say. Special exceptions are being made for character rules which include exception for movement rules. The thrust move is a movement rule.

Surprised this is even being discussed. It's not even controversial. The D-Lord has been severely hampered as a premier force multiplier, the only unit he can keep up with in terms of good melee ability is lychguard lol.

The D Lord has its own Army List Entry.

Irrelevant.

It is a Jet Pack unit in its own right.

So I can target it separately with shooting attacks? Or is this something that isn't true once attached to the Wraiths...

When an IC joins a unit it becomes a part of that unit for all intents and purposes except for the character rules.

Thrust move is a character rule.

The character rules include exceptions for movement rules (see post above).

Yes it tells you to follow them not break them. Following rules and breaking rules are not the same thing.

The thrust move is a movement rule.

That requires a Jetpack unit something you refuse to accept.

The D Lord simply invokes the thrust move since it is a Jet Pack unit all by itself.

Again not when attached to the Wraiths he's not. So again you need to come up with a rule that allows him to count as a separate unit for the assault phase or for assault phase movement or for specifically the thrust move. Please quote such a rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

peteralmo wrote:
Surprised this is even being discussed. It's not even controversial. The D-Lord has been severely hampered as a premier force multiplier, the only unit he can keep up with in terms of good melee ability is lychguard lol.

Agreed not sure why col_impact is trying to derail the thread to defend the indefensible.

Rules. The D Lord is a unit in its own right and never loses the status of Jet Pack unit. He becomes part of the Wraith unit "for all intents and purposes" but he still has to follow the character rules. The character rules command us to follow the movement rules for models of their type. The D Lord is a Jet Pack model and still a unit in its own right.

Rules. The D Lord is a unit in its own right and never loses the status of Jet Pack unit. He becomes part of the Wraith unit "for all intents and purposes" but he still has to follow the character rules. The character rules command us to follow the movement rules for models of their type. The D Lord is a Jet Pack model and still a unit in its own right.

So I can target him separately with shooting attacks and assaults correct?

Dlords move like models of their type. The Dlord's type is "Infantry" so he moves like infantry, i.e. 6" in the move phase.

Jet Pack gives two special rules: Skyborne and Thrust Move. These are not movement types and would not fall under the "ICs move like units of their type" rule.

So I say again, a Jetpack Unit, which the Dlord is NOT when he is with the Wraiths can do the Thrust, so he cannot in this instance.

Also note how your red lines say follow rules for characters (not is a separate unit for purposes of character rules). Then the second one says follow rules for unit type not break rules for unit type as you are requiring.

wancourb070386@yahoo.com wrote:
Dlords move like models of their type. The Dlord's type is "Infantry" so he moves like infantry, i.e. 6" in the move phase.

Jet Pack gives two special rules: Skyborne and Thrust Move. These are not movement types and would not fall under the "ICs move like units of their type" rule.

So I say again, a Jetpack Unit, which the Dlord is NOT when he is with the Wraiths can do the Thrust, so he cannot in this instance.

Skyborne and Thrust Move are both movement rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Rules. The D Lord is a unit in its own right and never loses the status of Jet Pack unit. He becomes part of the Wraith unit "for all intents and purposes" but he still has to follow the character rules. The character rules command us to follow the movement rules for models of their type. The D Lord is a Jet Pack model and still a unit in its own right.

So I can target him separately with shooting attacks and assaults correct?

I have posted the relevant rules which show that for movement rules the D Lord has to follow the rules for models of its type. These exceptions do not obviously apply to shooting attacks, etc.

This is going in circles, I'm out.

I have posted the relevant rules which show that for movement rules the D Lord has to follow the rules for models of its type. These exceptions do not obviously apply to shooting attacks, etc.

Yes follow the rules not break them. So please post the rules that allow you to break the rules for his unit type. Or a rule that allows him to count as a separate unit for the purposes using unit type rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:

I have posted the relevant rules which show that for movement rules the D Lord has to follow the rules for models of its type. These exceptions do not obviously apply to shooting attacks, etc.

Yes follow the rules not break them. So please post the rules that allow you to break the rules for his unit type. Or a rule that allows him to count as a separate unit for the purposes using unit type rules.

Yet again . . . the D Lord does not count as part of the unit of Wraiths when it comes to character rules which include rules for movement.

Do you have a rule to back up your claim? Because what you posted does not support it. It simply says you still follow character rules and he follows movement rules for a model of his unit type. So do you have ANY rules to support the Dlord counting as a separate unit for the thrust move? Any at all?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Do you have a rule to back up your claim? Because what you posted does not support it. It simply says you still follow character rules and he follows movement rules for a model of his unit type. So do you have ANY rules to support the Dlord counting as a separate unit for the thrust move? Any at all?

You are just being obtuse. The rules I have quoted give me permission.

You have failed to provide rules that restrict my clear chain of permission.

Feel free to start quoting rules.

You haven't shown permission for the Dlord to count as a separate unit. The thrust move requires a jetpack unit. So you must prove that the DLord and Wraiths are a jetpack unit or that the DLord counts as a separate unit. Or you can't use thrust move. This has been pointed out to you over and over by at least 2 people on this thread. Now do you have any rules to support your stance or not?

 FlingitNow wrote:
You haven't shown permission for the Dlord to count as a separate unit. The thrust move requires a jetpack unit. So you must prove that the DLord and Wraiths are a jetpack unit or that the DLord counts as a separate unit. Or you can't use thrust move. This has been pointed out to you over and over by at least 2 people on this thread. Now do you have any rules to support your stance or not?

The D Lord is a unit in its own right. It has its own Army List Entry.

When it joins a unit of Wraiths it counts as part of the wraith unit BUT it must follow the character rules, which include character rule exceptions for movement rules so with regards to movement rules the D Lord retains its status as unit in its own right. The thrust move is a movement rule. All super clear.

The D Lord is a unit in its own right. It has its own Army List Entry.

Once again the first part is only correct when not joined to Wraiths and the second part is entirely irrelevant.

When it joins a unit of Wraiths it counts as part of the wraith unit BUT it must follow the character rules, which include character rule exceptions for movement rules so with regards to movement rules the D Lord retains its status as unit in its own right. The thrust move is a movement rule. All super clear.

Yes it follows the character rules whilst part of the unit. This is not the same as being treated as a separate unit for those rules unless you have something saying that it is? Which means the underlined has literally been made up out of thin air by you. So please don't make that claim again until you post some rules to support it. So again I'm left asking for ANY rules that state the Dlord is a separate unit from the Wraiths for the purposes of the thrust move?

For instance I am a British citizen and I was born in Malta. Thus you could say "for all legal purposes FlingitNow is a British Citizen, though he was still born in Malta". Does that statement mean that when discussing birth places I'm not a British citizen? Nope does it mean there are any circumstances where I have permission to be treated as not a British citizen? Again nope.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So again I'm left asking for ANY rules that state the Dlord is a separate unit from the Wraiths for the purposes of the thrust move?

You are just obtusely refusing to follow clear logic.

Note how your first spoiler says "though he still follows the rules for characters" not "though he counts as a separate unit when dealing with the rules for characters." Cool so no permission there for him to be a separate unit or count as a separate unit just requirement to follow rules.

Does the second spoiler provide permission to be a separate unit? "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type" oh dear not only does this again make no mention of you counting as a separate unit but requires you to follow your unit type rules not break them. What you seem to be interpreting as if it said either:

Characters follow the bits of the movement rules that you want to follow for models of their type

Or

Characters count as separate units that follow the movement rules for models of their type

Yet it doesn't say either of those things. So please for the love of god post some rules that support your stance rather than irrelevant rules or rules that deny your stance. Anything? Anything at all to support your stance?

This really isn't supposed to be a rules discussion, and I think this one is much less controversial than some of the other controversies.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does the second spoiler provide permission to be a separate unit? "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type" oh dear not only does this again make no mention of you counting as a separate unit but requires you to follow your unit type rules not break them.

FlingItNow - what does unit type [as shown in red in the quote above] refer to in the D Lord joined to wraiths example? The beast unit type of the wraiths or the jet pack unit type of the D Lord?

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does the second spoiler provide permission to be a separate unit? "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type" oh dear not only does this again make no mention of you counting as a separate unit but requires you to follow your unit type rules not break them.

FlingItNow - what does unit type [as shown in red in the quote above] refer to in the D Lord joined to wraiths example? The beast unit type of the wraiths or the jet pack unit type of the D Lord?

It refers to the jetpack unit type (which is a model property).

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Does the second spoiler provide permission to be a separate unit? "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type" oh dear not only does this again make no mention of you counting as a separate unit but requires you to follow your unit type rules not break them.

FlingItNow - what does unit type [as shown in red in the quote above] refer to in the D Lord joined to wraiths example? The beast unit type of the wraiths or the jet pack unit type of the D Lord?

It refers to the jetpack unit type (which is a model property).

So these rules . . . .


While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump
Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with
any unit they are in.

Can be shortened and read thusly in the case of the D Lord . . .

While the D Lord is part of a wraith unit, he counts as part of the wraith unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the movement rules for the Jet Pack unit type.

The blanket "counts as part of the wraith unit for all rule purposes" does not apply to the movement rules.

While the D Lord is part of a wraith unit, he counts as part of the wraith unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the movement rules for the Jet Pack unit type.

Correct and the Jetpack unit type requires you to be part of a jetpack unit to make a thrust move.

The blanket "counts as part of the wraith unit for all rule purposes" does not apply to the movement rules.

I'm going to want a quote that supports your claim that movement rules aren't rules.

Would something like this be better for harvest based hammer and anvil decurion?



Reclamation Legion

Overlord w/ Phase Shifter, Gauntlet of Fire & Solar Staff (Lychguard)

10x Lychguard w/ Warscythes
Night Scythe

5x Immortals w/ Gauss Blasters

10x Warriors
Ghost Ark

10x Warriors
Ghost Ark

10x Warriors
Ghost Ark

3x Tomb Blades w/ Shieldvanes, Nebuloscopes & Particle Beamers


Canoptek Harvest

1x Canoptek Scarabs w/ 3x Bases

1x Canoptek Spyder

3x Wraiths w/ Whip Coils


Canoptek Harvest

1x Canoptek Scarabs w/ 3x Bases

1x Canoptek Spyder

3x Wraiths w/ Whip Coils

 FlingitNow wrote:

While the D Lord is part of a wraith unit, he counts as part of the wraith unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the movement rules for the Jet Pack unit type.

Correct and the Jetpack unit type requires you to be part of a jetpack unit to make a thrust move.

The blanket "counts as part of the wraith unit for all rule purposes" does not apply to the movement rules.

I'm going to want a quote that supports your claim that movement rules aren't rules.

"though" restricts the blanket statement and means it does not apply for "rules for characters" which includes 'character movement rules'

 Lolcanoe wrote:

peteralmo wrote:
On the issue of the Spyder, I understand the debate, and until it is errata'd or ruled by my local TO, I'm going to keep them as such, it's just too easy to focus down one Spyder and lose the RP.

Look at the formation page and please tell me how many Spyders it says you can take. I'm not trying to take anything away from you. Necrons are my main army and I run a Harvest in all of my lists. Hell in 5th I ran 18 Wraiths (3 whip coils, 2 naked, 1 pistol for allocation purposes) and loved it. It does suck to lose your Spyder turn 1 before you've even gone, but come on.. we have a top tier codex already, no need to be TFG with it as well lol

It always gives unit size restriction in the restriction section and while my codex is not with me I'd bet money the restriction section says "none".

Night scythes aren't worth 130 to deliver lychguard since they can't assault after

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

While the D Lord is part of a wraith unit, he counts as part of the wraith unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the movement rules for the Jet Pack unit type.

Correct and the Jetpack unit type requires you to be part of a jetpack unit to make a thrust move.

The blanket "counts as part of the wraith unit for all rule purposes" does not apply to the movement rules.

I'm going to want a quote that supports your claim that movement rules aren't rules.

"though" restricts the blanket statement and means it does not apply for "rules for characters" which includes 'character movement rules'

No it doesn't it adds to the statement. "I am tall, though I am over weight" here weight has nothing to do with height. Being part of the unit has nothing to do with being a Character and being part of a unit does not change how your model interacts with character model rules. Is English your first language?

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

While the D Lord is part of a wraith unit, he counts as part of the wraith unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the movement rules for the Jet Pack unit type.

Correct and the Jetpack unit type requires you to be part of a jetpack unit to make a thrust move.

The blanket "counts as part of the wraith unit for all rule purposes" does not apply to the movement rules.

I'm going to want a quote that supports your claim that movement rules aren't rules.

"though" restricts the blanket statement and means it does not apply for "rules for characters" which includes 'character movement rules'

No it doesn't it adds to the statement. "I am tall, though I am over weight" here weight has nothing to do with height. Being part of the unit has nothing to do with being a Character and being part of a unit does not change how your model interacts with character model rules. Is English your first language?

No, you are wrong. "Though" indicates exception and/or qualification to the prior statement. I used to teach writing at the University of California so I have to ask if English is YOUR first language.

Example: You are expected to follow all of the American laws, though you will follow the Canadian driving laws.

This indicates that in the area of driving, Canadian law is in effect.



This also indicates that with regards to movement, the D Lord retains its separable unit status and can move as a Jet Pack unit per RAW.

Actually that indicates you'd have to follow both the American and Canadian Laws for driving. What you want it to say is:

"You are expected to follow all of the American laws, though when driving you instead follow the Canadian Laws"

Where instead creates the exception. There is no exception created by though unless the first sentence is incompatible with the second which creates an exception. There is no incompatability here (there maybe between US & Canadian driving rules you'd know more about that in which case you'd still want my form of the sentence just missing the instead).

 FlingitNow wrote:
Actually that indicates you'd have to follow both the American and Canadian Laws for driving. What you want it to say is:

"You are expected to follow all of the American laws, though when driving you instead follow the Canadian Laws"

Where instead creates the exception. There is no exception created by though unless the first sentence is incompatible with the second which creates an exception. There is no incompatability here (there maybe between US & Canadian driving rules you'd know more about that in which case you'd still want my form of the sentence just missing the instead).

Incorrect. You are simply failing at English. Did you graduate from high school? Or is English not your first language?

This is perfectly legit English . . .

"You are expected to follow all of the American laws, though when driving you follow Canadian law"

This means that insofar as we are dealing with driving, Canadian law is 100% in effect.

'Instead' is not required. 'Though' is a conjuction that applies a qualifier or restriction on what was stated prior. Basic English.