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Yeah, I get the whole "chasing the dragon" escalation when pursuing vices (to some degree from a mis-spent youth). What I don't get is how gluttony, lust and substance abuse inevitably escalates into extreme sexual violence. IRL Junkies are far more likely to OD than become serial rapists.
MarsNZ wrote: Yeah, I get the whole "chasing the dragon" escalation when pursuing vices (to some degree from a mis-spent youth). What I don't get is how gluttony, lust and substance abuse inevitably escalates into extreme sexual violence. IRL Junkies are far more likely to OD than become serial rapists.
The rapists thing is just because, well, pleasure is amazing, and sex is one of the easiest ways of achieving it (if you're raping), and Slaanesh loves pleasure (in excess), so it would make sense for many of his cults to feature this. IRL, invading armies are constantly raping the locals (see: any documented siege in Medieval History, Russion treatment of Berlin, etc.), so would it not make sense for Slaaneshi cultists (who have zero self control) to also rape the locals, only in a way that also causes excessive pain, excessive sound (screams), etc.?
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
MarsNZ wrote: Yeah, I get the whole "chasing the dragon" escalation when pursuing vices (to some degree from a mis-spent youth). What I don't get is how gluttony, lust and substance abuse inevitably escalates into extreme sexual violence. IRL Junkies are far more likely to OD than become serial rapists.
Depends on the drugs, gluttony, and lust in question.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
MarsNZ wrote: There's a picture floating round the internet which I always thought summed up Slaanesh wonderfully, without the constant focus on sexual violence that seems to be all he's about nowadays.
It was clearly a cult, everyone's lounging around being all hedonistic. There's strippers, drugs, gluttony, narcissism, probably a bit of music going, vices that appeal to the downtrodden masses who toil away their lives for an uncaring and brutal regime. In the centre of the room there's a Demonette. These people don't know the forces they're messing with, just that they enjoy the 'messing with' stage very much, so much that they are unconcerned by the potential consequences. It's real, believable, and rejects the stupid "Rape Warriors" that gets comparatively far too much attention.
Boom, first result on Google.
That's the cover to Tome of Corruption from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. The RPG's really do get some of the best art, don't they? There's another one with a bunch of Tzeentch cultists summoning a Horror that I thought was awesome, but I can't find it online, sadly.
I always pictured Slaanesh cults as generally starting one of two ways:
1) Escapism. Poor or rich, people start dabbling because they feel they're lives suck, and a little drugs and kinky sex helps ease the pain, relieve the stress, and take their mind off their problems. They figure it's just harmless fun until their tastes start to get more and more extreme and the urges get harder and harder to resist... Before long they're deep in the depths of addiction, and Slaanesh has his/her hooks in them good.
2) Ambition. Someone, or a group of someones, is obsessed with being really good at... something. Could be anything. Becoming a great musician, writer, cook, fighter, whatever. They just really crave being the best, along with the fame, respect and recognition that come with it. So they either learn about Slaanesh themselves, or one of Slaanesh's followers approaches them in disguise. Either way, they cut a deal. They get the extra focus, energy, poise, creativity, etc, they need and start pursuing their ambition like crazy. They grow famous and beloved. At the same time, their new master starts to twist their minds. Meanwhile, their fanclub also gets corrupted and becomes totally obsessed with Slaanesh's new champion. This type of cult would be the most likely way to explore the "non-sex and drugs" side of Slaanesh.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
To answer MarsNZ, that's where the "unnatural eldritch god" part of the equation comes in. Slaanesh worshipers don't OD because Slaanesh sustains them, and they tend to become abusive deviants because that's the direction Slaanesh nudges them in. Remember, there's a supernatural effect happening here, so real world logic doesn't entirely apply.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/09 05:51:51
While Slaneesh is my least favorite chaos god, I will say unless GW wants to retcon a major part of their universe, Slaneesh is staying. I will agree that it is necessary for 40k, and actually does add something unique to the rest of Chaos, regardless of how much I prefer the other 3.
Irishpeacockz-Blackjack needs a pay raise for being the welcomer to the crusade
Palleus-Write a school essay about Kroot! Pride. Prejudice. And Cannibalsim.
Poly Ranger wrote: To be fair Nanking, whilst being utterly abhorrent, pales in comparison to the Mongol invasion of China and the rest of Asia. What happened in Nanking was also an accepted outcome of seige warfare in the medieval ages. Hell even as recently as the Napoleonic wars where the French armies raped and pillaged in the name of 'living off the land' and even the British at Badajoz, despite it being an allied town and any looters being hung by the provosts.
If we do look at the 20th century, I'd argue the Holocoust, the Carpet Bombing of Dresden, the atomic atrocities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Stalin's Purges and the genocide commited in the Bosnian war, amongst others, make for much more shocking reading. I am not saying that Nanking isn't absolutely horrendous, but if you want to lose your faith in humanity - there are even worse sources.
And lets not bring up current times with Assad, IS and Boko Haram.
I'm sorry but there seems to be a recent trend of hand wringing over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and it really makes me angry.
1) It wasn't just the Rape of Nanking. The Japanese military forced hundreds of thousands of Korean women into sex slavery ("comfort women"), herded thousands of Chinese up to torture to death for mostly aimless science experiments in Unit 731, and were ridiculously brutal to prisoners of war. These weren't isolated attrocities like can be found in any war, they were Japan's war policy. It's no exaggeration to say that the Showa era Japanese leadership was at least as bad as the Nazis. Yet nobody wrings hands over the bombing of Berlin, German villagers being starved, or the things the Soviets did during their invasion of Germany, and Nazis are killed for laughs all the time in movies and videogames. I guess the difference is that Japan suppresses information about their country's atrocities in their text books, and we don't learn about them in the west either. Therefore people think the Showa era was just fine and dandy, and why did we need to fight so hard to STOP it, anyway?
2) A big part of the reason for the A-Bombs being dropped was because a land invasion of Japan had projected casualties in the MILLIONS for both sides. And that very much included Japanese civilians, through the Showa government's own fault. They were training schoolkids to be child soldiers and encouraging peasants to be suicide bombers with propaganda saying Americans would EAT THEM if they caught them. The whole plan was to make the fighting as horrific, with as much death as possible, so the Americans would negotiate a truce that would leave the Showa government in power and hopefully with some of the countries they invaded. Once they realized that they couldn't hope to fight back against the A-bomb, they surrendered.
Were the bombings horrific? No doubt, but how would you have dealt with the Showa government if it were you? Let them keep brutalizing Chinese, Phillipinos, and Koreans? Launch a land invasion with more deaths on both sides?
Don't think that this rant means I hate Japanese people. I have Japanese friends, and l love them. My point is, it was a complicated situation, and a HUGE portion of the blame for what happened rests on the Showa military leaders who pushed things to that point. So when it gets dumbed down to "as bad as the Holocaust" and "mean Americans wiping out Japanese for no reason" I get a little testy.
Anyway, we're way off topic. To the OP- no, no, a thousand times no, although you're probably just trolling anyway.
I did actually bring up the carpet bombing of Dresden as my first example so I am not forgetting what happened to Germany was horrendous. And I aren't making it black and white. I know full well why the atomic bombs were dropped, to save more lives in the long run, and also to demonstrate to the USSR that the USA had a working atomic bomb. But that doesn't make the obliteration of 2 entire cities of innocent civilians something that can just be bypassed with excuses. It was a horrific war crime that has never officially been acknowledged as such. Those civilians were not the ones responsible for brutalising the other Pacific nations.
The reason why I say Nanking doesn't shock as much as the others (still shocks though don't get me wrong) is because it had happened time and time again as war policy down the ages, from Ancient Rome, through the maurauding Norse and Danes to every Medieval European nation to have existed. Rape, slavery and torture were nothing new, although they can never be excused. The thing that is shocking about it is the scale and that it happened in the 20th century. When it comes to the scale, nothing outstrips the Mongol expansion and the only things which come close are Stalin's Purges and the Holocaust.
Fair enough. When a lot of people talk about Hiroshima and Nagasaki as war crimes, they tend to be very ignorant of Japanese war crimes against other east Asian nations, resulting in a very one sided and even propagandist view of history. The current Japanese government censoring these things from schoolbooks makes it even more concerning. I see that wasn't what you intended.
Anyway, let's get back to discussing serious matters of fictional gods that command plastic toy soldiers.
MarsNZ wrote: You've got a seriously fethed up view on what Slaanesh is all about mate.
If your view of Slaanesh isn't fethed up, you're not viewing Slaanesh correctly.
Slaanesh is the God of Pleasure, Perversion and Vice. Extremes of sensation and experience, obsessions and addictions. The unending quest for perfection, an obsession so strong that your mind, body and soul will be forever tormented by the knowledge that true perfection is just one, maybe two, steps further on... forever. Eternally.
Our petty human fetishes and peccadillos that we giggle about in pop culture and shame people publicly for confessing? That's boring, boring, boring to Slaanesh. Not worthy of hir notice. Once you get into the really twisted gak... now you're speaking Slaanesh's language.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
fallinq wrote: Once they realized that they couldn't hope to fight back against the A-bomb, they surrendered.
Well, the A-bomb and the Russian army, anyway...
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
A-bomb was used against civilian targets so it was war crime, but i see point. Something like when Corax bombarded Kiavahr if you wish.
"Faith is the soul of any army; be it vested in primitive religion or enlightened truth. It makes even the least soldier mighty, the craven is remade worthy and through its balm any hardship may be endured. Faith ennobles all of the worlds the soldier undertakes be they so base or vile, and imports to them the golden spark of transcendent purpose."
— Lorgar Aurelian, Primarch of the Word Bearers
As interesting as I find discussions regarding morality in war, Rule #2 people. Unless Slaanesh is dropping these a-bombs can you take it somewhere else?
That's the cover to Tome of Corruption from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. The RPG's really do get some of the best art, don't they? There's another one with a bunch of Tzeentch cultists summoning a Horror that I thought was awesome, but I can't find it online, sadly.
I always pictured Slaanesh cults as generally starting one of two ways:
1) Escapism. Poor or rich, people start dabbling because they feel they're lives suck, and a little drugs and kinky sex helps ease the pain, relieve the stress, and take their mind off their problems. They figure it's just harmless fun until their tastes start to get more and more extreme and the urges get harder and harder to resist... Before long they're deep in the depths of addiction, and Slaanesh has his/her hooks in them good.
2) Ambition. Someone, or a group of someones, is obsessed with being really good at... something. Could be anything. Becoming a great musician, writer, cook, fighter, whatever. They just really crave being the best, along with the fame, respect and recognition that come with it. So they either learn about Slaanesh themselves, or one of Slaanesh's followers approaches them in disguise. Either way, they cut a deal. They get the extra focus, energy, poise, creativity, etc, they need and start pursuing their ambition like crazy. They grow famous and beloved. At the same time, their new master starts to twist their minds. Meanwhile, their fanclub also gets corrupted and becomes totally obsessed with Slaanesh's new champion. This type of cult would be the most likely way to explore the "non-sex and drugs" side of Slaanesh.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
To answer MarsNZ, that's where the "unnatural eldritch god" part of the equation comes in. Slaanesh worshipers don't OD because Slaanesh sustains them, and they tend to become abusive deviants because that's the direction Slaanesh nudges them in. Remember, there's a supernatural effect happening here, so real world logic doesn't entirely apply.
Fair enough, good point. Plus this is the 41st millenium, apply as much handwavium as necessary
Cheesy petes, there's a lot of rape in this thread.
Call me squeamish but I'm on the side of the fence that focusing on depictions of sexual violence for Slaaneshi fiction is probably not necessary OR interesting. Like has been said before, lots of fodder for Slaanesh stories beyond just surprise buttsexing a planet.
But seriously she really has no meaning if she is just about pleasure. Pleasure what?
Wrong. God of Excess. And Excess means more than just sex. And people take 'pleasure' in many ways that don't involve sex.
Slaanesh is more equatable to the Christian Devil. Tempts and rewards you for doing evil deeds, and doing whatever it takes to achieve your goals. Also allowing you to bask in general sin. Striving to be perfect at something, is also Slannesh in nature. Whatever it is you're doing that is vile or indulgent, tends to fuel Slaanesh.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/09 16:41:51
Poly Ranger wrote: To be fair Nanking, whilst being utterly abhorrent, pales in comparison to the Mongol invasion of China and the rest of Asia. What happened in Nanking was also an accepted outcome of seige warfare in the medieval ages. Hell even as recently as the Napoleonic wars where the French armies raped and pillaged in the name of 'living off the land' and even the British at Badajoz, despite it being an allied town and any looters being hung by the provosts.
If we do look at the 20th century, I'd argue the Holocoust, the Carpet Bombing of Dresden, the atomic atrocities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Stalin's Purges and the genocide commited in the Bosnian war, amongst others, make for much more shocking reading. I am not saying that Nanking isn't absolutely horrendous, but if you want to lose your faith in humanity - there are even worse sources.
And lets not bring up current times with Assad, IS and Boko Haram.
I'm pretty sure Medieval Knights didn't hold competitions of how many prisoners of war you can decapitate before passing out from exhaustion like in Nanking.
Not exactly medieval knights, but the Mongols did some similar stuff... like, round prisoners up, every lieutenant is responsible for X people. Responsible meaning he has to kill X people and then chop of 1 of their ears (they used that for counting). Everyone taller than Y gets beheaded.
I'm sure our lovely medieval europe had comparable acts of violence.
Which obviously isn't an excuse for Nanking, there's pretty much no excuse for any of these things :(
Slaanesh is more about corruption and ruination than pleasure. Pleasure taken to extremes eventually burns you out. The pursuit of perfection takes you to the heights of hubris. Remember in the fluff the six circles of Slaanesh, each of which is a nasty surprise for the traveller that succumbs to temptation.
6. Avarice
5. Gluttony
4. Lust
3. Vainglory
2. Narcissism
1. Sloth
0. Emptiness, the hollow abyss of Slaanesh
It's very much like the model of Dante's Inferno with 'hell' as an inward (and downward) spiral.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/09 17:15:12
Slaanesh is about taking pleasure in ALL things even those that are not conventionally thought of as pleasurable or even those that may be maiming or fatal to the one experiencing it. Slaanesh's commandment of "Thou must enjoy!" is easily misinterpreted to mean sex and drugs but a true Slaanesh follower rapidly gets into more exotic or extreme experiences (both inflicted on others and self inflicted) in order to stave off the eternal ennui they feel as old experiences rapidly dull and become boring. I suppose why Slaanesh often gets portrayed as sexual sadism or drugs (and rendering down people for drugs or artwork) is aside from target audience reasons because a Champion of Slaanesh will be both someone that rises to power and dominance and one who views the life and welfare of others, even their own comrades and followers, as less important than their personal pleasure and urge to top their last experience.
The difference between Slaanesh and Khorne views of battle and killing since this is most relevant for 40K are quoted below:
Legions of Khorne
Excellence in battle is the highest form of worship for all of Khorne's followers. To fight in one of his Daemonic Legions is an honour to which all his servants aspire. Those rewarded by this privilege treat the occasion with the utmost gravity. Death is a serious business, and death in a Legion doubly so, for are not the eyes of Khorne always upon his most trusted servants? That Slaaneshi followers should treat warfare, the most sincere form of Khorne-worship, as just another pleasurable experience is infuriating. Battle in all its forms is a sacred ritual to Khorne's servants. Before each battle a ritual dedicates the blood of the slain, enemies and friends alike, to the Blood God
A Daemon Legion of Khorne is a fearsome and terrible sight. Its troops are dressed quite literally, to kill, adorned in Khorne's hues of red and black, the colours of blood and death. Their appearance is strictly that of soldiers, for only if they are unencumbered by frippery can they kill properly in Khorne's name. His Legionnaires carry this to extremes, with almost identical armour of red, black, and brass. Their expressions of deadly and murderous intent are broken only when they kill, as they smile grimly at sending another gift of blood to their dark lord.
-p. 182, Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness
Legions of Slaanesh
Slaanesh and his servants indulge in war: it is yet another pleasure to be sampled, not a serious business or test of strength. War is simply a game, part of the greater ritual, and Slaanesh is always the first to insist upon elaborate conditions and rituals before the Legions give battle.
The followers of Slaanesh seek gratification of the senses in all things. Battle is merely another method of finding a new warped pleasure. For Slaanesh's servants the thrills of battle are there to be joyfully experienced and repeated. Slaaneshi Daemons and mortal warriors delight in causing pain and killing; their wanton slaughter is spurred to greater heights by the pleasure they find in bloodshed.
The Slaaneshi attitude to battle and death is reflected in the Legion's appearance. Its troops parade in frivolous colours and clashing patterns, fantastic jewels and flamboyant costumes. The whole impression is that of a costume ball or masque rather than one of battle. The demeanour of a Slaaneshi Legion is equally perverse. Its Daemons and warriors shriek obscene jokes to each other, disport themselves with the dead and laugh with pleasure even as their own lives are taken. Any sensation, is after all, to be experienced and enjoyed. To express horror is a dreadful failing, one that is sure to be punished by the Lord of Pleasure.
-p. 185, Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/09 17:15:20
While Slaanesh isn't all about sex, there's no denying that sex is the most widespread and easily accesible pleasure. Every human being in 40k is capable of experincecing sexual pleasure whereas the requirements for the pleasure of being an artist or whatever is not going to be available for a lot of people living in hive cities. Rape, while a horrible and unforgivable crime in every possible way, is the most cost efficient way for a Slaaneshi follower to get off, ergo it's likely the most common place one.
While a cultist leader may be all about the delights of murder and jewels and whatnot, you're average downtrodden cultist is going to be a lot more basic in their desires, and Slaanesh will be all to happy to indulge them.
Excellence in battle is the highest form of worship for all of Khorne's followers. To fight in one of his Daemonic Legions is an honour to which all his servants aspire. Those rewarded by this privilege treat the occasion with the utmost gravity. Death is a serious business, and death in a Legion doubly so, for are not the eyes of Khorne always upon his most trusted servants? That Slaaneshi followers should treat warfare, the most sincere form of Khorne-worship, as just another pleasurable experience is infuriating. Battle in all its forms is a sacred ritual to Khorne's servants. Before each battle a ritual dedicates the blood of the slain, enemies and friends alike, to the Blood God
A Daemon Legion of Khorne is a fearsome and terrible sight. Its troops are dressed quite literally, to kill, adorned in Khorne's hues of red and black, the colours of blood and death. Their appearance is strictly that of soldiers, for only if they are unencumbered by frippery can they kill properly in Khorne's name. His Legionnaires carry this to extremes, with almost identical armour of red, black, and brass. Their expressions of deadly and murderous intent are broken only when they kill, as they smile grimly at sending another gift of blood to their dark lord.
-p. 182, Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness
Legions of Slaanesh
Slaanesh and his servants indulge in war: it is yet another pleasure to be sampled, not a serious business or test of strength. War is simply a game, part of the greater ritual, and Slaanesh is always the first to insist upon elaborate conditions and rituals before the Legions give battle.
The followers of Slaanesh seek gratification of the senses in all things. Battle is merely another method of finding a new warped pleasure. For Slaanesh's servants the thrills of battle are there to be joyfully experienced and repeated. Slaaneshi Daemons and mortal warriors delight in causing pain and killing; their wanton slaughter is spurred to greater heights by the pleasure they find in bloodshed.
The Slaaneshi attitude to battle and death is reflected in the Legion's appearance. Its troops parade in frivolous colours and clashing patterns, fantastic jewels and flamboyant costumes. The whole impression is that of a costume ball or masque rather than one of battle. The demeanour of a Slaaneshi Legion is equally perverse. Its Daemons and warriors shriek obscene jokes to each other, disport themselves with the dead and laugh with pleasure even as their own lives are taken. Any sensation, is after all, to be experienced and enjoyed. To express horror is a dreadful failing, one that is sure to be punished by the Lord of Pleasure.
-p. 185, Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness
Ooh, this is some good stuff. It also helps clarify why Khorne hates Slaanesh so much, something that always kind of puzzled me, since I felt like Tzeentch was a more natural adversary for Khorne. Realm of Chaos had some of the best Chaos fluff GW has ever written. It's really a shame they don't reuse it more, since they reprint other fluff in new codices all the time.
While Slaanesh isn't all about sex, there's no denying that sex is the most widespread and easily accesible pleasure. Every human being in 40k is capable of experincecing sexual pleasure whereas the requirements for the pleasure of being an artist or whatever is not going to be available for a lot of people living in hive cities. Rape, while a horrible and unforgivable crime in every possible way, is the most cost efficient way for a Slaaneshi follower to get off, ergo it's likely the most common place one.
While a cultist leader may be all about the delights of murder and jewels and whatnot, you're average downtrodden cultist is going to be a lot more basic in their desires, and Slaanesh will be all to happy to indulge them.
Um, actually the most "cost efficient" way to indulge in pleasure would be consensual sex between Slaaneshi cult members, as that wouldn't get the law/vigilante justice after them. But any Slaanesh cult worth its salt is going to have at least one member who has access to drugs, good food, or any other exotic thing that will draw people in. That's the appeal. They've got pleasures that are hard to obtain otherwise. Any goon can commit rape, Slaanesh offers rarer, more appealing excesses.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/09 18:09:49
Poly Ranger wrote: To be fair Nanking, whilst being utterly abhorrent, pales in comparison to the Mongol invasion of China and the rest of Asia. What happened in Nanking was also an accepted outcome of seige warfare in the medieval ages. Hell even as recently as the Napoleonic wars where the French armies raped and pillaged in the name of 'living off the land' and even the British at Badajoz, despite it being an allied town and any looters being hung by the provosts.
If we do look at the 20th century, I'd argue the Holocoust, the Carpet Bombing of Dresden, the atomic atrocities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Stalin's Purges and the genocide commited in the Bosnian war, amongst others, make for much more shocking reading. I am not saying that Nanking isn't absolutely horrendous, but if you want to lose your faith in humanity - there are even worse sources.
And lets not bring up current times with Assad, IS and Boko Haram.
I'm sorry but there seems to be a recent trend of hand wringing over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and it really makes me angry.
1) It wasn't just the Rape of Nanking. The Japanese military forced hundreds of thousands of Korean women into sex slavery ("comfort women"), herded thousands of Chinese up to torture to death for mostly aimless science experiments in Unit 731, and were ridiculously brutal to prisoners of war. These weren't isolated attrocities like can be found in any war, they were Japan's war policy. It's no exaggeration to say that the Showa era Japanese leadership was at least as bad as the Nazis. Yet nobody wrings hands over the bombing of Berlin, German villagers being starved, or the things the Soviets did during their invasion of Germany, and Nazis are killed for laughs all the time in movies and videogames. I guess the difference is that Japan suppresses information about their country's atrocities in their text books, and we don't learn about them in the west either. Therefore people think the Showa era was just fine and dandy, and why did we need to fight so hard to STOP it, anyway?
2) A big part of the reason for the A-Bombs being dropped was because a land invasion of Japan had projected casualties in the MILLIONS for both sides. And that very much included Japanese civilians, through the Showa government's own fault. They were training schoolkids to be child soldiers and encouraging peasants to be suicide bombers with propaganda saying Americans would EAT THEM if they caught them. The whole plan was to make the fighting as horrific, with as much death as possible, so the Americans would negotiate a truce that would leave the Showa government in power and hopefully with some of the countries they invaded. Once they realized that they couldn't hope to fight back against the A-bomb, they surrendered.
Were the bombings horrific? No doubt, but how would you have dealt with the Showa government if it were you? Let them keep brutalizing Chinese, Phillipinos, and Koreans? Launch a land invasion with more deaths on both sides?
Don't think that this rant means I hate Japanese people. I have Japanese friends, and l love them. My point is, it was a complicated situation, and a HUGE portion of the blame for what happened rests on the Showa military leaders who pushed things to that point. So when it gets dumbed down to "as bad as the Holocaust" and "mean Americans wiping out Japanese for no reason" I get a little testy.
Anyway, we're way off topic. To the OP- no, no, a thousand times no, although you're probably just trolling anyway.
I did actually bring up the carpet bombing of Dresden as my first example so I am not forgetting what happened to Germany was horrendous. And I aren't making it black and white. I know full well why the atomic bombs were dropped, to save more lives in the long run, and also to demonstrate to the USSR that the USA had a working atomic bomb. But that doesn't make the obliteration of 2 entire cities of innocent civilians something that can just be bypassed with excuses. It was a horrific war crime that has never officially been acknowledged as such. Those civilians were not the ones responsible for brutalising the other Pacific nations.
The reason why I say Nanking doesn't shock as much as the others (still shocks though don't get me wrong) is because it had happened time and time again as war policy down the ages, from Ancient Rome, through the maurauding Norse and Danes to every Medieval European nation to have existed. Rape, slavery and torture were nothing new, although they can never be excused. The thing that is shocking about it is the scale and that it happened in the 20th century. When it comes to the scale, nothing outstrips the Mongol expansion and the only things which come close are Stalin's Purges and the Holocaust.
Actually, there were millions of survivors from the nukes. Most of them died from radiation poisoning, but still. It wasn't an entire city annihilated.
But seriously she really has no meaning if she is just about pleasure. Pleasure what?
Wrong. God of Excess. And Excess means more than just sex. And people take 'pleasure' in many ways that don't involve sex.
Slaanesh is more equatable to the Christian Devil. Tempts and rewards you for doing evil deeds, and doing whatever it takes to achieve your goals. Also allowing you to bask in general sin. Striving to be perfect at something, is also Slannesh in nature. Whatever it is you're doing that is vile or indulgent, tends to fuel Slaanesh.
A huge part of the reason that a lot of Slaanesh lore focuses on pleasure is because people love pleasure, and thereby love going into excess with it (chems, sex, getting kickass massages, etc. etc.). There are many other things that you can go into excess, but pleasure is just one of the easiest to do, and therefore is one of the most common. Like I've stated previously, anybody who is obsessive in any way feeds Slaanesh - that includes 90% of Space Marines, 90% of Inquisitors, etc. etc. Humanity truly does feed Chaos with everything it does - from dying (Nurgle), to fighting Chaos (Khorne), to spending all of their time fighting Chaos (Slaanesh), to utilizing Astropaths and Psykers (Tzeentch).
Also, no. Slaanesh does not tempt you and reward you for doing evil deeds. Slaanesh tempts you to, and rewards you for, doiing something as much as humanly possible, be that becoming a klepto, body builder, or TV addict.
Excellence in battle is the highest form of worship for all of Khorne's followers. To fight in one of his Daemonic Legions is an honour to which all his servants aspire. Those rewarded by this privilege treat the occasion with the utmost gravity. Death is a serious business, and death in a Legion doubly so, for are not the eyes of Khorne always upon his most trusted servants? That Slaaneshi followers should treat warfare, the most sincere form of Khorne-worship, as just another pleasurable experience is infuriating. Battle in all its forms is a sacred ritual to Khorne's servants. Before each battle a ritual dedicates the blood of the slain, enemies and friends alike, to the Blood God
A Daemon Legion of Khorne is a fearsome and terrible sight. Its troops are dressed quite literally, to kill, adorned in Khorne's hues of red and black, the colours of blood and death. Their appearance is strictly that of soldiers, for only if they are unencumbered by frippery can they kill properly in Khorne's name. His Legionnaires carry this to extremes, with almost identical armour of red, black, and brass. Their expressions of deadly and murderous intent are broken only when they kill, as they smile grimly at sending another gift of blood to their dark lord.
-p. 182, Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness
Legions of Slaanesh
Slaanesh and his servants indulge in war: it is yet another pleasure to be sampled, not a serious business or test of strength. War is simply a game, part of the greater ritual, and Slaanesh is always the first to insist upon elaborate conditions and rituals before the Legions give battle.
The followers of Slaanesh seek gratification of the senses in all things. Battle is merely another method of finding a new warped pleasure. For Slaanesh's servants the thrills of battle are there to be joyfully experienced and repeated. Slaaneshi Daemons and mortal warriors delight in causing pain and killing; their wanton slaughter is spurred to greater heights by the pleasure they find in bloodshed.
The Slaaneshi attitude to battle and death is reflected in the Legion's appearance. Its troops parade in frivolous colours and clashing patterns, fantastic jewels and flamboyant costumes. The whole impression is that of a costume ball or masque rather than one of battle. The demeanour of a Slaaneshi Legion is equally perverse. Its Daemons and warriors shriek obscene jokes to each other, disport themselves with the dead and laugh with pleasure even as their own lives are taken. Any sensation, is after all, to be experienced and enjoyed. To express horror is a dreadful failing, one that is sure to be punished by the Lord of Pleasure.
-p. 185, Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness
Ooh, this is some good stuff. It also helps clarify why Khorne hates Slaanesh so much, something that always kind of puzzled me, since I felt like Tzeentch was a more natural adversary for Khorne. Realm of Chaos had some of the best Chaos fluff GW has ever written. It's really a shame they don't reuse it more, since they reprint other fluff in new codices all the time.
While Slaanesh isn't all about sex, there's no denying that sex is the most widespread and easily accesible pleasure. Every human being in 40k is capable of experincecing sexual pleasure whereas the requirements for the pleasure of being an artist or whatever is not going to be available for a lot of people living in hive cities. Rape, while a horrible and unforgivable crime in every possible way, is the most cost efficient way for a Slaaneshi follower to get off, ergo it's likely the most common place one.
While a cultist leader may be all about the delights of murder and jewels and whatnot, you're average downtrodden cultist is going to be a lot more basic in their desires, and Slaanesh will be all to happy to indulge them.
Um, actually the most "cost efficient" way to indulge in pleasure would be consensual sex between Slaaneshi cult members, as that wouldn't get the law/vigilante justice after them. But any Slaanesh cult worth its salt is going to have at least one member who has access to drugs, good food, or any other exotic thing that will draw people in. That's the appeal. They've got pleasures that are hard to obtain otherwise. Any goon can commit rape, Slaanesh offers rarer, more appealing excesses.
He's talking about the most cost efficient way to indulge in maximum pleasure. Sure it might be easier to just screw some of your fellow cultists, but they might be unwilling to do some little things, like scream and legitimately beg you to stop (which, for Slaanesh, obviously means keep going, and heightens the experience).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/09 19:01:13
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
While Slaanesh isn't all about sex, there's no denying that sex is the most widespread and easily accesible pleasure. Every human being in 40k is capable of experincecing sexual pleasure whereas the requirements for the pleasure of being an artist or whatever is not going to be available for a lot of people living in hive cities. Rape, while a horrible and unforgivable crime in every possible way, is the most cost efficient way for a Slaaneshi follower to get off, ergo it's likely the most common place one.
While a cultist leader may be all about the delights of murder and jewels and whatnot, you're average downtrodden cultist is going to be a lot more basic in their desires, and Slaanesh will be all to happy to indulge them.
Um, actually the most "cost efficient" way to indulge in pleasure would be consensual sex between Slaaneshi cult members, as that wouldn't get the law/vigilante justice after them. But any Slaanesh cult worth its salt is going to have at least one member who has access to drugs, good food, or any other exotic thing that will draw people in. That's the appeal. They've got pleasures that are hard to obtain otherwise. Any goon can commit rape, Slaanesh offers rarer, more appealing excesses.
You're assuming that everyone within a Slaanesh cult is going to be there willingly. Slaanesh is chaos, by its nature it's uncontrollable and without order. A slaanesh cult worth its salt will likely face resistance by Imperial loyalists. The cult will try to convert them by force, this will include slavery and trafficking on a huge scale. The only justice there'll be will be security guards outside the sex slave markets. In the modern world we see armies like ISIL engaging in large scale child sex slavery and even western armies having their own secret rape-rings among the higher ups.
Large scale consenual sex would be a better long term alternative but then it wouldn't be chaotic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/09 19:06:19
Desubot wrote: I always though of it as
Slannesh: Muse(inspiration) <-> Obsession
Tzeench: Hope <-> ???
Nurgle: Peace <-> Entropy/or sloth
Corn: Pride <-> Rage
Similar but not mutually exclusive ya know?
Spoiler:
Salt for the Salt Throne!
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
I don't think Slaanesh can really be called the god of Excess. Chaos gods are based on emotion. Excess isn't an emotion. Rather, Chaos followers tend to take the emotions that their gods embody/desire and take them to extremes.
Khorne followers take bloodlust to excess. They take concepts like martial perfection and militarism to extremes as well, living lives of rigid self denial, as opposed to Slaaneshi self indulgence.
Tzeentch followers take ambition to the extreme. Ahriman ambitiously created the rubric, now he ambitiously seeks to end it. Although ambition can certainly be a good thing, it can cause a person lots of agitation.
Nurgle is the opposite of Tzeentch. He takes stagnation to the extreme. Many who fall to Nurgle do so because they fear death. A Nurgle follower is the opposite of a Tzeentch follower, they aren't really upset by much, so much so that they aren't really bothered by death and decay, because that's just the natural way of things, everything dies.
What does Slaanesh take to extremes? Pleasure? Lust? I would say sensation and particularly pleasure-in-sensation; of satisfaction, delight, ecstasy, feelings of transcendence and so on and so forth.
And Pride, Vanity, and Envy go with this too. When you start to view the universe as existing solely to give you sensations, well, narcissism follows suit. Having your ego stroked can be just as pleasurable as...well, you know.
Delicate Swarm wrote: What does Slaanesh take to extremes? Pleasure? Lust? I would say sensation and particularly pleasure-in-sensation; of satisfaction, delight, ecstasy, feelings of transcendence and so on and so forth.
And Pride, Vanity, and Envy go with this too. When you start to view the universe as existing solely to give you sensations, well, narcissism follows suit. Having your ego stroked can be just as pleasurable as...well, you know.
I think the words you're looking for are hedonism and narcissism.
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek)
I always thought of hedonism as being more of a school of thought that emphasizes pleasure as the highest good. Certainly, Slaanesh followers could be considered Hedonists of a particularly non-ethical variety, but really considering Slaanesh as Hedonistic is kind of like calling Tzeentch Intellectual.
And I did use the word Narcissism
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/14 08:07:50
Slaanesh has got to go. Not because it's too dark or adult themed or anything, but it's time that Chaos lost something that hurt. They are this random faction that can't loose and always exists, threatening something. That's so boring. Killing one of the Gods brings them more fully into the universe as a faction that can win, or be destroyed.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Well I don't think the battle company would do much to bolster the ranks of my eldar army so no.
Nonsense. The Battle Company box is perfect for filling out your ranks of aspect warriors with a large contingent from the Screaming Baldies shrine.
Angel Exterminatus has some just beautiful examples of the Emperor's Children in action. I leave it on my bookshelves now.
"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has thought and purpose that functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bioengineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if is aware of us at all it must know us only as Prey."
Hive Fleet Grootslang 15000+
Servants of the Void 2000+
5000 
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) 
Hive Fleet Grootslang