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What happend to all loyalists that were in the traitor legions during the Horus heresy? I know that some of them were recruited to Knight-Errent but what about the others? Were they killed? Absorbed into another legion? Etc

I know that the Emperor's Children at least exterminated the loyalists in their midst, so I'll presume other legions did the same.

The Legions slaughtered the loyalists in their midst on Istvaan III. For many of them, it accounted for 30% of their strength.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Isstvan_III

According to Forge World some survived as 'Blackshields', but Forge World has yet to get round to explaining what that entailed in the 31st millenium. In the 41st millenium Blackshields are a part of the Deathwatch: marines of unknown origin who join the Deathwatch for life.

Well apparently Dantioch is still alive and kicking and spurring up a whole set of rumors that him and his surviving Iron Warrior loyalists were the beginnings of the Silver Skulls chapter (or perhaps inspired their creation).

 King Pariah wrote:
Well apparently Dantioch is still alive and kicking and spurring up a whole set of rumors that him and his surviving Iron Warrior loyalists were the beginnings of the Silver Skulls chapter (or perhaps inspired their creation).

My understanding was Guilliman gave dantioch a successor chapter for all his hard work with that unknown technology.

In terms of 2nd founding chapters (so Red Scorpions and Minotaurs need not apply):

In the Conquest Forgeworld book, there's a loyalist company of Emperor's Children called the Death Eagles. The scholar actually comments that there's a chance the Death Eagles space marine chapter might be descended from them, but then states that if that's the case, such a connection would be deliberately obscured for honor reasons. Interestingly enough, this makes it canon (as far as Forge World is canon) that it's not illegal to be descended from a traitor primarch, but it is such a huge shame (for obvious reasons) that any Space Marine chapter would cover it up, hypothetically.

Dantioch's iron mask looks almost exactly like the Silver Skull chapter's livery, and his company of Iron Warriors were really buddy-buddy with the Ultramarines. The Silver Skulls have always just "claimed" to be descended from the Ultramarines.

There's a loyalist Thousand Sons contingent whos name basically translates as the Raven cult and one of their characters is named very similar to a famous hero of the Blood Ravens space marine chapter. And there's a prophecy of lost thousand sons who are "ravens crying tears of blood."

Some people think Carcharodons might be descended from loyalist Night Lords, but it's pretty darn blatant in Massacre that they're Raven Guard.

Of course, a few loyalists from traitor legions became Malcador's Knight Errants, who were the precursors to the Grey Knights. Not all of them survived to the founding of the Grey Knights though (Lacton Cruze being the first casualty)

In general, most loyalists were purged at the Isstvaan atrocity and before it, although (presumably because the galaxy is so big) the primarchs missed quite a few spots. While obviously uncommon, there are enough examples of individual loyalists from traitor legions trhoughout the various Black Library and Forge World stories that it'd be kind of a pain in the butt to list them all.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Istvaan_III_(Isstvan_III)

Istvaan III happened.


other notes:
blood ravens are possibly loyalist Thousand sons (ignore that most TS's were loyal, gak just went wrong)
Carcharodons are possibly loyalist Night Lords
Death Eagles are possibly Loyalist Emperor's Children
A large portion of Ultrmarine successors are possibly from the 2 missing legions, Iron warrior loyalists, and more

 King Pariah wrote:
Well apparently Dantioch is still alive and kicking and spurring up a whole set of rumors that him and his surviving Iron Warrior loyalists were the beginnings of the Silver Skulls chapter (or perhaps inspired their creation).

TiamatRoar wrote:
In terms of 2nd founding chapters (so Red Scorpions and Minotaurs need not apply):

In the Conquest Forgeworld book, there's a loyalist company of Emperor's Children called the Death Eagles. The scholar actually comments that there's a chance the Death Eagles space marine chapter might be descended from them, but then states that if that's the case, such a connection would be deliberately obscured for honor reasons. Interestingly enough, this makes it canon (as far as Forge World is canon) that it's not illegal to be descended from a traitor primarch, but it is such a huge shame (for obvious reasons) that any Space Marine chapter would cover it up, hypothetically.

Dantioch's iron mask looks almost exactly like the Silver Skull chapter's livery, and his company of Iron Warriors were really buddy-buddy with the Ultramarines. The Silver Skulls have always just "claimed" to be descended from the Ultramarines.

There's a loyalist Thousand Sons contingent whos name basically translates as the Raven cult and one of their characters is named very similar to a famous hero of the Blood Ravens space marine chapter. And there's a prophecy of lost thousand sons who are "ravens crying tears of blood."

Some people think Carcharodons might be descended from loyalist Night Lords, but it's pretty darn blatant in Massacre that they're Raven Guard.

Of course, a few loyalists from traitor legions became Malcador's Knight Errants, who were the precursors to the Grey Knights. Not all of them survived to the founding of the Grey Knights though (Lacton Cruze being the first casualty)

In general, most loyalists were purged at the Isstvaan atrocity and before it, although (presumably because the galaxy is so big) the primarchs missed quite a few spots. While obviously uncommon, there are enough examples of individual loyalists from traitor legions trhoughout the various Black Library and Forge World stories that it'd be kind of a pain in the butt to list them all.

This, basically.

Also, the Alpha Legion fought a civil war during the Horus Heresy between what seems to be a Loyalist Omegon faction and a Traitor Alpharius faction.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Also, the Alpha Legion fought a civil war during the Horus Heresy between what seems to be a Loyalist Omegon faction and a Traitor Alpharius faction.

What?

-STS

So if a force of loyalists survived the Istvaan III they would get a chapter to "hide" in, if i understand the things you've posted?

mane11354 wrote:
So if a force of loyalists survived the Istvaan III they would get a chapter to "hide" in, if i understand the things you've posted?

Yes. They'd also purposefully destroy or obscure their records of them being from their primarch (and the rest of the Imperium would likely help them in that fact, as the traitor primarchs were declared to be wiped from the record).and come up with a lie that they're from someone else (like the Silver Skulls saying they're from the Ultramarines, and the Death Eagles saying they're from the Raven Guard).

Again, it's implied that this is done more as a matter of honor rather than them 'hiding' from Imperial Retribution. Not that it's directly stated (yet), but I HIGHLY doubt the Imperium would execute those who stayed loyal just because they're from a traitor primarch considering that Nathaniel Garro of the Death Guard today is celebrated as "The Hero of Isstvaan".

But we don't really know the exact process of how such a thing would happen. The in-universe scholar can only speculate on such things because obviously the records would have been deliberately obscurred.

As an aside, there canonically were more survivors on Isstvaan than just Cerberus, even if that clashes a little with Black Library's depiction of the nurgle-infested aftermath. Caleb Decima and a Death Guard guy who's name I can't remember were mentioned in the Forge World books as some who managed to survive.

Crysos Morturg is the DG guy who survived. Complete badass, I'm pretty sure Betrayal is written from his accounts of Istvaan III.

From what I recall of the deathwatch RPG the black shields are members of the deathwatch who, while already serving in the watch, lost their chapter. This could be because the chapter was obliterated, but more commonly its because the chapter turned traitor. These black shields are so named because they replace their chapter black with an all black one to hide the shame.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Interestingly enough, this makes it canon (as far as Forge World is canon) that it's not illegal to be descended from a traitor primarch, but it is such a huge shame (for obvious reasons) that any Space Marine chapter would cover it up, hypothetically.

I'm not sure what you mean here entirely. This isn't confirmation that there are Chapters descended from Traitor Legions, just a hint that if there were, their past would have to be covered up.So I think I am missing your point.
There has always been speculation that there are Chapters descended from Traitors but none have ever been confirmed. There could be. But there's some pretty big reasons why there wouldn't be and I can imagine why, if there were, the cover up would be required regardless of how loyal the individual proved to be.

Possibly, for example, Dantioch survived and was put in charge of a new Chapter, being the Silver Skulls, if it is true, until his death and a new chapter master appointed after that. I don't believe there would be enough genetic material to form an entirely new chapter from Dantioch alone. Also I guess there is a risk of that gene - seed going wrong again. I doubt they would use any Iron Warriors gene - seed for fear of it being a dud batch again. According to the 6th Ed Space Marine codex Guilliman himself was concerned with the flaws in the gene - seed. of the traitor legions.

TiamatRoar wrote:

Again, it's implied that this is done more as a matter of honor rather than them 'hiding' from Imperial Retribution. Not that it's directly stated (yet), but I HIGHLY doubt the Imperium would execute those who stayed loyal just because they're from a traitor primarch considering that Nathaniel Garro of the Death Guard today is celebrated as "The Hero of Isstvaan".

Or they were allowed a hero's death on the field of battle, rather than face execution for their brothers actions. Garro is a bit of a different story and too much of a high profile case. It's not like the High Lords couldn't bop them off and then come up with a colourful story of fighting against the traitors until their last breath and then being killed.

If there were known loyalist traitor chapters (confusing ) I can imagine some Chapters not wanting to fight alongside them or actively pursuing them. Imagine if the Space Wolves found out that the Blood Ravens were in fact Thousand Sons.

But isn't the idea that the gene-seed itself is corrupted flawed? I mean, sure, those Legions turned traitor. Not in their entirety though, and a TON of Chapters/ Companies sourced from one of the "good" Primarchs have turned traitor since...

 Lord Corellia wrote:
But isn't the idea that the gene-seed itself is corrupted flawed? I mean, sure, those Legions turned traitor. Not in their entirety though, and a TON of Chapters/ Companies sourced from one of the "good" Primarchs have turned traitor since...

Yes, but why take the risk with a geneseed that you know is when you could use one with a 95% record.

I'm not saying it isn't possible as it is. I just think that there are a lot of reasons why it wouldn't be and do we really need them. It's not like the loyalists don't have your tough marines, your crazy marines or your stealthy marines already. Chaos on the other hand needs more loyalists to defect so that we might get a better codex

Because Ultramarines are boring!

It makes the fluff seem more interesting and gives the loyalists from the traitor legions some degree of redemption, but I agree that from a logic standpoint it makes far less sense.

 Lord Corellia wrote:
Because Ultramarines are boring!

It makes the fluff seem more interesting and gives the loyalists from the traitor legions some degree of redemption, but I agree that from a logic standpoint it makes far less sense.

I think that it's interesting as it is. That they weren't executed on sight and that they have been allowed to fight amongst the loyalists. I don't think that they need to go on to form Chapters though. Death in battle is redemption enough!

Logic in 40k is also a silly idea really

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I don't believe there would be enough genetic material to form an entirely new chapter from Dantioch alone.

The established fluff for post-2nd founding chapter creation does start with a single set of implants, if he still had his second progenoid it would be possible.

slade the sniper wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Also, the Alpha Legion fought a civil war during the Horus Heresy between what seems to be a Loyalist Omegon faction and a Traitor Alpharius faction.

What?

-STS

The novella Seventh Serpent states that a civil war amongst the Alpha Legion occurs during the Horus Heresy and all but says that the Loyalist elements are led by Omegon.

 King Pariah wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Also, the Alpha Legion fought a civil war during the Horus Heresy between what seems to be a Loyalist Omegon faction and a Traitor Alpharius faction.

What?

-STS

The novella Seventh Serpent states that a civil war amongst the Alpha Legion occurs during the Horus Heresy and all but says that the Loyalist elements are led by Omegon.

It started off in the Serpent Beneath by the excellent Rob Sanders.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Interestingly enough, this makes it canon (as far as Forge World is canon) that it's not illegal to be descended from a traitor primarch, but it is such a huge shame (for obvious reasons) that any Space Marine chapter would cover it up, hypothetically.

I'm not sure what you mean here entirely. This isn't confirmation that there are Chapters descended from Traitor Legions, just a hint that if there were, their past would have to be covered up.So I think I am missing your point.
There has always been speculation that there are Chapters descended from Traitors but none have ever been confirmed. There could be. But there's some pretty big reasons why there wouldn't be and I can imagine why, if there were, the cover up would be required regardless of how loyal the individual proved to be.

Possibly, for example, Dantioch survived and was put in charge of a new Chapter, being the Silver Skulls, if it is true, until his death and a new chapter master appointed after that. I don't believe there would be enough genetic material to form an entirely new chapter from Dantioch alone. Also I guess there is a risk of that gene - seed going wrong again. I doubt they would use any Iron Warriors gene - seed for fear of it being a dud batch again. According to the 6th Ed Space Marine codex Guilliman himself was concerned with the flaws in the gene - seed. of the traitor legions.

TiamatRoar wrote:

Again, it's implied that this is done more as a matter of honor rather than them 'hiding' from Imperial Retribution. Not that it's directly stated (yet), but I HIGHLY doubt the Imperium would execute those who stayed loyal just because they're from a traitor primarch considering that Nathaniel Garro of the Death Guard today is celebrated as "The Hero of Isstvaan".

Or they were allowed a hero's death on the field of battle, rather than face execution for their brothers actions. Garro is a bit of a different story and too much of a high profile case. It's not like the High Lords couldn't bop them off and then come up with a colourful story of fighting against the traitors until their last breath and then being killed.

If there were known loyalist traitor chapters (confusing ) I can imagine some Chapters not wanting to fight alongside them or actively pursuing them. Imagine if the Space Wolves found out that the Blood Ravens were in fact Thousand Sons.

Dantioch isn't alone. He has a lot of loyalist Iron Warriors under him. I don't know exact numbers, though, but it's definately more than a small handful.

(as an aside, the pre-heresy Blood Raven suspected loyalists also aren't just down to one character, either. IIRC in that case it was specifically stated there were around a thousand of them, but my memory could be wrong)

As for "Imagine if the Space Wolves found out that the Blood Ravens were in fact Thousand Sons", that would fall under the "It's a huge dishonor so they purposefully obscure the records" category. If you recall, the Blood Ravens' story includes a clear implication that someone in the Blood Ravens destroyed the records of their primarch, probably at least in part to make sure "Space Wolves find out that they are in fact, Thousand Sons" never happens in the first place.

Just because it isn't illegal to be descended from a traitor primarch doesn't mean that it wouldn't cause huge issues anyways. A space marine chapter would have to be utter morons to not obscure the records if they knew.

I should repeat, the whole "loyalists from traitor legions possibly went on to create new chapters and then destroyed the records of their primarchs" speculation is CANON speculation. Of course, there's no guarantee that it actually happened, but the fact that an in-universe Imperial Scholar is actually speculating on it in-universe shows the possibility exists. And that's all that's needed for anyone who wants to make their chapter be descended from a traitor primarch (which was likely Forge World's intent in the first place). He even speculated on an actual existing Space Marine chapter (the Death Eagles, who have existed in the fluff before as a "suspected but unconfirmed descendant of the Raven Guard") actually being descended from the Emperor's Children. You might have your own speculations on what was done with loyalists from traitor legions, but that doesn't change the fact that there are actual canon speculations existing in-universe that speculate, otherwise.

If a person wants to make their chapter be descended from a traitor legion, Forge World has clearly said "Sure, go ahead! As you can see, the possibility exists in the fluff!" by having the Imperial scholar speculate on the possibility. Of course, they also left open the possibility that none exist by having it just be a speculation, but the point is that the original poster has clearly been given the go ahead by Forge World to do whatever he wants.

TiamatRoar wrote:

Dantioch isn't alone. He has a lot of loyalist Iron Warriors under him. I don't know exact numbers, though, but it's definately more than a small handful.

(as an aside, the pre-heresy Blood Raven suspected loyalists also aren't just down to one character, either. IIRC in that case it was specifically stated there were around a thousand of them, but my memory could be wrong)

Yes, more than Dantioch escaped from the Schandehold. But from what's been said here, it would seem that an entire Legion was built form Dantiochs Gene-seed.

I think you are right here. It was the 4th Fellowship that were sent away by Magnus.

TiamatRoar wrote:
As for "Imagine if the Space Wolves found out that the Blood Ravens were in fact Thousand Sons", that would fall under the "It's a huge dishonor so they purposefully obscure the records" category. If you recall, the Blood Ravens' story includes a clear implication that someone in the Blood Ravens destroyed the records of their primarch, probably at least in part to make sure "Space Wolves find out that they are in fact, Thousand Sons" never happens in the first place.

Which is exactly my point. If there was even the smallest possibility that their past could be revealed then why run the risk. What I was referring to was

TiamatRoar wrote:
Interestingly enough, this makes it canon (as far as Forge World is canon) that it's not illegal to be descended from a traitor primarch, but it is such a huge shame (for obvious reasons) that any Space Marine chapter would cover it up, hypothetically.

It might be a shame that they cover it up, for they did do a great justice to the Imperium, but they are still from a traitor legion.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Just because it isn't illegal to be descended from a traitor primarch doesn't mean that it wouldn't cause huge issues anyways. A space marine chapter would have to be utter morons to not obscure the records if they knew

If you are declared Excommunicate Traitoris it's not something you can get away from and covering it up could lead to dire consequences. The whole of the traitor Legions were stamped this way.

I just don't see it as something that they would do. If the Geneseed was flawed, even in the ones that stayed loyal. Who's to say that a new founding using the same wouldn't go the way of their traitor brothers. Perhaps it was the strength of the individuals character that prevented them from falling. I just see it as a risk that the Imperium wouldn't take. Maybe though after such a period of time they want to try new things out. But why lock the Traitor Gene seed away on Terra in a stasis vault if you're just going to use it anyway? The batches kept on Terra hadn't been used to create other Astartes yet.

TiamatRoar wrote:

I should repeat, the whole "loyalists from traitor legions possibly went on to create new chapters and then destroyed the records of their primarchs" speculation is CANON speculation. Of course, there's no guarantee that it actually happened, but the fact that an in-universe Imperial Scholar is actually speculating on it in-universe shows the possibility exists. And that's all that's needed for anyone who wants to make their chapter be descended from a traitor primarch (which was likely Forge World's intent in the first place). He even speculated on an actual existing Space Marine chapter (the Death Eagles, who have existed in the fluff before as a "suspected but unconfirmed descendant of the Raven Guard") actually being descended from the Emperor's Children. You might have your own speculations on what was done with loyalists from traitor legions, but that doesn't change the fact that there are actual canon speculations existing in-universe that speculate, otherwise.

Which is I am said there could be. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just highly unlikely. Speculation doesn't equal an actual thing and there is no proof that there are any descended from traitor Legions. What we do have is the 2nd founding and that the 2nd founding Chapters were split from the loyalist legions and that the Traitor Geneseed was locked in stasis.

I wouldn't tell someone that they can't do it. But it doesn't mean that I am not going to give reasons for why I don't think it is possible. This is a place for discussion after all.

TiamatRoar wrote:

If a person wants to make their chapter be descended from a traitor legion, Forge World has clearly said "Sure, go ahead! As you can see, the possibility exists in the fluff!" by having the Imperial scholar speculate on the possibility. Of course, they also left open the possibility that none exist by having it just be a speculation, but the point is that the original poster has clearly been given the go ahead by Forge World to do whatever he wants.

Speculation that something might be descended from a Traitor Legion doesn't make it so. But nor does it prevent it true. GW did the same with the 13th Dark Founding and the 21st Cursed Founding. The Cursed being the better candidate due to the interference of Bile. If there were actual proof then I would be more inclined to say, yes, go ahead and do it. But there isn't and there isn't any firm evidence to suggest otherwise. Just speculation.

Once again, I'm not saying it's not possible or not to do it. I'm just having a discussion as to why I don't think it is or would be possible. So I don't disagree with you TiamatRoar, i'm just presenting for a no argument

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But why lock the Traitor Gene seed away on Terra in a stasis vault if you're just going to use it anyway?

To protect the identity of said chapters. If the AdMech had free access to the traitor geneseed for analysis or experimentation it would only be a matter of time before some lowly Adept noticed a similarity between it and that being tithed by extant chapters, which upon further analysis would confirm their true lineage. Keeping it under lock and key prevents that from happening.

 Lord Corellia wrote:
But isn't the idea that the gene-seed itself is corrupted flawed? I mean, sure, those Legions turned traitor. Not in their entirety though, and a TON of Chapters/ Companies sourced from one of the "good" Primarchs have turned traitor since...

Keep in mind that the Age of the Imperium is not an Age of Reason. Ignorance is actively lauded as a ward against corruption. "A logical argument must be dismissed with absolute conviction!", as the 4th edition rulebook taught us.

 Gashrog wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But why lock the Traitor Gene seed away on Terra in a stasis vault if you're just going to use it anyway?

To protect the identity of said chapters. If the AdMech had free access to the traitor geneseed for analysis or experimentation it would only be a matter of time before some lowly Adept noticed a similarity between it and that being tithed by extant chapters, which upon further analysis would confirm their true lineage. Keeping it under lock and key prevents that from happening.

It's also placed under lock and key so that it doesn't get used again.

mane11354 wrote:
So if a force of loyalists survived the Istvaan III they would get a chapter to "hide" in, if i understand the things you've posted?

Yes. For the purpose of covering the shame originally, not from Imperial retribution. Although in the 41st millenium, with all the lost knowledge of what actually happened if any chapter were discovered to be descended from traitor geneseed they might find themselves on the wrong end of a purge simply out of ignorance and fear.

Only the High Lords likely know the exact lineage of every chapter in existence. Heck many chapters might not even know their origins. Their founders may have deliberately kept future generations in the dark. if the Dark Angels do it just for a small portion of traitors, why not if you were the very small portion of loyalists?

This raises an interesting question: given that we have some idea that members of traitor legions formed loyalist chapters, what happened to the loyalist 3rd of the Death Guard (which Lexicanum claims existed)?
I mean, Istvaan III will get rid of a lot of guys, but I imagine so large a group would have some survivors.

P.S. I ask because I'm currently sketching out the background for a loyalist Death Guard force set during the Scouring and I wonder if there's anything canon.

I believe they all got exterminated on Istvaan III as far as canon is concerned, but nothing says there couldn't have been a group that survived in a bunker somewhere that escaped.