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Could the "jump infantry = infantry" crowd explain why the Storm Raven has a specific rule allowing jump infantry to embark if all infantry can anyway?

Or why we don't see jump equipped death company charging out of Land Raiders?

There may be a case for Praetorians deploying inside their transport, but jump infantry can never go through the embark process mid-game and it is wrong to use jump = infantry as a justification to do so.

This is absolutely hilarious.

After the whole Ghost ark fiasco (Capacity 10 Only warriors and IC can embark but warriors are 10+)
we also have praetorians can get a DT but cannot embark.

And they wanted me to pay for this codex because?

overlordweasel wrote:So were in the rules does it explicitly say jump cannot embark.

Wrong way round. Where does it say tJump units CAN embark?

overlordweasel wrote:To my knowledge it says only infantry can.

Yes, and in a permissive set that is what you need. Something telling you you can. Not something telling you you cannot.

overlordweasel wrote:Well under the rules for jump infantry it tells you to treat them as infantry and jump for rules purposes, they just have the bulky rule (so obvious rai they are meant to able to embark, or thered be no point to the bulky rule...)

Shucks, so those vehicles where jump infantry CAN embark, because they have a specific rule allowing this allowing it. Like Storm Ravens. So the bulky rule has a purpose. Oh, and with some super heavy vehicles that can transport any unit type.

overlordweasel wrote:Sorry maybe im just using my brain, but it seems pretty clear cut.

Insult noted, and ignored.

overlordweasel wrote:Jump/jet are just sub-types added to the main unit type of infantry, just with some modifiers to their rules. It doesnt vhange the fact they are still infantry. I hope no one tries to play like this, im pretty sure id just pick my models up and go home if someone tried to pull this crap in a game...seriously with all the actual broken rules in this game do the rule lawyers have to actively misinterpret the few working rules just to have something new to fight over?

Seriously, this is the best you can do in following the tenets?

The rules allow infantry to embark. They do not allow jump units to embark. A unit that is both Jump and Infantry only has one set of permissions, trouble is it needs two.

Agree with the above. Pretorians are jump infantry, which being a type of infantry, can potentially embark. However the night sythe is a special transport.

Units that start ebarked on a night sythe are not actually in the vehicle. They use the invasion Beamer to come out of reserves. This is illustrated by the fact that if he night sythe blows up without on loading passengers they don't take any hits just stay in ongoing reserves.

To the original post. The situation you describe is full of inconsistency. A night sythe does not allow your pretorians to assualt after arriving from reserve. Flyers cannot start on the board, so must arrive turn 2 or later. So if this person wants to run Pretorians in a night sythe he can but certainly cannot have it on the board turn 1, when he does arrive he will have to wait to assualt just like everyone else, so assualt turn 3 best case.

Also even a min squad of Pretorians is more than 70 points(28 pts per model if memory serves) at work so can't check my codex. A night sythe is 130. So the unit is more than 200 points, 270 if my math is good.

Also their weapons are s6 ap2 12" range with only 1 shot, hardly op. Again no codex so not checking. Even if s7 not a big deal, 5 shots...boo hoo

The point about joining the Pretorians with a night sythe is null. It is clear to me that they can indeed by embarked on a night sythe provided they don't exceed the modle capacity(as mentioned they are counted as bulky). However


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jump inf have the permissions to use both inf rules and jump rules. BRB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You keep saying they have to "embark" and I don't even see that hey have to due to the invasion Beam. So even if by some slowed(that is an insult) logic jump infantry cannot join in teansports(even though they clearly can as the rules for jump inf state that they have both jump and inf rules) these jump infantry could because it's not a regular transport, it's a night sythe. Which is now over costed and not worth bringing anyway.

Completely forgot about the invasion beams, anyone got the actuall rule?

The counter argument rule for some pro-Preatorian in Night Scythes:

Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise.

Simply, there is a stated restriction that you cannot embark with anything other than normal Infantry unless stated otherwise.

The counter argument rule for con-Preatorian in Night Scythes:

Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the Movement Phase

This informs us that the Movement Phase is the only time you may choose to Embark or Disembark units.

A unit can embark onto a vehicle by moving each model to within 2" of its Access Points in the Movement Phase

The rules define the term Embark or Embarking as a set action that is only done in the movement phase. This tells us we cannot Embark during deployment.

The fuzzy:

The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle's entry.

We are told that a Dedicated Transport may carry the unit that selected it, but does not say that they embark onto it, but are already being carried.
This fuzzy section of the rules that isn't defined effectively leaves a large enough hole for a Preatorian to be carried by their Dedicated Transport, but not be subjected to the embarking rule.

Edit:
I don't have time to write the whole rule, but to summarize, the Invasion Beams rule allows for units to disembark even when zooming and do not count as inside the Night Scythe when it is destroyed, instead being in Ongoing Reserves.

Epartalis- so jump pack assault marines can embark a land raider? That's your conclusion?

Jump infantry follow the rules for jump units and infantry units. I can carry an infantry unit - check. Can I carry a jump unit? Page and graph please.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Epartalis- so jump pack assault marines can embark a land raider? That's your conclusion?

Jump infantry follow the rules for jump units and infantry units. I can carry an infantry unit - check. Can I carry a jump unit? Page and graph please.

No, however, if they purchased a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport, the Land Raider may carry them from deployment due to embarking only being able to be done in the Movement Phase.

There is no restriction for being able to carry any unit type, only that you can only embark with basic Infantry without specific permission.

 HANZERtank wrote:
Completely forgot about the invasion beams, anyone got the actuall rule?

It's only fluff that supports the concept of the Invasion Beams allowing it making it pointless for this discussion. Well, that and the previous codex.

"Invasion Beams: A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a Night Scythe can disembark either before or after it has moved (including pivoting on the spot), even though it is Zooming, so long it has not moved more than 36" in that Movement phase. If a unit disembarks from a Night Scythe after it has moved 24" or more, models in the unit can only
fire Snap Shots until the start of their next turn. Units embarked on a Night Scythe ignore all effects of damage on passengers. If a Night Scythe is destroyed, the units embarked upon it suffer no damage or ill effects – instead they are immediately placed into Ongoing Reserves"

Essentially, Invasion Beams allow a unit to disembark from a Zooming Flyer as if it was Hovering up to a certain speed. They also protect the models from each receving a Railgun to the face when the Flyer dies. It does not affect Transport Capacity.

What I think what happened is that there was a mixup between the translation from previous codex to this one. Night Scythes used to be able to carry Jump Infantry and Jet Bikes. Someone asked, "What did Praetorians get?" and put Night Scythes as Dedicated Transports. Someone asked, "What is the capacity of a Night Scythe?" and put 15, but didn't ask if it had any special allowances. And so, we get Jump Infantry who have a Dedicated Transport that they cannot Embark upon.

An Errata should be written to allow the Night Scythe to Embark both Jump and Jet Pack Infantry, because this affects Destroyer Lords, too. But I guess, they are too busy writing up Age of Sigmar to worry about piddly little things like that.

As for the concept that you can deploy units in to transports without Embarking, let me point out how useless that would be since in order to get out of a Night Scythe, you either Disembark (which only an Embarked unit can do) or by having it destroyed and then go into Ongoing Reserves (which would defeat the purpose of putting them in the Night Scythe in the first place).

The intent is obvious plus nothing is ever embarked in a NS.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The intent is obvious plus nothing is ever embarked on a NS.

If nothing is ever embarked, than nothing can get off short of destruction of the Scythe.

Charistoph wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
Completely forgot about the invasion beams, anyone got the actuall rule?

As for the concept that you can deploy units in to transports without Embarking, let me point out how useless that would be since in order to get out of a Night Scythe, you either Disembark (which only an Embarked unit can do) or by having it destroyed and then go into Ongoing Reserves (which would defeat the purpose of putting them in the Night Scythe in the first place).

Embark (and Embarking) are defined terms in the rules, embarked is not. Semantics, certainly, but then again, they left the holes in there.

 Nilok wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
Completely forgot about the invasion beams, anyone got the actuall rule?

As for the concept that you can deploy units in to transports without Embarking, let me point out how useless that would be since in order to get out of a Night Scythe, you either Disembark (which only an Embarked unit can do) or by having it destroyed and then go into Ongoing Reserves (which would defeat the purpose of putting them in the Night Scythe in the first place).

Embark (and Embarking) are defined terms in the rules, embarked is not. Semantics, certainly, but then again, they left the holes in there.

Without an actual other definition changing it, "Embarked" would mean "having gone through the Embarking process" in standard English.

Or that's just a logical leap. The rules of the game lead to things that don't make sense. If a unit starts the game 'embarked' in a vehicle, did it ever perform the 'embark' action? No. It doesn't make sense but that's what the rules say.

Zimko wrote:
Or that's just a logical leap. The rules of the game lead to things that don't make sense. If a unit starts the game 'embarked' in a vehicle, did it ever perform the 'embark' action? No. It doesn't make sense but that's what the rules say.

That is not a logical leap, that is English's use of tenses. And as I said, we don't have any other defitinion to work with, so we use the rules we have.

So, either deploying in to a Transport uses a sufficient form of Embarking to achieve its results so you can be considered Embarked and can Disembark, but is limited to all the restrictions of Embarking; or it does not use any form of Embarking and then you can't get off without killing the Transport.

You choose.

So lets see.

Argument: Only Infantry units (not including Jump or Jet Pack) can embark onto a transport.

Counter-argument: The unit is not embarking, they are starting the game already on the transport.

Counter-counter-argument: Unless otherwise specified vehicles can only carry Infantry. Jump Infantry is not Infantry. They are Infantry and Jump. Night Scythe does not specify it can carry Jump. Ergo, only Infantry can start in the transport.

Charistoph wrote:

Zimko wrote:
Or that's just a logical leap. The rules of the game lead to things that don't make sense. If a unit starts the game 'embarked' in a vehicle, did it ever perform the 'embark' action? No. It doesn't make sense but that's what the rules say.

That is not a logical leap, that is English's use of tenses. And as I said, we don't have any other defitinion to work with, so we use the rules we have.

So, either deploying in to a Transport uses a sufficient form of Embarking to achieve its results so you can be considered Embarked and can Disembark, but is limited to all the restrictions of Embarking; or it does not use any form of Embarking and then you can't get off without killing the Transport.

You choose.

I choose option C: The Praetorians began the game 'inside' the transport as is allowed by the BRB. Thus they are embarked without ever having performed an embarkation move. (col_impact quoted and explained all this on the first page).

Models can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or
Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity.

Regardless of anything else, the bolded part above keeps this rule from being used to allow praetorians to deploy in the night scythe. As the night scythe has to start in reserves, it's never in your deployment zone during deployment.

Zimko wrote:

I choose option C: The Praetorians began the game 'inside' the transport as is allowed by the BRB. Thus they are embarked without ever having performed an embarkation move. (col_impact quoted and explained all this on the first page).

And where does it state that beginning the game inside a Transport is considered Embarked? Where does it state it bypasses the Embarking process when it does? Why is it possible to ignore the unit types allowed by Transport Capacity, but not the actual Transport numbers?

Charistoph wrote:

Zimko wrote:

I choose option C: The Praetorians began the game 'inside' the transport as is allowed by the BRB. Thus they are embarked without ever having performed an embarkation move. (col_impact quoted and explained all this on the first page).

And where does it state that beginning the game inside a Transport is considered Embarked? Where does it state it bypasses the Embarking process when it does? Why is it possible to ignore the unit types allowed by Transport Capacity, but not the actual Transport numbers?

Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the Movement Phase

Until you can prove you can embark outside the Movement Phase, it is possible to be embarked without embarking.

Really, this is proof that GW have failed on multiple levels of rules writing.

However, regardless of crazy RAW, that HIWPI is that Preatorians can be embarked on a Night Scythe.

Charistoph wrote:

And where does it state that beginning the game inside a Transport is considered Embarked?

It doesn't. What else could being 'inside' the transport mean though?

Charistoph wrote:

Where does it state it bypasses the Embarking process when it does?

When it told me I could put the unit inside the transport.

Charistoph wrote:

Why is it possible to ignore the unit types allowed by Transport Capacity, but not the actual Transport numbers?

I don't have a good answer for this. It seems to be a loophole with Dedicated Transports. I'll just quote Nilok above for this.

Nilok wrote:
The fuzzy:

The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle's entry.

We are told that a Dedicated Transport may carry the unit that selected it, but does not say that they embark onto it, but are already being carried.
This fuzzy section of the rules that isn't defined effectively leaves a large enough hole for a Preatorian to be carried by their Dedicated Transport, but not be subjected to the embarking rule.

Zimko wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

And where does it state that beginning the game inside a Transport is considered Embarked?

It doesn't. What else could being 'inside' the transport mean though?

Without the rule translating "in the Transport means Embarked", it doesn't officially mean Embarked. This is what I was talking about having a different definition from the normal.

Until the rule is found that says otherwise, "Embarked" means the past tense of Embark or Embarking, and just being in it does not officially qualify.

Charistoph wrote:

Where does it state it bypasses the Embarking process when it does?

When it told me I could put the unit inside the transport.

Incorrect. Without a defined answer to the first question, you do not have this answer defined for this follow up question. Indeed, these two questions were actually one in the same, though this one is more about the full process.

Charistoph wrote:

Why is it possible to ignore the unit types allowed by Transport Capacity, but not the actual Transport numbers?

I don't have a good answer for this. It seems to be a loophole with Dedicated Transports. I'll just quote Nilok above for this.

Nilok wrote:
The fuzzy:

The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle's entry.

We are told that a Dedicated Transport may carry the unit that selected it, but does not say that they embark onto it, but are already being carried.
This fuzzy section of the rules that isn't defined effectively leaves a large enough hole for a Preatorian to be carried by their Dedicated Transport, but not be subjected to the embarking rule.

It still does not actually answer the Transport Capacity question, nor does it address the concept of actually translating "in a Transport" to being Embarked.

If you want to bypass the Embarking and Transport Capacity rules to get a unit in a Transport, fine, I won't stop you, but I will never consider it Embarked, so expect an issue getting it out through any method other than Explodes or Crash and Burn.

Charistoph wrote:


If you want to bypass the Embarking and Transport Capacity rules to get a unit in a Transport, fine, I won't stop you, but I will never consider it Embarked, so expect an issue getting it out through any method other than Explodes or Crash and Burn.

The rules bypass the embarking step for all units. Any unit that starts the game embarked on a transport has gotten there without actually going through embarking since embarking is a process that only happens in movement.

If you want to argues that the praetorians are not considered embarked then you are logically arguing that no unit in the game is considered embarked.

The praetorians are simply following the rules that all units who would start the game in their dedicated transport have to follow.

If you feel otherwise find rules for embarking that the player uses during deployment.


The praetorians have permission to be on their dedicated transport here

col_impact wrote:
The praetorians have permission to be on their dedicated transport here

Spoiler:

The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can
only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that
have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly
Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as
explained in the vehicle’s entry.

I'm not seeing any permission in the quoted rule. Only a restriction on other units being carried at deployment.

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The praetorians have permission to be on their dedicated transport here

Spoiler:

The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can
only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that
have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly
Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as
explained in the vehicle’s entry.

I'm not seeing any permission in the quoted rule. Only a restriction on other units being carried at deployment.

Per English, that rule grants broad permission ("the only limitation") for a dedicated transport to carry the unit it was selected with. If you try to limit the praetorians from being carried by their dedicated transport then you have broken the rule by introducing something beyond "the only limitation" and the rule is clear that there is just the one limitation that needs to be met.

How about this rule then:

A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle’s Transport Capacity.

So Praetorians are Jump Infantry. Can Infantry be in a transport? Yes so long as they don't exceed the maximum number of models. Can Jump units be in a transport? No, unless the transport specifically allows it.

Since Praetorians have two unit types and one of those is forbidden from being carried by Night Scythes then they cannot be carried.

 Happyjew wrote:
How about this rule then:

A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle’s Transport Capacity.

So Praetorians are Jump Infantry. Can Infantry be in a transport? Yes so long as they don't exceed the maximum number of models. Can Jump units be in a transport? No, unless the transport specifically allows it.

Since Praetorians have two unit types and one of those is forbidden from being carried by Night Scythes then they cannot be carried.

Praetorians are not forbidden from being on their dedicated transport. You are trying to apply a limitation beyond the "only limitation" and are breaking the rules. They are restricted from embarking onto a transport during movement phases when embarking is something that a unit actually has permission to do.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
If you want to bypass the Embarking and Transport Capacity rules to get a unit in a Transport, fine, I won't stop you, but I will never consider it Embarked, so expect an issue getting it out through any method other than Explodes or Crash and Burn.

The rules bypass the embarking step for all units. Any unit that starts the game embarked on a transport has gotten there without actually going through embarking since embarking is a process that only happens in movement.

That isn't what I said. You are saying they are in the transport, but you have yet to point out that this means they are Embarked. Or in other words, Embarked has not been replaced with any other definition, so may only be taken to be a past tense form of Embark. This is standard English.

col_impact wrote:
If you want to argues that the praetorians are not considered embarked then you are logically arguing that no unit in the game is considered embarked.

I am not, you are. You are stating that a unit starts in a transport without Embarking. And per the rules of English which have as yet to be countered, one cannot be Embarked without having gone through Embarking at some point previous.

col_impact wrote:
The praetorians have permission to be on their dedicated transport here

Spoiler:

The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle’s entry.

A restriction does not mean permission when a general permission is already in play. There already exists general permission for a unit to start in a transport. By stating only one unit may be aboard at a certain time, places a restriction on that general permission.

However, none of this states that a unit being carried by the Transport is considered Embarked.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If you want to argues that the praetorians are not considered embarked then you are logically arguing that no unit in the game is considered embarked.

I am not, you are. You are stating that a unit starts in a transport without Embarking. And per the rules of English which have as yet to be countered, one cannot be Embarked without having gone through Embarking at some point previous.

You need to point to a rule in the BRB which defines embarking during employment, and you cannot. Pointing vaguely to "some point previous" is inventing rules or otherwise house-ruling. Per strict RAW the embarking process never happens and it is skipped in game terms. We lack rules for resolving embarking during deployment.

You're taking a rule out of context, to turn a restriction into a permission

It can only carry infantry unless told otherwise. That's it.