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 Grey Templar wrote:
I believe they all got exterminated on Istvaan III as far as canon is concerned, but nothing says there couldn't have been a group that survived in a bunker somewhere that escaped.

We already know that Loken survived, but I think he is the only known survivor of Isstvan III.

Once again remember that a large number of loyal Iron Warriors survived Paramar and managed to hide in the caves once the battle was lost. No word that I am aware of them or their commander. Too silly to think the Silver skulls aren't IW loyalists. They have the exact same colors and symbol just without the hazard stripes.

I am sure their geneseed was looked over with a fine toothed comb for signs of taint. That and/or at the urging of loyalist primarchs or the mechanicum who owed the loyalists a favor renamed their geneseed something else on the bottles. When you are a megalithic organization that just finished a major civil war, some things are likely easy to sweep under the rug or swapped.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I believe they all got exterminated on Istvaan III as far as canon is concerned, but nothing says there couldn't have been a group that survived in a bunker somewhere that escaped.

As mentioned above, Crysus Morturg of the Death Guard and Caleb Decima of the Mechanicum are loyalists that survived. Morturg's memoirs are how the Imperium got such a good account of what happened at Isstvaan III.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Yes, more than Dantioch escaped from the Schandehold. But from what's been said here, it would seem that an entire Legion was built form Dantiochs Gene-seed.

Chapter, not Legion. And it wasn't built from just Dantioch's gene seed. It was built from Dantioch and the loyalist iron warriors that were with him. You keep phrasing this as if an entire chapter was built from just one person, which is clearly not (hypothetically) the case here since Dantioch's GROUP consists of a LOT more than just one person. The general theory and implication are that Dantioch and his loyalist legionairres with him BECAME the silver skulls, not BUILD the silver skulls from their gene-seed (IE, they became the first Silver Skulls, though obviously any new Silver Skulls would be created from it)

 Pilau Rice wrote:

If you are declared Excommunicate Traitoris it's not something you can get away from and covering it up could lead to dire consequences. The whole of the traitor Legions were stamped this way.

Source? If the traitor legions as a whole were stamped that way and included even the loyalists, why is Garro known in Imperial history as the hero of Isstvaan? If the Excommunicate Traitoris applied to him just for being in a traitor legion, he wouldn't be known in Imperial history at all, would he? He'd have been purged from the record. Why has Forge World's book not even mentioned that they'd have to go into hiding to avoid Imperial Retribution? The ONLY reason mentioned by the scholar to hide one's traitor primarch is for reasons of HONOR. If it was ILLEGAL to have a traitor primarch, don't you think he would have mentioned that as well?

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I just don't see it as something that they would do. If the Geneseed was flawed, even in the ones that stayed loyal. Who's to say that a new founding using the same wouldn't go the way of their traitor brothers. Perhaps it was the strength of the individuals character that prevented them from falling. I just see it as a risk that the Imperium wouldn't take. Maybe though after such a period of time they want to try new things out. But why lock the Traitor Gene seed away on Terra in a stasis vault if you're just going to use it anyway? The batches kept on Terra hadn't been used to create other Astartes yet.

It's canon/established that it's illegal to use the traitor gene seed to establish new chapters. Of this, I have no disagreement. What I disagree with is that the Imperium wouldn't allow any current existing loyalists from traitor legions to continue on to new chapters. Again, if such a thing were completely disallowed and illegal, the Imperial Scholar would have brought it up while he was pondering on the Death Eagles being Emperor Children loyalists.

Even before then, for the Sons of Antaeus chapter (which, in-universe, some people think are from Death Guard gene seed), "detractors" would only accuse them of being from the Death Guard only as an insult, and it's not mentioned anywhere that any one ever thought to accuse them of Heresy for that.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I wouldn't tell someone that they can't do it. But it doesn't mean that I am not going to give reasons for why I don't think it is possible. This is a place for discussion after all.

The tone of your post was clearly atempting to discourage the OP from doing something just because you didn't think it was possible, even though we already have someone in-universe who believes that it is. Perhaps you aren't trying to directly force the OP to do something, but I think it's very important to point out here that Forge World (and, assuming the OP is accepting Forge World as "canon", canon fluff itself) is clearly giving the OP the okay, even if you personally are against the idea. You give all your theories that its impossible as if they are plausible, which is fine, but Forge World (dunno about Games Workshop) themselves are clearly screaming that the possibility is indeed quite there.

I might add that Magnus sent the K-sons fleet away from Prospero before the Wolves came. Other than the 4th Fellowship squad that returned to investigate Prospero we have no idea what happened to that fleet and the personnel aboard. They could have gone Traitor or they might have gone underground; if they remained loyal there's a fair chance they would have reestablished contact with the Imperium (cautiously).

To me it seems likely that the K-son survivors might have been inducted into the nascent Grey Knights. It would make some sense to hand all loyalists from Traitor Legions over to Garro. This influx of K-son geneseed might also explain the requirement for GKs to be psykers.

Alternatively they might have been folded into another Chapter (Ultramarine expansion?) or hidden as a 'Second Founding' chapter with an Unknown Primarch.

It's all a lot of speculation of course. Doubtless the outcome for loyalists from various Traitor Legions/Chapters depended a lot on circumstances, the character and deportment of the Loyalists, etc. etc.

My two cents.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that the Silver Skulls being of Iron Warrior geneseed or at least was initially formed with the surviving Loyalist Iron Warriors is a strong possibility.

After all, didn't Guilliman and his Ultramarines get along swimmingly with the Iron Warriors prior to Perturabo being found? And wasn't it that after the Decimation of the Iron Warriors at Perturabo's command, Guilliman was the most vocal about how morally wrong Perturabo's course of action? This being partially due to Guilliman both having had respect for the Iron Warriors as well as being personally on good terms with several commanding officers of the Iron Warrior Legion several of whom were killed in the decimation.

Considering also everything that Dantioch did for the Imperium and Guilliman, would it really be that hard to believe that Guilliman would go out of his way to reward especially Dantioch with a chapter of his own?

TiamatRoar wrote:

Chapter, not Legion. And it wasn't built from just Dantioch's gene seed. It was built from Dantioch and the loyalist iron warriors that were with him. You keep phrasing this as if an entire chapter was built from just one person, which is clearly not (hypothetically) the case here since Dantioch's GROUP consists of a LOT more than just one person. The general theory and implication are that Dantioch and his loyalist legionairres with him BECAME the silver skulls, not BUILD the silver skulls from their gene-seed (IE, they became the first Silver Skulls, though obviously any new Silver Skulls would be created from it)

Slip of the keyboard and that's not what I have said. I said from reading here it would seem that a chapter was built from Dantiochs geneseed alone. Which wouldn't be the case like you say. Going through the posts this is a reading fail on my behalf as Dantioch and the other Iron Warriors were mentioned, so I apologies there. But we have no idea at all what happens to Dantioch, he could be dead in the next book. It could be that the Silver Skulls were created in honour of Dantioch and the Iron Warriors that assisted the defence the Palace. We just don't know. Hopefully, we find out at the end of the Heresy. I hope not another 20 odd books. Their Geneseed would eventually have to be used to create new Astartes, otherwise the chapter would just die out.

TiamatRoar wrote:

Source? If the traitor legions as a whole were stamped that way and included even the loyalists, why is Garro known in Imperial history as the hero of Isstvaan? If the Excommunicate Traitoris applied to him just for being in a traitor legion, he wouldn't be known in Imperial history at all, would he? He'd have been purged from the record. Why has Forge World's book not even mentioned that they'd have to go into hiding to avoid Imperial Retribution? The ONLY reason mentioned by the scholar to hide one's traitor primarch is for reasons of HONOR. If it was ILLEGAL to have a traitor primarch, don't you think he would have mentioned that as well?

Garro is a different case as are the Marines Errant. They have no Legion and an exemption was made for them by Malcador. The others, I don't believe had the same applied to them. They were still Iron Warriors. As far as we know the other 60 or so Death Guard that were with Garro on the Eisenstien are still on Luna. If they weren't tarnished with the same brush as their traitor brothers, why are they still there?

I don't have the source on Excommunicate Traitoris to hand, but it has to have some meaning. Although there is an instance where the Doom Legion had four companies that were not sent on the Abyssal Crusade and were deemed as being loyal to the Emperor where the others that did take part in it were declared to be traitors. So, I guess it is possible maybe. But then they weren't Iron Warriors.

TiamatRoar wrote:

It's canon/established that it's illegal to use the traitor gene seed to establish new chapters. Of this, I have no disagreement. What I disagree with is that the Imperium wouldn't allow any current existing loyalists from traitor legions to continue on to new chapters. Again, if such a thing were completely disallowed and illegal, the Imperial Scholar would have brought it up while he was pondering on the Death Eagles being Emperor Children loyalists.

Why if he is just musing in his own notes?

TiamatRoar wrote:

Even before then, for the Sons of Antaeus chapter (which, in-universe, some people think are from Death Guard gene seed), "detractors" would only accuse them of being from the Death Guard only as an insult, and it's not mentioned anywhere that any one ever thought to accuse them of Heresy for that.

I've not heard of that before. But I have read their bit from the Cursed Founding which says

Less sympathetic observers point out that the chapter appears every bit as resilient as the Death Guard Traitor Legion.

Something can appear to be like something, it doesn't make it what it seems to be like. We also don't know the reasons why the parallel had been made or what the nature behind these are. It's going to be derogatory, as you don''t bring up a cursed traitor as praise, but why?

TiamatRoar wrote:

The tone of your post was clearly atempting to discourage the OP from doing something just because you didn't think it was possible, even though we already have someone in-universe who believes that it is. Perhaps you aren't trying to directly force the OP to do something, but I think it's very important to point out here that Forge World (and, assuming the OP is accepting Forge World as "canon", canon fluff itself) is clearly giving the OP the okay, even if you personally are against the idea. You give all your theories that its impossible as if they are plausible, which is fine, but Forge World (dunno about Games Workshop) themselves are clearly screaming that the possibility is indeed quite there.

If you have the quote from the person in universe then that would be great, as I haven't read it.

The original OP

mane11354 wrote:
What happend to all loyalists that were in the traitor legions during the Horus heresy? I know that some of them were recruited to Knight-Errent but what about the others? Were they killed? Absorbed into another legion? Etc

This doesn't sound to me like he is asking 'Can I make a loyalist Traitor chapter' which seems to be what you are saying. To me he is asking what happened to them. I was addressing those, like yourself, saying that they went on to form new chapters. We have no proof that they did. A possibility doesn't mean that it did happen. I was presenting the reasons why it might not be the case. The truthful answer in regards to these Legionnaires is that we don't know.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Slip of the keyboard and that's not what I have said. I said from reading here it would seem that a chapter was built from Dantiochs geneseed alone. Which wouldn't be the case like you say. Going through the posts this is a reading fail on my behalf as Dantioch and the other Iron Warriors were mentioned, so I apologies there. But we have no idea at all what happens to Dantioch, he could be dead in the next book. It could be that the Silver Skulls were created in honour of Dantioch and the Iron Warriors that assisted the defence the Palace. We just don't know. Hopefully, we find out at the end of the Heresy. I hope not another 20 odd books. Their Geneseed would eventually have to be used to create new Astartes, otherwise the chapter would just die out.

Yes, I don't think anyone is saying the original Silver Skulls are guaranteed to be Dantioch and his group. It's just that lots of people think that it's a likely possibility. Of course, a possibility is not proven and there are other possible explanations (such as the one you pointed out), but them's the breaks.

TiamatRoar wrote:

Source? If the traitor legions as a whole were stamped that way and included even the loyalists, why is Garro known in Imperial history as the hero of Isstvaan? If the Excommunicate Traitoris applied to him just for being in a traitor legion, he wouldn't be known in Imperial history at all, would he? He'd have been purged from the record. Why has Forge World's book not even mentioned that they'd have to go into hiding to avoid Imperial Retribution? The ONLY reason mentioned by the scholar to hide one's traitor primarch is for reasons of HONOR. If it was ILLEGAL to have a traitor primarch, don't you think he would have mentioned that as well?

Garro is a different case as are the Marines Errant. They have no Legion and an exemption was made for them by Malcador. The others, I don't believe had the same applied to them. They were still Iron Warriors. As far as we know the other 60 or so Death Guard that were with Garro on the Eisenstien are still on Luna. If they weren't tarnished with the same brush as their traitor brothers, why are they still there?

Maybe they aren't still there and Black Library simply hasn't gotten around to them again, yet. Or maybe they are. Since we don't know for sure, they can't really be taken as evidence that they were all jailed or penalized for being from the traitor legions if we aren't given any indication of that.

I don't have the source on Excommunicate Traitoris to hand, but it has to have some meaning. Although there is an instance where the Doom Legion had four companies that were not sent on the Abyssal Crusade and were deemed as being loyal to the Emperor where the others that did take part in it were declared to be traitors. So, I guess it is possible maybe. But then they weren't Iron Warriors.

Yea, I don't see any case of a fluff ever where loyalist space marines were put to the sword just because their brothers turned traitor. If anything, you'd think that (after a very thorough examination to make sure they really ARE loyal, of course, like what they did to the surviving Vorpal Swords of the Abyssal Crusade) such Marines would be celebrated for remaining true to the Emperor even as their peers (and peer pressure) tried to persuade them otherwise. Certainly Malacador thought that was the case when he decided that several loyalists from traitor legions were good enough to be a part of the core of the Grey Knights' precursors.

Why if he is just musing in his own notes?

If an Imperial Scholar that's high enough to know this much about the heresy is musing in his notes about the possibility of loyalists from traitor legions later on forming their own chapters, and there really was evidence or an Imperial scree that they would have been purged or sent on a no-chance-of-survival mission for a redemption-through-death, you'd think he would have brought it up? This is an Imperial Scholar that's authorized to study the heresy and know about Chaos and such when such information is otherwise with held from the vast majority of the Imperium (seriously, he even has access to knowledge from "evidence found in the eye of terror" that Lorgar purposefully sent the Word Bearers to Calth to die). I'd think he'd be in a position to know if there was evidence that such loyalists were either executed or given the chance to die in battle, instead of possibly going on to create their own chapters.

And yet, he doesn't mention that anywhere.

He is pondering on and thinking about the chances of loyalists from traitor legions forming their own chapters, and in his ponderings, no where EVER does he even CONSIDER the notion that the Imperium punished them for being from traitor legions. At most, he just brings up the (quite reasonable) speculation that they'd hide their primarchs for honor reasons.

If it really was that clear-cut that the Imperium destroyed (either via execution, or via sending them off to one last crusade to die) the loyalists from traitor legions, don't you think he would have brought up that possibility while he was musing on the chance of loyalists going on to make their own Space Marine chapters?

If you have the quote from the person in universe then that would be great, as I haven't read it.

As to the long term viability of these lost Legiones Astartes detachments, it is difficult to say. Given sufficient gene-seed and technical competence it is entirely possible for such a formation to maintain its strength over a protracted period, inducting and training new recruits in the same way as a normal modern-era Space Marine Chapter. There is certainly numerous cases cited throughout Imperial history where this has occurred, such as the Space Wolves 13th Company. This might explain how the Death Eagles were able to survive the Age of Darkness as well as the subsequent era of the Great Scouring. If the Death Eagles are indeed descended from the Emperor's Children, it would explain why their true origins have been purposely obfuscated. Such a connection to a reviled Traitor Legion would also be a terrible dishonour and would explain why the Death Eagles' heritage and original Legion colours may have been deliberately obscured from the Imperial record.

(note: The 2nd Founding occurred AFTER the Great Scouring, IIRC, which is why the scholar had to ponder on how a loyalist contingent from a traitor legion could survive through the Great Scouring before going on to become a new chapter).

The original OP

mane11354 wrote:
What happend to all loyalists that were in the traitor legions during the Horus heresy? I know that some of them were recruited to Knight-Errent but what about the others? Were they killed? Absorbed into another legion? Etc

This doesn't sound to me like he is asking 'Can I make a loyalist Traitor chapter' which seems to be what you are saying. To me he is asking what happened to them. I was addressing those, like yourself, saying that they went on to form new chapters. We have no proof that they did. A possibility doesn't mean that it did happen. I was presenting the reasons why it might not be the case. The truthful answer in regards to these Legionnaires is that we don't know.

 Lord Corellia wrote:
But isn't the idea that the gene-seed itself is corrupted flawed? I mean, sure, those Legions turned traitor. Not in their entirety though, and a TON of Chapters/ Companies sourced from one of the "good" Primarchs have turned traitor since...

It's just to enhance the whole "stupid superstitions" thing that 40k's got going for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gashrog wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I don't believe there would be enough genetic material to form an entirely new chapter from Dantioch alone.

The established fluff for post-2nd founding chapter creation does start with a single set of implants, if he still had his second progenoid it would be possible.

Wasn't Dantioch with an entire Grand Company of Iron Warriors? Seems like ample genetic stock to me.

mane11354 wrote:
What happend to all loyalists that were in the traitor legions during the Horus heresy? I know that some of them were recruited to Knight-Errent but what about the others? Were they killed? Absorbed into another legion? Etc

Read the books man. They got slaughtered at Istavan III.

Thanks for the quote and for the discussion. Like I said, it is a possibility that there could be but there are also reasons why there wouldn't be. Until we know the fates of the likes of Garro and Dantioch i'll contiinue to say sure maybe but also maybe not.

Isnt Red Scorpions emperors childrens? With their focus on genetic purity etc.

Blood Ravens seems to be everything but confirmed in writing that they descend from thousand sons.

Rainbow Warriors certainly has a distorted background, and most certainly comes from some traitor primarch.