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"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
He's partly the inspiration for CREED.
Churchill didn't come up with the ideas, but he signed off on most of the craziest gak ever pulled in military history.
Spoiler:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/27 21:54:50
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Just goes to show that speechcraft makes great leaders, not ability.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Nothing wrong with fan-theories as long as people reading them realise they are meshed with real work events.
However I don't believe The Emperor ever was "de powered" or in doubt of his immortality. All current fluff leads to him being an intentional creation.
I think the only time he has had his powers taxed is during the fight with Horus. Being that in a Horus Heresy novel Olius Pius notices the light generated by The Emperor is dimmed and/or different.
Whether that is a power drain or just his mood is another thing entirely.
BattulBruvaCat wrote: *Cough*
Actually, it's a lot older than that.
There was a Hittite empire that existed around 1600BC in Anatolia (modern-day Turkey, also where Emperor got "born" canonically) It's much closer to Imperial Aquilla than any other double-headed eagle sans Reichadler. It may, or may be not intentional, but if you think about it in terms of Wh40k lore, it shows that He has been around for long before us, collecting experience and guiding humanity through ages. Also, AFAIK, it's mentioned somewhere in Bible as one of symbols of Satan (considering Hittites were fighting Jews, it makes sense, as it's not only "TAKE THAT" in Old Testament). Think of it as you want.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Given that the Emperor is basically supposed to be every major conqueror and religious figure ever, the fact the Aquila is a widespread symbol makes sense in hindsight.
The real question here is, was he Hitler?
Considering Hitler's idiocy and lack of military intelligence (the Emperor had the millions of years of memories from the Shamans, not to mention the thousands of years of experience since he was born). If he was Hitler, then it clearly would have been because he wanted to stimulate global economy and technology development (this was the catalyst for the creation of the United Nations, as well as what caused the Great Depression to end, while also causing the Cold War and a massive technology race between Russia and the US).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/05 05:37:47
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Okay, my theory is that the Hitler persona is just one in a long line of attempts to save humanity by force. Whenever the Emperor found a fledgling empire, he waited until its next heir of promise was ready to take over, then took that heir's place.
My digital copy of the Lost and the Damned has been corrupted, and I can't seem to be able to get a new copy, so I'll have to do this by memory. In Realms of Chaos: the Lost and the Damned, it is stated that the Emperor did whatever was necessary to facilitate humanity's growth. Sometimes he would take up the persona of an Emperor or other ruler, sometimes he would take up the persona of a God, sometimes that of an adviser, etc. He never tried to take over humanity by force until after the Fall of Old Night, when he deemed it necessary for humanity's continued existence.
When "Caesar" "died" he decided to take a slightly different approach, and take the form of a religious figure to demonstrate the superiority of his creation. It was here he first ran into the Palestine jews, where he realised that their refusal to accept him as the Savior actually weakened him enough to be killed, and empowered the Chaos Gods.
Hahahaha...ha. The Emperor took on the role of Gods and religious leaders from Pharaohs to Saints, and, I have a huge issue with what you said about Jesus. Jesus had dozens of thousands of followers, and they would have been feeding him power from the Warp the whole time, whilst, before, he was relying solely on the might of the tens of thousands of Shamans (very powerful, very skilled Psykers who basically did what the Emperor did before it was cool). Also, him being killed would most definitely not empower the Chaos Gods. The Emperor was trying to combat them from his very inception by stabilizing humanity whilst also facilitating its growth and development. However, humanity is not the only species that contributes energies to the Warp, merely the catalyst that destabilized the Warp, and caused for the Chaos Gods to become Chaos Gods instead of non-sentient entities.
He reincarnated himself and flashed out. His other conquesys included the likes of the Byzantine and Russian Empires, as well as Napolean. Each time he went just far enough to push humanity to accepting him, but he wasn't willing to go further and risk total destruction of the race. He's not responsible for all empires. The German, French and British Empires sprouted on their own, and by extension, America.
The vast majority of empires had little to do with the Emperor, though his influence is everywhere.The Emperor's Empires always served some purpose that would further humanity's needs.
So, in 1914 he decided to take a time out and consider why humanity still refused. He decided that the cause was his impersonations were all of high-birth, Caesar for example, or royal family. He decided the solution was therefore to pick someone from the rank and file. After all, the last time he did that, he found himself the object of worship that spread like wildfire and empowered him and depowered the Ruinous Powers. So he found himself a bitter young Austrian painter turned soldier, decorated for valour but left disfigured and blind. He healed young Adolf and pointed him towards takeover, planning to take a back seat, but when he realised how stupid Adolf was, he knew he had to take charge. Hitler got himself arrested, was a terrible orator, overall a weak man. The Emperor killed him, disintegrated his body and took his place, writing Mein Kampf and simulateously mentally pushing the prison to release him early. The rest is history.
No. Just... No. Hitler was always a very capable orator and leader, his insanity was probably always there, but the stress of leading an empire likely just caused him to spiral out of control and was what led to his prejudices get in the way of winning a war.
However, he still had the Jewish problem, to be blunt. Practically speaking, the continued refusal by the Jews to accept Jesus as the Savior, at least in the traditional sense, was having a powerful effect on the Emperor. As he was, literally, the savior, and Jesus, their belief was causing him to loose(*lose*) power rapidly.
The belief in Jesus Christ would not fuel the Emperor, it would likely fuel a gestalt being in the Warp, a "slumbering God", if you will. I'll have to quote Lost and the Damned for this one "severed from its psychic link to the material body, the shadow-self [soul] drifts in the Realm of Chaos. As it does so, some of its energies are dispersed into the general flow, but the strongest and most distinctive mental traits remain. The countless shadow-selves of the dead flow together because they are mutually attracted by their common traits. Thus the [souls] of deceased warriors retain their most warlike traits, and flow together into a huge co-joined entity." Essentially, whenever somebody dies, his beliefs and energies seperate from his being and join with similar beliefs and energies from other souls.
In desperation he turned his attention to solving the problem but regretably came up with one solution. Having to choose between dying and condemning humanity to the Dark Gods' whims, whiping out a few million, he chose what he believed the lesser of two great evils. However, he soon came to realise the combined horror of the entire race was much worse, not only depowering him so much he no longer could command the same military expertise that saw him win the battles of early WWII, but also, he felt very human, very real, guilt.
Egh, no. Don't get me wrong, the warlike energies and the horror from the war would feed the Chaos Gods, but they wouldn't weaken the Emperor. Honestly, I have no problem with the Emperor comitting genocide, however, a few million souls would be naught but a drop of water in the Sea of Souls.
At the close of WWII, he then had another human emotion: fear. He was so depowered by the combined animosity of all humanity that he feared even his immortality was in question. So he decided to pass his seed on to a human surrogate so in the chance he was permanantly killed, there might still be a chance. Alas, his immortality did not dissappear, and the Russians shot the surrogate mother along with him.
The Emperor has had a metric asston of children over the years, these are known as the "Sensei". They have some of his power, but not his memories or infallibility. Although, if the Emperor were to be weakened sufficiently, it does seem likely that some kind of Greater Daemon or swarm of lesser Daemons would consume his soul as they had so many of the Shamans before him (this was actually what caused his creation, as the Shamans believed one gestalt being would be too powerful to be eaten before it could reincarnate).
Now, with humanity's hatred for Hitler,he became so weak he couldn't just restart as before. He realised then that humanity could never be taken over by force, it must instead choose its own salvation, which he must offer. But so depowered, he had to wait Millenia, waiting for the memory of Adolf Hitler to fade completely. In the meantime he worked small measures of his power. Deflect catastrophes in Tzeentch's plan. He researched the Mayan calender and discovered it was actually a warning, and the Mayans were in fact a Chaos cult. With half of humanity fearing the world, their belief gave him enough strength to hold off what would become the Long Night in the year 2012, able to push it back each time it arose.
Honestly, I like your Mayan idea. However, your idea that "humanity could never be taken over by force" was disproven by the Emperor's successful Great Crusade.
It that time he continued research into genetics and the soul, trying to find ways to pass his mission onto a worthy successor should be chance, he ever be truly destroyed. Eventually, humanity deteriorated so far that he was able to try again at conquest to save humanity, this time, not forcing humans to fight, but using his Thunder Warriors. And this time, he did not just slay and conquer, he offered a chance to come with him and claimed their destiny among the stars. And the rest is 40k history.
The Emperor already had millions of years of experience from the Shamans (he had all of their memories from when they reincarnated), and knew more about the soul and the Warp in general than any man or woman could ever dream of knowing. Genetics research makes sense, however, he already had many incredibly powerful children, as I've mentioned eary, known as Sensei. They possess his seeming immortality, as well as some of his psychic powers, but still remain human (not as powerful as the Astartes). The Thunder Warriors, and subsequent Astartes, were the culmination of tens of thousands of years of research and learning, so you are right on that front. However, the Emperor never actually tried to rule humanity directly until the Unification of Terra, when he deemed it absolutely necessary for humanity's survival.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Tens of thousands, perhaps, not millions. Humanity isn't that old, even in M40. On the outside, you could maybe get close to 1 million years (depending on how loose a translation of "humanity" you want to go with).
Homo sapiens sapiens, that genetic strain that is modern Man, is only 200,000 years old or so right now, in 2015. It's only another 38,000 years to 40k from here.
Of course, if you get into Hyborean/Atlantean theory, then, well, things get weird. Though, in that case, the Emperor was definitely Conan.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: Tens of thousands, perhaps, not millions. Humanity isn't that old, even in M40. On the outside, you could maybe get close to 1 million years (depending on how loose a translation of "humanity" you want to go with).
Homo sapiens sapiens, that genetic strain that is modern Man, is only 200,000 years old or so right now, in 2015. It's only another 38,000 years to 40k from here.
Of course, if you get into Hyborean/Atlantean theory, then, well, things get weird. Though, in that case, the Emperor was definitely Conan.
It was in Realms of Chaos: the Lost and the Damned. It gave the story of the Shamans, then said that "the New Man had the millions of years of memories of the Shamans". Or something like that. It might have been an exaggeration, but, the Emperor would have at least had tens of thousands of years of experience from the Shamans.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
That is because GW writers are not anthropologists, and probably believed, at the time, that Mankind was millions of years old.
It isn't, unless we want to believe that the Emperor is actually the amalgamation of some psychic near-apes (Homo Erectus or Homo Habilis or some such).
It would, however, explain a lot.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
"Millions of years of memories" do not have to be accrued in sequence in this circumstance. When the Emperor was created, it was by mass suicide.
"A million years of memories" could be the result of 62,500 shamans subsuming themselves into the gestalt at sixteen years of age. Most of the shaman were probably older than sixteen - the older the shamans, the less of them you need to get a million years of memories.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Psienesis wrote: That is because GW writers are not anthropologists, and probably believed, at the time, that Mankind was millions of years old.
It isn't, unless we want to believe that the Emperor is actually the amalgamation of some psychic near-apes (Homo Erectus or Homo Habilis or some such).
It would, however, explain a lot.
He is the amalgamation of shamans committing mass suicide, can do pretty much anything and battle 4 Chaos Gods at once. Is it so hard to believe he has access to the memories of the Shaman's ancestors, including non-human predecessors? Perhaps his recollection goes right back to the dawn of vertebrate animals.
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Psienesis wrote: That is because GW writers are not anthropologists, and probably believed, at the time, that Mankind was millions of years old.
It isn't, unless we want to believe that the Emperor is actually the amalgamation of some psychic near-apes (Homo Erectus or Homo Habilis or some such).
It would, however, explain a lot.
He is the amalgamation of shamans committing mass suicide, can do pretty much anything and battle 4 Chaos Gods at once. Is it so hard to believe he has access to the memories of the Shaman's ancestors, including non-human predecessors? Perhaps his recollection goes right back to the dawn of vertebrate animals.
Well, the Shamans retained all of the memories of all their past lives, so each Shaman likely had 10's of thousands of years of knowledge and experience, which would easily add up to millions of years.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
If we're considering that it includes all the years all of the shamans had lived in all of their lives, and that there were many thousands of them, then, yes, that makes sense.
It seems rather a bit of mental-gymnastics... not quite on par with the Kessel Run in Twelve Parsecs routine, but close.... trying to establish continuity between what was written and what actually happened, but it works.
Also, reincarnation of the sorts the Shamans supposedly did doesn't include animals. If it did, then the Emperor would have been a Xeno at some point, given statistical averages.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Psienesis wrote: If we're considering that it includes all the years all of the shamans had lived in all of their lives, and that there were many thousands of them, then, yes, that makes sense.
It seems rather a bit of mental-gymnastics... not quite on par with the Kessel Run in Twelve Parsecs routine, but close.... trying to establish continuity between what was written and what actually happened, but it works.
Also, reincarnation of the sorts the Shamans supposedly did doesn't include animals. If it did, then the Emperor would have been a Xeno at some point, given statistical averages.
How does that make him a Xeno? His existance began at that point in time. Anything prior to that was multiple beings. Plus, I'm talking about Assassin's Creed style ancestors. Father, grandfather, great-great-greatgrandfather, all the way back to when my greatx2000000 grandfather was a chimp in the trees.
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Deadshot wrote: Place your two hands flat with thumbs at 90°, fingers together. Place them across your chest, palms towards you and cross the thumbs at 90° so they form an X. You have now made sign of the Aquila.
So yea, bird shadow puppets. I get why they do it, and I can't see any other possible way to do so, but I still think it's funny. That said, does the Guard have another conventional salute, or does the aquila take that place entirely?
It's no sillier than tapping your shoulders, your neck and your belly to make the 'sign of the cross'.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/06 18:53:50
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
