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nosferatu1001 wrote: You're taking a rule out of context, to turn a restriction into a permission
It can only carry infantry unless told otherwise. That's it.
The rules say otherwise.
Spoiler:
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it).
A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle’s Transport Capacity.
So Praetorians are Jump Infantry. Can Infantry be in a transport? Yes so long as they don't exceed the maximum number of models. Can Jump units be in a transport? No, unless the transport specifically allows it.
Since Praetorians have two unit types and one of those is forbidden from being carried by Night Scythes then they cannot be carried.
Praetorians are not forbidden from being on their dedicated transport. You are trying to apply a limitation beyond the "only limitation" and are breaking the rules. They are restricted from embarking onto a transport during movement phases when embarking is something that a unit actually has permission to do.
And the rule I quoted says that vehicles can only carry Infantry. So if you put Praetorians into a transport (dedicated or otherwise) that does not specify Jump units can be carried, then you have broken a rule.
nosferatu1001 wrote: You're taking a rule out of context, to turn a restriction into a permission
It can only carry infantry unless told otherwise. That's it.
The rules say otherwise.
Spoiler:
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it).
So I can take a Command Squad, give them all Bikes, and then start them inside their Razorback?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/02 23:37:50
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle’s Transport Capacity.
So Praetorians are Jump Infantry. Can Infantry be in a transport? Yes so long as they don't exceed the maximum number of models. Can Jump units be in a transport? No, unless the transport specifically allows it.
Since Praetorians have two unit types and one of those is forbidden from being carried by Night Scythes then they cannot be carried.
Praetorians are not forbidden from being on their dedicated transport. You are trying to apply a limitation beyond the "only limitation" and are breaking the rules. They are restricted from embarking onto a transport during movement phases when embarking is something that a unit actually has permission to do.
And the rule I quoted says that vehicles can only carry Infantry. So if you put Praetorians into a transport (dedicated or otherwise) that does not specify Jump units can be carried, then you have broken a rule.
Wrong. I have applied this rule.
Spoiler:
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it).
You are wrongfully trying to apply a limitation beyond "the only limitation"
A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle’s Transport Capacity.
So Praetorians are Jump Infantry. Can Infantry be in a transport? Yes so long as they don't exceed the maximum number of models. Can Jump units be in a transport? No, unless the transport specifically allows it.
Since Praetorians have two unit types and one of those is forbidden from being carried by Night Scythes then they cannot be carried.
Praetorians are not forbidden from being on their dedicated transport. You are trying to apply a limitation beyond the "only limitation" and are breaking the rules. They are restricted from embarking onto a transport during movement phases when embarking is something that a unit actually has permission to do.
And the rule I quoted says that vehicles can only carry Infantry. So if you put Praetorians into a transport (dedicated or otherwise) that does not specify Jump units can be carried, then you have broken a rule.
Wrong. I have applied this rule.
Spoiler:
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it).
You are wrongfully trying to apply a limitation beyond "the only limitation"
So I can take a 5 man Command Squad, give them all bikes, and put them in their Dedicated Razorback?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle’s Transport Capacity.
So Praetorians are Jump Infantry. Can Infantry be in a transport? Yes so long as they don't exceed the maximum number of models. Can Jump units be in a transport? No, unless the transport specifically allows it.
Since Praetorians have two unit types and one of those is forbidden from being carried by Night Scythes then they cannot be carried.
Praetorians are not forbidden from being on their dedicated transport. You are trying to apply a limitation beyond the "only limitation" and are breaking the rules. They are restricted from embarking onto a transport during movement phases when embarking is something that a unit actually has permission to do.
And the rule I quoted says that vehicles can only carry Infantry. So if you put Praetorians into a transport (dedicated or otherwise) that does not specify Jump units can be carried, then you have broken a rule.
Wrong. I have applied this rule.
Spoiler:
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it).
You are wrongfully trying to apply a limitation beyond "the only limitation"
So I can take a 5 man Command Squad, give them all bikes, and put them in their Dedicated Razorback?
The rules say that vehicles can only carry infantry.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
Happyjew wrote: The rules say that vehicles can only carry infantry.
Praetorians are infantry. They are also jump. Their unit type is "jump infantry"
Spoiler:
Jump units therefore share two
sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry
would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
The rules also say this.
Spoiler:
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it).
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/07/02 23:57:32
nosferatu1001 wrote: Yes, so prove that jump units may be carried. Or can i assault having run, the turn I disembark from a land raider?
Again, your insistence on taking a rule out of context is not helpful to your arguments credibility.
I am not taking any rule out of context. Here is the full rule
Spoiler:
Dedicated Transports
Sometimes a unit entry will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be
selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a
slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the
unit they were bought for all other rules purposes.
For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (troops)
counts as a unit of troops, but one bought for a unit of Space Marine
Sternguard Veteran Squad (elites) counts as elites.
Other vehicles may also have a Transport Capacity, but they are chosen
separately as normal, have a role and occupy a force organisation chart slot of
their own.
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can
only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that
have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly
Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as
explained in the vehicle’s entry.
My argument strictly adheres to the rules and in their full context. The problem with your argument is that you are not adhering to the rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/03 00:11:01
nosferatu1001 wrote: Yes, so prove that jump units may be carried. Or can i assault having run, the turn I disembark from a land raider?
Again, your insistence on taking a rule out of context is not helpful to your arguments credibility.
I am not taking any rule out of context. Here is the full rule
Spoiler:
Dedicated Transports
Sometimes a unit entry will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be
selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a
slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the
unit they were bought for all other rules purposes.
For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (troops)
counts as a unit of troops, but one bought for a unit of Space Marine
Sternguard Veteran Squad (elites) counts as elites.
Other vehicles may also have a Transport Capacity, but they are chosen
separately as normal, have a role and occupy a force organisation chart slot of
their own.
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can
only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that
have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly
Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as
explained in the vehicle’s entry.
My argument strictly adheres to the rules and in their full context. The problem with your argument is that you are not adhering to the rules.
Then why are you breaking the rule that vehicles can only carry Infantry?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
col_impact wrote: If you want to argues that the praetorians are not considered embarked then you are logically arguing that no unit in the game is considered embarked.
I am not, you are. You are stating that a unit starts in a transport without Embarking. And per the rules of English which have as yet to be countered, one cannot be Embarked without having gone through Embarking at some point previous.
You need to point to a rule in the BRB which defines embarking during employment, and you cannot. Pointing vaguely to "some point previous" is inventing rules or otherwise house-ruling. Per strict RAW the embarking process never happens and it is skipped in game terms. We lack rules for resolving embarking during deployment.
I haven't really said anything about it, yet. What I have said is that you are saying you do not need to Embark the units during deployment. At which point, if you do not Embark the units, they cannot be Embarked due to the rules of English and no other redefinition in the rulebook.
If they are not Embarked, they cannot get out through the Disembark process. Which means the only way they can get out of the Vehicle is if it Explodes! or Crashes and Burns! Any other method is Disembarking, which again, requires the unit to be Embarked to do so. Even Wrecked! requires the unit to Disembark.
But being carried by a Transport or deployed or placed in a Transport isn't Embarked any more than deploying a unit in to a Transport is Embarking.
But that's only if you really want to get picky about wording.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Yes, so prove that jump units may be carried. Or can i assault having run, the turn I disembark from a land raider?
Again, your insistence on taking a rule out of context is not helpful to your arguments credibility.
I am not taking any rule out of context. Here is the full rule
Spoiler:
Dedicated Transports
Sometimes a unit entry will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be
selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a
slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the
unit they were bought for all other rules purposes.
For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (troops)
counts as a unit of troops, but one bought for a unit of Space Marine
Sternguard Veteran Squad (elites) counts as elites.
Other vehicles may also have a Transport Capacity, but they are chosen
separately as normal, have a role and occupy a force organisation chart slot of
their own.
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can
only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that
have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly
Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as
explained in the vehicle’s entry.
My argument strictly adheres to the rules and in their full context. The problem with your argument is that you are not adhering to the rules.
Then why are you breaking the rule that vehicles can only carry Infantry?
I would appreciate it if you would please post the rule you are referencing. Currently the only rule restricting Jump and Jet Pack Infantry is embarking: getting into the transport in the movement phase.
Permission for all (Normal, Jump, and Jet Pack) Infantry to be in transports and Restricting all other unit types:
Each Transport vehicle has a maximum passenger capacity that can never be exceeded. A transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. The entire unit must be embarked on the Transport if any part of it is - a unit cannot be partially embarked or be spread across multiple Transports.
This informs us that no units other than Infantry, of all types, may be embarked in a Transport and also defines "embarked" as being inside the transport, instead of having performed an embark action in the movement phase. If it was the other way, any unit that stated in a vehicle at the start of the game would be unable to disembark. It is also stated below for Reserves deployment, that they are deployed embarked.
I believe the rule you are misremembering is the next paragraph:
Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise.
This rule only restricts normal Infantry to embarking, it does not restrict Jump and Jet Pack Infantry from being already embarked in a transport prior to the start of the game.
It then goes on to define what embark/embarking is:
Models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the Movement phase. They cannot voluntarily embark and disembark in the same turn. However, they can embarked and them be forced to disembark if their Transport is destroyed.
This tells us the embarking is only done in the movement phase.
Finally, the permission to have units, including Jump and Jet Pack infantry in their Dedicated Transport without embarking on the table via deployment:
Models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity.
And the permission for reserves:
Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserves are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserves, in which case they will arrive together.
This final permission show that the unit is already embarked on the vehicle and not subject to the embark/embarking rule, which as I already showed, only happens in the movement phase. This also shows that all units that are deployed in transports, but have not performed an embarking in the movement phase, still count as embarked.
This shows a clear line of permission to have Jump or Jet Pack Infantry inside a transport, they simply cannot embark into it, which cannot be done. This also prevents the Bike country argument as they are not Infantry in any regard.
Final Thoughts:
After reviewing all of the rules again, I have found that not only is there a clear line of permission to have units embarked on their Dedicated Transport for Jump or Jet Pack Infantry, but the rules for deployment also permit for vehicles to have such Jump and Jet Pack Infantry embarked at the start of the game without it being a Dedicated Transport, so long as the bulky or very bulky units can fit within the Transport Capacity and specific restrictions.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/07/03 07:22:52
Ah, so your issue is that you believe "infantry" actually says "Infantry of all types", despite the rules saying nothing of the kind
Jump infantry is a specific type of Jump unit. Same as jump cavalry or jump MC would be specific types of Jump units
You have Jump and Infantry. You have permission to carry infantry, please show how you have permission to carry units that are also Jump. Page and graph. Note: the rule starting "A transport can..." does NOT provide this permission.
If we are playing the uses the rules for infantry card, walkers use the rules for infantry in the movement phase. If so walkers can embark into a vehicle as they follow the rules for infantry at that point. Then they can be inside as we are saying anything can be in a transport as long as it has a way to get inside.
I'd treat it as Praetorians cannont deploy inside the vehicle similar to how Necron warrior squads with more than 10 models can't take their own transport.
If you look at entries like for a drop pod, they even refer to units inside the vehicle at the start of the game as being "embarked upon them".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/03 14:19:32
Dozer Blades wrote: The only dedicated transport for a walker I can think of off the top of my head is a drop pod.
The Ghost Arc's transport capacity has nothing to do with this discussion.
It does, as its another case of a dedicated transport where "the only limtation", as out-of-context-quoted by col_impact, isnt truly the only limitation
Its almost like the whole set of rules has to be read together, to show it is a restriction and not permission.
I would appreciate it if you would please post the rule you are referencing. Currently the only rule restricting Jump and Jet Pack Infantry is embarking: getting into the transport in the movement phase.
Permission for all (Normal, Jump, and Jet Pack) Infantry to be in transports and Restricting all other unit types:
Each Transport vehicle has a maximum passenger capacity that can never be exceeded. A transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity. The entire unit must be embarked on the Transport if any part of it is - a unit cannot be partially embarked or be spread across multiple Transports.
This informs us that no units other than Infantry, of all types, may be embarked in a Transport and also defines "embarked" as being inside the transport, instead of having performed an embark action in the movement phase. If it was the other way, any unit that stated in a vehicle at the start of the game would be unable to disembark. It is also stated below for Reserves deployment, that they are deployed embarked.
No, it does not define Embarked anything other than the normal having been through Embarking. It says that an Infantry unit may be CARRIED, not Embarked.
It then says that an entire unit must Embark together. So, I guess that means I can have the Transport partially Carry a unit since that is no more forbidden than carrying a unit that cannot Embark.
Nilok wrote: I believe the rule you are misremembering is the next paragraph:
Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise.
This rule only restricts normal Infantry to embarking, it does not restrict Jump and Jet Pack Infantry from being already embarked in a transport prior to the start of the game.
Standard English rules state otherwise. Embarked means to have been through the Embarking process.
The only thing you've done is define a difference between "Carry"/"Be Deployed in to" and Embark. And then you want to go back and say that Embark is equal to "Carry" or "Be Deployed in to". It doesn't work that way.
Nilok wrote: Finally, the permission to have units, including Jump and Jet Pack infantry in their Dedicated Transport without embarking on the table via deployment:
Models can be deployed 'inside' buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity.
Too bad that being "deployed inside" a Transport doesn't count as Embarking so the unit can then Disembark later on.
Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserves are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserves, in which case they will arrive together.
This final permission show that the unit is already embarked on the vehicle and not subject to the embark/embarking rule, which as I already showed, only happens in the movement phase. This also shows that all units that are deployed in transports, but have not performed an embarking in the movement phase, still count as embarked.
Standard English rules state otherwise. Being Embarked means you have at one point gone through the Embarking process. So, you're still stuck there.
Nilok wrote: Final Thoughts:
After reviewing all of the rules again, I have found that not only is there a clear line of permission to have units embarked on their Dedicated Transport for Jump or Jet Pack Infantry, but the rules for deployment also permit for vehicles to have such Jump and Jet Pack Infantry embarked at the start of the game without it being a Dedicated Transport, so long as the bulky or very bulky units can fit within the Transport Capacity and specific restrictions.
Dedicated Transports have no more permission to Embark units than any other Transports. They are restricted from carrying any other unit when deploying, but gain benefits by doing so, like being able to Infiltrate, Scout, and Outflank if their purchasing unit has the capacity to do so on their own.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Ah, so your issue is that you believe "infantry" actually says "Infantry of all types", despite the rules saying nothing of the kind
Jump infantry is a specific type of Jump unit. Same as jump cavalry or jump MC would be specific types of Jump units
You have Jump and Infantry. You have permission to carry infantry, please show how you have permission to carry units that are also Jump. Page and graph. Note: the rule starting "A transport can..." does NOT provide this permission.
Jump Units (underlined for clarity):
Unlike most other unit type categories, 'Jump' is not a classification in and of itself, Instead, you'll find it occurs before another category - commonly Infantry, sometimes Monstrous Creatures and perhaps, rarely, other things. Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
Jet Pack Units:
As with Jump units, 'Jet Pack' is not a classification in and of itself.
As stated by the rules, there is no such thing as a pure 'Jump' unit, instead, 'Jump' is a modifier to its base unit type. In this case Infantry, which is shares all rules and permissions granted to base Infantry with exceptions.
The critical thing is that there is a blanket permission under Transport Capacity for Infantry with no restrictions. However, under the embarking rule, there is a restriction for embarking models must be Infantry, but also excludes Jump and Jet Pack Infantry, showing that any rule affecting Infantry also affect Jump and Jet Pack Infantry unless a specific exception is stated.
If this restriction was stated in the Transport Capacity, or placing unit in Transports during deployment counted as embarking, then Jump and Jet Pack units could not start deployed inside a Transport.
HANZERtank wrote: If we are playing the uses the rules for infantry card, walkers use the rules for infantry in the movement phase. If so walkers can embark into a vehicle as they follow the rules for infantry at that point. Then they can be inside as we are saying anything can be in a transport as long as it has a way to get inside.
Using the rules for infantry is not the same as having permission to use the rule set, or be counted as Infantry. There is a difference between "Jump Infantry would, for example, follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry" and "Walkers move using the movement rules for Infantry."
As you can see, there is no permission to count Walkers as Infantry.
Nilok wrote: The critical thing is that there is a blanket permission under Transport Capacity for Infantry with no restrictions. However, under the embarking rule, there is a restriction for embarking models must be Infantry, but also excludes Jump and Jet Pack Infantry, showing that any rule affecting Infantry also affect Jump and Jet Pack Infantry unless a specific exception is stated.
Incorrect. The 'Transport Capacity' section of the rules is where it says "... Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry)..." The Embarking rules are a few sections further down in the rules in the 'Embarking and Disembarking' section.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Charistoph, your argument seems to be highly based on "standard English" which has (sadly) little to do with the rule set of 40k.
Perhaps you could rewrite it to not rely on that so much.
Other than that, it seem your only argument is that you cannot be Embarked without Embarking, which would make sense if you were trying to use rule world example, but in the context of the rules, that is not a requirement. If it was, it would say for instance "Embarking Units count as Embarked".
If that is resolved, then you rest of your concerns also get resolved.
Nilok wrote: The critical thing is that there is a blanket permission under Transport Capacity for Infantry with no restrictions. However, under the embarking rule, there is a restriction for embarking models must be Infantry, but also excludes Jump and Jet Pack Infantry, showing that any rule affecting Infantry also affect Jump and Jet Pack Infantry unless a specific exception is stated.
Incorrect. The 'Transport Capacity' section of the rules is where it says "... Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry)..." The Embarking rules are a few sections further down in the rules in the 'Embarking and Disembarking' section.
That is a clear distinction indeed. This shows, as you say, that Jump and Jet Pack infantry cannot embark. However, once again, read the bold text you find that unrelated to actually embarking, the only requirement is to be "a single Infantry unit" without restriction to be inside a Transport. If you can show that this unrestricted instance of Infantry is meant to be identical as the embark entry below it, "Only Infantry modes can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless otherwise specially stated otherwise", then my argument falls flat.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/07/03 16:19:46
I don't think I understand your argument why praetorians should be able to get in the night scythe.
If your argument is that the rules allow praetorians on the night scythe, then where are they specifically stated to be able to break the restriction on jump and jet pack infantry not being allowed on transports? The rule on page 80 explicitly excludes jump and jet pack infantry unless given a specific exception in the rules such as a drop pod saying you can bring a dreadnought.
If your argument is that embarking and being deployed on are different, than why do the rules for other transports like drop pods mention units that start the game inside of them as being embarked upon them? They don't appear to be differentiating between deploying in something or embarking upon it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/03 16:18:26
lessthanjeff wrote: I don't think I understand your argument why praetorians should be able to get in the night scythe.
If your argument is that the rules allow praetorians on the night scythe, then where are they specifically stated to be able to break the restriction on jump and jet pack infantry not being allowed on transports? The rule on page 80 explicitly excludes jump and jet pack infantry unless given a specific exception in the rules such as a drop pod saying you can bring a dreadnought.
If your argument is that embarking and being deployed on are different, than why do the rules for other transports like drop pods mention units that start the game inside of them as being embarked upon them? They don't appear to be differentiating between deploying in something or embarking upon it.
Because being embarked does not carry any restrictions. The second paragraph that covers the actual act of embarking is the restriction for Jump and Jet Pack infantry given. Embark and embarking is then later defined as something that can only be done in the Movement Phase. Finally, units that start deployed or embarked in Transports prior to the start of the game do not go through the embarking process.
This is honesty a case of Games Workshop stupidly cutting rules from 7th edition and redefining terms as rules. If they did not foolishly define "embark" later on as an action that can only be done in the Movement Phase and instead called it something like "Load Up", it such a blatant hole would not form.
Regardless, I don't think Jump or Jet Pack Infantry should be deployed inside of transport at the start of the game save for the Preatorians and their Dedicated Transport which had a rule omitted from the previous codex, in my opinion, erroneously.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/03 16:29:51
That's why I'm saying look at the entry for a drop pod. It refers to units that began the game on the transport as embarked upon it. If embarking only happens in the movement phase as you're claiming, how did they embark upon it before the game began? I don't think there is a distinction between embarking on and being deployed on. If there is, games workshop isn't showing that distinction in their rule writing.
The rules for transports limit the act of embarking not being embarked. That is the difference. If you have to adhere to the tenets of embarking then you can never start embarked as the unit can only embark in the movement phase. This is a restriction and if you are stating you need specific override for jump infantry then you need one for embarking out side of the movement phase. You either need to follow all the rules or none per the blanket over ride of the only restriction clause under dedicated transports rules.
ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
So when the rules say "... Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry)..." we're left with two options:
1.) The author was using the real world definition of 'embark' or...
2.) GW for some unfathomable reason decided to put a restriction on embarking in the 'Transport Capacity' section of the rules instead of in the 'Embarking and Disembarking' section that they hadn't even covered yet.
I know which makes more sense to me. Like Sigmund Freud said sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and with GW sometimes a word is just a word and not some allusion to a rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/03 16:59:31
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Nilok, I was at work all day so was unable to respond to your earlier post.
The rule I was referring to is the one you quoted, including the bold section - transports can only carry Infantry.
This means if you are any of the following {Jump. Jet Pack, Artillery, Bike, Jetbike, Eldar Jetbike, Jet Pack, Monstrous Creature, Cavalry, Flying Monstrous Creature, Gargantuan Creature, Vehicle, Super-heavy Vehicle, Flying Gargantuan Creature} you need specific permission to be carried by a transport.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
