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axisofentropy wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
I read it as a check to make sure the model is permitted to fire, but not at any specific target. The only time the target matters is after you pick who the firing tank will be.

but they all fire as a unit after the target is selected

No, The squadron fires a single line breaker shot instead of firing normally. You are giving up the entire squadron's shooting to make a single shot. After you nominate one model in the squadron to be the firer the other members of the squadron will effectively not fire at all.

 jackflashultra wrote:

Breton wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I don't know about that, Breton, as one side has supported their interpretation using Rule Quotes.

Quoted Rule tend to be considered very 'strong' evidence when determining if a specific interpretation is 'more correct' then another.

Actually both sides have quoted rules in support. And both suggest a different slant in the reading that both make sense but are mutually exclusive.

Very true but I think it all just comes down to whether or not the model has LOS. Since GW seems a lot more black and white about LOS then most other rules it seems.

And whether they have LOS to what.


Everybody agrees the Vindicators have to be able to fire. There are at least two different ideas as to what that means. Fire at the same (selected) target? Fire because they're not shaken/stunned/etc?

Breton wrote:

Everybody agrees the Vindicators have to be able to fire. There are at least two different ideas as to what that means. Fire at the same (selected) target?

"Which models can fire. Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot."

There is not two different ideas. Or if there is, it's because one idea isn't using the rules.

Being able to fire is strictly depending on having LoS and range to a model in the target unit from the firing model.

Breton wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I don't know about that, Breton, as one side has supported their interpretation using Rule Quotes.

Quoted Rule tend to be considered very 'strong' evidence when determining if a specific interpretation is 'more correct' then another.

Actually both sides have quoted rules in support. And both suggest a different slant in the reading that both make sense but are mutually exclusive.

Very true but I think it all just comes down to whether or not the model has LOS. Since GW seems a lot more black and white about LOS then most other rules it seems.

Breton,
I must have missed the Rule quote allowing Models to fire their weapons even if they do not meet the line of sight or range requirements... can you please repost it for me?

Oh sure, it's in the post questioning whether the target choice is involved there on the first page.

Select Unit

Select Target

Select Weapon

Select unit is easy. It's the vindicators.

Select Target is the first hurdle. If you select unit A, but the other two COULD fire at Unit B does that still count as "can fire for the next step? Being debated.

Select Weapon runs into a similar issue as Select Target. If you select this LineBreaker, then the other two can't fire their Demolisher Canon negating the legality of the Linebreaker that makes them unable to fire in a catch-22.

Do I think they all should have to be in range of the selected target? Yeah, probably, though based more in logic and HIWPI not any quoted rule. Do I think it's written that way, or intended to be written that way? Maybe, maybe not. Do I think the people suggesting only that the weapon can't be prohibited from firing by things like crew shaken have enough ground to stand on? Yeah

Breton,
Again... do you have an actual Rule quote allowing us to over-turn this very important basic Rule:
Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.
All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit. If a model cannot shoot at the same target as the other models in its unit then it cannot shoot at all in that phase.
Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more. Once a model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase.
- Which Models Can Fire

Your shortened version of the shooting sequence does nothing to over-turn a requirement that the Model must have line of sight to the nominated target in order to fire it's weapon. It is not even a good attempt at misdirection, as the very Rule being quoted covers the possibility of shooting at non-nominated targets... aka: FORBIDDEN! Every situation you are putting forth where the weapon 'can be fired' are ones where it would be illegal to fire the weapon, meaning it can not be fired as far as the Rules are concerned. Without a more specific Rule allowing the Models to ignore Line of Sight or Range requirements as part of firing the weapon... they can not fire.

Just out of curiosity, for Eldar players - Do you play that Fire Prisms all need LoS as well?

 Happyjew wrote:
Just out of curiosity, for Eldar players - Do you play that Fire Prisms all need LoS as well?

The Fire Prisms all fire out of the single designated model.
They all need to be able to fire at that single Fire Prism, and it re-directs the fire.
Or, that was the fluff behind it. It was back in 4-5 ed, 2 codexes ago.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/117247.page

Lellindil wrote:
basicaly you have the geared up one shooting and the other one deployed out of LOS of the enemy but w/ LOS to the other prism.

With Vindicators, I don't think firing shells into the tank in front would have the same effect.

Well the fluff for Vindicators, as I interpred it, is that all 3 fire at the same spot, therefore creating that gigantic explosion that simply razes everything. No cover against a nuke, after all.

I interpreted the fluff for the Fire Prisms as being that the supporting two fire into the focusing crystal of the main one, creating one supercharged beam. There, it would make sense that only one would need to see the actual target.

The vindicators by contrast are just saturating an area with demolisher shells, and so they would all need to actually have a clear shot at the target.

The Eldar tanks do have slightly different wording: "for each other Fire Prism in the squadron that could have otherwise fired it's prism cannon normally". But an argument could be made that the end effect is the same - that a Fire Prism that doesn't have LOS on the target cannot "otherwise fire normally".

The fluff of whats happening does not have to make sense and often does not in 40k. With out using fluff to justify it, what are the actual differences between the Fire Prisms all firing out of the single designated model and the Vindicators doing the same thing?

It is my contention that the linebreaker shot modifies the the 1st step of the shooting process. In addition to picking a unit to fire, you must pick a model in that unit to be the firing model. How can you check range/line of sight for each of the models in the unit at this point as we have not yet selected a target.

Where are the rules for the fire prism lets just do a direct comparison

Linked Fire: If a Fire Prism squadron contains more than one model, the squadron can link
its prism cannons instead of firing normally. Nominate one model in the squadron as the
firer; the other models in the squadron cannot fire their prism cannons this turn. The firer
shoots with its prism cannon as normal, adding 1 to the Strength (to a maximum of 10) and
subtracting 1 from the AP (to a minimum of 1) for each other Fire Prism in the squadron that
could have otherwise fired its prism cannon normally. For example, a squadron of 3 Fire
Prisms, 1 of which is affected by a Crew Stunned result and can only fire Snap Shots, could
fire a single focussed shot at Strength 8 AP

That's the quote. Worded a little differently than the vindicator one i believe.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
I interpreted the fluff for the Fire Prisms as being that the supporting two fire into the focusing crystal of the main one, creating one supercharged beam. There, it would make sense that only one would need to see the actual target.

The vindicators by contrast are just saturating an area with demolisher shells, and so they would all need to actually have a clear shot at the target.

The Eldar tanks do have slightly different wording: "for each other Fire Prism in the squadron that could have otherwise fired it's prism cannon normally". But an argument could be made that the end effect is the same - that a Fire Prism that doesn't have LOS on the target cannot "otherwise fire normally".

Which is kind of my point.

The last time I ran multiple Fire Prisms was the 4th edition codex where the contributing Prisms needed LoS to the firer. Now it requires all Prisms to be able to fire normally. If you don't have range/LoS, can you fire normally?

 Happyjew wrote:
If you don't have range/LoS, can you fire normally?

No, as the rules already quoted in this thread have unarguably shown.

Do vindicators even need line of site? I thought they barrage...

greytalon666 wrote:
Do vindicators even need line of site? I thought they barrage...

They are not barrage.

Alright just got home and read the codex ... oddly enough it says that you nominate one Vindicator in the squadron as the firer, and the firer's demolisher cannon changes its weapon type ... blah blah blah. So you really only need LOS from one Vindicator and the others just kinda hang out.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
Alright just got home and read the codex ... oddly enough it says that you nominate one Vindicator in the squadron as the firer, and the firer's demolisher cannon changes its weapon type ... blah blah blah. So you really only need LOS from one Vindicator and the others just kinda hang out.

You're missing the following:

If this unit contains three Vindicators that can all fire their demolisher cannons, the squadron can fire a single Linebreaker Bombardment instead of firing normally.

Can a Vindicator fire its demolisher cannon if its target is out of range and out of line of sight? If no, then the squadron would be unable to make use of the Linebreaker Bombardment special rule.

 Ghaz wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
Alright just got home and read the codex ... oddly enough it says that you nominate one Vindicator in the squadron as the firer, and the firer's demolisher cannon changes its weapon type ... blah blah blah. So you really only need LOS from one Vindicator and the others just kinda hang out.

You're missing the following:

If this unit contains three Vindicators that can all fire their demolisher cannons, the squadron can fire a single Linebreaker Bombardment instead of firing normally.

Can a Vindicator fire its demolisher cannon if its target is out of range and out of line of sight? If no, then the squadron would be unable to make use of the Linebreaker Bombardment special rule.

IMHO I think that is stating that the Demolisher cannon must not be unable to fire by either shaken/stun or from a weapon destroyed result.

That is how I read the RAW. It does very-much look that way.

RAI is leaning far more to the "single firing model with 2 other firing models" ruling, needing range and LOS for all.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
Alright just got home and read the codex ... oddly enough it says that you nominate one Vindicator in the squadron as the firer, and the firer's demolisher cannon changes its weapon type ... blah blah blah. So you really only need LOS from one Vindicator and the others just kinda hang out.

You're missing the following:

If this unit contains three Vindicators that can all fire their demolisher cannons, the squadron can fire a single Linebreaker Bombardment instead of firing normally.

Can a Vindicator fire its demolisher cannon if its target is out of range and out of line of sight? If no, then the squadron would be unable to make use of the Linebreaker Bombardment special rule.

IMHO I think that is stating that the Demolisher cannon must not be unable to fire by either shaken/stun or from a weapon destroyed result.

Based on what? Page and paragraph please. The rule requires that the three Vindicators can all fire their demolisher cannons. Can a Vindicator fire its demolisher cannon if its target is out of range and out of line of sight?

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
Alright just got home and read the codex ... oddly enough it says that you nominate one Vindicator in the squadron as the firer, and the firer's demolisher cannon changes its weapon type ... blah blah blah. So you really only need LOS from one Vindicator and the others just kinda hang out.

as stated they have to be able to fire, and the rules for who can fire are very clear

Nothing specifies that each Vindicator have to be able to shoot at this particular target. Wording says it has to be able to shoot at all (no weapon destroyed, no crew shaken, efc). Only then you can nominate ONE that fires. That one has to pass requirements to shoot at particular target (range, LOS, etc).
Why do you add additional meaning to simple wording?

 danyboy wrote:
Nothing specifies that each Vindicator have to be able to shoot at this particular target. Wording says it has to be able to shoot at all (no weapon destroyed, no crew shaken, efc). Only then you can nominate ONE that fires. That one has to pass requirements to shoot at particular target (range, LOS, etc).
Why do you add additional meaning to simple wording?

Yes actually something states exactly that. You can not fire a weapon that can not target a unit. That's very very clear. It could not be clearer. Or if you target a unit and the weapon is out of range it "can not shoot" is the exact wording


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If they wanted it to work the way that you are saying they'd have worded it like the fire prism section I quoted which clearly side steps those exact rules intentionally showing they are aware of this EXACT issue

 danyboy wrote:
Nothing specifies that each Vindicator have to be able to shoot at this particular target. Wording says it has to be able to shoot at all (no weapon destroyed, no crew shaken, efc). Only then you can nominate ONE that fires. That one has to pass requirements to shoot at particular target (range, LOS, etc).
Why do you add additional meaning to simple wording?

From 'Which Models Can Fire' in the rules for the Shooting phase:

Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.

Please provide the page and paragraph that supports your claims that the model can shoot if no enemy models in the target unit is found to be in range and line of sight, because the actual rules contradict your statement.

Actually after throurough reading I admit - you arecorrect.