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 dusara217 wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
Im going to go ahead and say DE. Even though theyre by far my favorite, they will never have the power, organization or desire to launch anything that would be more of a thorn in the Imperium's side. They really have no further agenda other than to keep on doing what theyre doing now. They will never expand as a race, and theyll never be coordinated enough to make anything of themselves.
The tau on the other hand are currently expanding, and still do hold a good deal of power. Given that the Imperium is quite preoccupied right now, they could definitely swoop in and take some territory. As for the Craftworld Eldar, they may be small, but theyre certainly organized enough to cause some pretty substantial problems. Furthermore, theyre smart enough to know how to plan and coordinate attacks and manipulate their enemies.

No Goals does not mean no power. The Dark Eldar have all of the technology of the Pre-Fall Eldar (possibly equal to that of the DAoT humans), with all of the intelligence and foresight of the Eldar plus the courage to use said weapons. The Dark Eldar are known to raid heavily fortified systems just to say that they can. With Vect at the fore, there is virtually nothing they can't do.

But Vect is barely at the fore. Right now the city is in civil war, and besides that, the DE will never decide to spread from commorragh. They may be a piratical threat, but they have ultimately no end goal.

 Jollydevil wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
Im going to go ahead and say DE. Even though theyre by far my favorite, they will never have the power, organization or desire to launch anything that would be more of a thorn in the Imperium's side. They really have no further agenda other than to keep on doing what theyre doing now. They will never expand as a race, and theyll never be coordinated enough to make anything of themselves.
The tau on the other hand are currently expanding, and still do hold a good deal of power. Given that the Imperium is quite preoccupied right now, they could definitely swoop in and take some territory. As for the Craftworld Eldar, they may be small, but theyre certainly organized enough to cause some pretty substantial problems. Furthermore, theyre smart enough to know how to plan and coordinate attacks and manipulate their enemies.

No Goals does not mean no power. The Dark Eldar have all of the technology of the Pre-Fall Eldar (possibly equal to that of the DAoT humans), with all of the intelligence and foresight of the Eldar plus the courage to use said weapons. The Dark Eldar are known to raid heavily fortified systems just to say that they can. With Vect at the fore, there is virtually nothing they can't do.

But Vect is barely at the fore. Right now the city is in civil war, and besides that, the DE will never decide to spread from commorragh. They may be a piratical threat, but they have ultimately no end goal.

So? That's like saying an isolationist state is a weak one; it doesn't track. The Eldar have significant might, their application of said might be piratical in nature, but that does not diminish it.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
Im going to go ahead and say DE. Even though theyre by far my favorite, they will never have the power, organization or desire to launch anything that would be more of a thorn in the Imperium's side. They really have no further agenda other than to keep on doing what theyre doing now. They will never expand as a race, and theyll never be coordinated enough to make anything of themselves.
The tau on the other hand are currently expanding, and still do hold a good deal of power. Given that the Imperium is quite preoccupied right now, they could definitely swoop in and take some territory. As for the Craftworld Eldar, they may be small, but theyre certainly organized enough to cause some pretty substantial problems. Furthermore, theyre smart enough to know how to plan and coordinate attacks and manipulate their enemies.

No Goals does not mean no power. The Dark Eldar have all of the technology of the Pre-Fall Eldar (possibly equal to that of the DAoT humans), with all of the intelligence and foresight of the Eldar plus the courage to use said weapons. The Dark Eldar are known to raid heavily fortified systems just to say that they can. With Vect at the fore, there is virtually nothing they can't do.

But Vect is barely at the fore. Right now the city is in civil war, and besides that, the DE will never decide to spread from commorragh. They may be a piratical threat, but they have ultimately no end goal.

So? That's like saying an isolationist state is a weak one; it doesn't track. The Eldar have significant might, their application of said might be piratical in nature, but that does not diminish it.

No, im saying that they cant and probably will never be able to unite into a such a force that you describe. While they have alot of potential, they will never be able to utilize it in ways that woud be a major threat to the imperium.

 Jollydevil wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
Im going to go ahead and say DE. Even though theyre by far my favorite, they will never have the power, organization or desire to launch anything that would be more of a thorn in the Imperium's side. They really have no further agenda other than to keep on doing what theyre doing now. They will never expand as a race, and theyll never be coordinated enough to make anything of themselves.
The tau on the other hand are currently expanding, and still do hold a good deal of power. Given that the Imperium is quite preoccupied right now, they could definitely swoop in and take some territory. As for the Craftworld Eldar, they may be small, but theyre certainly organized enough to cause some pretty substantial problems. Furthermore, theyre smart enough to know how to plan and coordinate attacks and manipulate their enemies.

No Goals does not mean no power. The Dark Eldar have all of the technology of the Pre-Fall Eldar (possibly equal to that of the DAoT humans), with all of the intelligence and foresight of the Eldar plus the courage to use said weapons. The Dark Eldar are known to raid heavily fortified systems just to say that they can. With Vect at the fore, there is virtually nothing they can't do.

But Vect is barely at the fore. Right now the city is in civil war, and besides that, the DE will never decide to spread from commorragh. They may be a piratical threat, but they have ultimately no end goal.

So? That's like saying an isolationist state is a weak one; it doesn't track. The Eldar have significant might, their application of said might be piratical in nature, but that does not diminish it.

No, im saying that they cant and probably will never be able to unite into a such a force that you describe. While they have alot of potential, they will never be able to utilize it in ways that woud be a major threat to the imperium.

From Lexicanum:" Asdrubael Vect is the leader of the Kabal of the Black Heart, the most powerful Dark Eldar Kabal in existence, thus he is therefore de-facto ruler of the city of Commorragh and the rest of the Dark Eldar race as a whole.

One of his ways of ensuring his security is the Geldling, a mysterious doppelgänger which he uses from time to time as his substitute.[3]"

As of 999.M41, he is engaged in a bitter civil war, but, that does not speak for the rest of the time that encompasses the setting of 40k. For thousands of years (virtually everything covered in non-HH novels), Vext has been the leader, and has destroyed any rivals who became a nuisance. He could, undoubtedly, Marshall virtually all of Commoragh (which consists of hundreds of sub-realities filled with billions of DE) for a campaign, if he wanted to.

Vect is nominally the "Supreme Overlord" of the Dark Eldar but he has few to no reliable allies and if any large-scale war took place his rivals would seek to usurp him.

The only enemy faction that's still unified since Newcrons are Tyranids. And Tau if you consider them enemies.

 Harriticus wrote:
Vect is nominally the "Supreme Overlord" of the Dark Eldar but he has few to no reliable allies and if any large-scale war took place his rivals would seek to usurp him.

The only enemy faction that's still unified since Newcrons are Tyranids. And Tau if you consider them enemies.

Well, if you believe the hype, Gork and Mork have got Ghazzy jumpin' all over the galaxy making the Big waaagh, so I'd say that the Orks are starting to unite.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Like, they only occupy a single region of space that could be (and nearly was) crushed by a single crusade.

Ha ha. No, not even close. The Imperium mopped up some outliner puppet systems and when they tried to invade the actual Empire, landed on a trade Sept and hit a brick wall. Once they ran off the Empire rolled out on their heels and re-took/expanded their Empire further. Yeah, they sure were "nearly crushed" right there... The Orks and the 'Nids have caused them more trouble than the IoM, yet they continue to adapt, evolve and expand.

As for the topic, Dark Eldar probably. They work well enough for what they want out of life, they raid and pirate around the galaxy, being a nuisance and keeping themselves entertained. They opportunistically pray on the chaotic state of the galaxy, but that's about all they can do. But, again, that's what they love so it's all good.

The Tau.

Tau by a wide margin in terms of galactic influence. They are decent within their area of the galaxy, but even there are stymied on one front by a typical strength Waaagh.

Dark Eldar have pretty significant numbers compared to regular eldar and Tau. Eldar themselves are monumentally powerful given their numbers, which are still high enough to compare somewhat to Tau.

The question isnt who was the least powerful race, it's who is. Just because the Craftworld Eldar were the most powerful race in the galaxy doesnt mean they still are.

While the Dark Eldar don't plan on any mass invasions doesn't mean they are weaker than the Tau. They can show up somewhere from the webway, drop a black hole in a box, and leave. The Tau don't even have warp drives the last time I checked. Sure, while the IoM is distracted they are doing fine, but once they get a reprieve the Tau will start losing ground and fast.

Another vote for the poor old Tau here.

Gretchin are the least powerful race. They are literally a race of slaves.

Gretchin aren't a race, theyare a version of orkoid.

 PhillyT wrote:
Gretchin aren't a race, theyare a version of orkoid.

Are they really of the same species as orks and squigs? (squigs are still orkish right?)

 PhillyT wrote:
Gretchin aren't a race, theyare a version of orkoid.

Definition of RACE
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race

1

: a breeding stock of animals


2

a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock

b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics

3

a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group

b : breed

c : a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits

Gretchin are as much a race as the Rahk-Gol and humans are.

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
Sure, while the IoM is distracted they are doing fine, but once they get a reprieve the Tau will start losing ground and fast.

Um, "distracted" is putting it more than a little mildly. In truth they are stretched to breaking point on pretty much every single front. You say "once they get a reprieve" like it's some sure thing... nope, at the point of timeline freeze, things are looking bleaker than ever for the IoM. Things are going to get a whole lot worse before anything gets better. Things are at a point now where their only real hope is to abandon their extreme xenophobia and try and strike a pact with the Tau, Eldar and (if possible) some of the Newcrons so they can truly focus on making headway against the Orks, 'Nids and Chaos. Besides, if the IoM were to receive some sort of reprieve, they wouldn't waste it on a (relatively) small threat on the fringes of their territory. There are bigger, closer, more urgent threats for the IoM to worry about. The simple truth of the matter is that they can't afford the resources to deal with the Tau now, and they're only getting bigger and stronger, so they never will have.

I never said it's a sure thing. It won't happen even with timeline movement at 2x. I'm just pointing out that if the IoM had a hypothetical reprieve the Tau won't stand a chance. The other factions have defence that are much harder to breach and most aren't worth the effort as is. DE isn't a place we can just send a crusade to, nowhere as easily as another one or two cam be sent to the Tau and finish them off. I'm merely pointing out the Tau can be taken more easily than other factions. The fact that they aren't top priority only strengthens my argument because others are stronger than they are.

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
I never said it's a sure thing.

No, but you said it like it was a sure thing, or definitely going to happen in the future.

I'm merely pointing out the Tau can be taken more easily than other factions.

But that simply isn't the case, at least by the IoM. They are too far from the majority/centre of the IoM's resources, too condensed and dug-in, too defensible thanks to local galactic layout. In order to send appropriate force into the far corner of their controlled territory would open up too many flanks and too many other fronts they would lose more than they'd gain. They are too far and too small on a galactic scale.

The fact that they aren't top priority only strengthens my argument because others are stronger than they are.

Which is why the IoM will never be in a position to appropriately address the Tau threat. Their distance and relatively condensed sphere of influence is actually one of the things keeping the Tau Empire alive. The IoM may be the most powerful super-power on the galactic stage, but that also keeps them front and centre in everyone else's sights. They're too big and too cumbersome to maintain stability. Tau do not have this problem, they are relatively condensed and thus strongly held together. If they're attacked you pretty much come up against everything they've got. If you attack the right parts of the IoM you can be looking at years, maybe decades before the rest of the Imperium can turn and address you.

The Orks, 'Nids and possibly even Necrons are greater threats to the Tau than the IoM, for the simple reason of galactic positioning.

They are too far from the majority/centre of the IoM's resources, too condensed and dug-in, too defensible thanks to local galactic layout. In order to send appropriate force into the far corner of their controlled territory would open up too many flanks and too many other fronts they would lose more than they'd gain. They are too far and too small on a galactic scale

Except being in the Segmentum Ultima and a galactic stone's-throw from Ultramar.

The Tau are on the opposite side of the galaxy from the Necrons, and only by artistic license could they ever actually meet.

The Tau are also, unfortunately, right in the way of three Hive Fleets: Behemoth, Gorgon and Kraken.

 Psienesis wrote:

The Tau are on the opposite side of the galaxy from the Necrons, and only by artistic license could they ever actually meet.

Sautekh is quite close isn't it?

Only if they relocated them from the galactic Northwest to the South East for some reason at some point after their 6E Codex. Implied to be, the Eldar Empire was basically built on the ashes of the Necron Empire (plus EoT, which didn't exist yet), but the Necrons were all a "west side" concern (except those that lived in hyperspace, because in that case, who knows what the feth) possibly due to mathematical determination of the eventual existence of the Eye (hence Pylons on Cadia).

 Psienesis wrote:
Except being in the Segmentum Ultima and a galactic stone's-throw from Ultramar.

And the reasons Ultramar haven't moved their might into squashing the Tau are...? Exactly, all the same ones as the rest of the IoM. Ultima Segmentum is the largest, wildest, "frontier" territory that is harder for the IoM to police than any other. Ultramar are in little better position to deal with the Tau than the rest of the IoM. In short: if they could've, they would've. It's that simple.

The Tau are on the opposite side of the galaxy from the Necrons, and only by artistic license could they ever actually meet.

Not going to pretend I'm up on all the latest Necron fluff, but I'm working off the memory of a galactic map in their codex that shows dynasties/tomb worlds spread in every corner... including the Eastern Fringe. Again, could be mistaken, which is why I added the "possibly".

The Tau are also, unfortunately, right in the way of three Hive Fleets: Behemoth, Gorgon and Kraken.

Yep, again, which is why I said;

 Anfauglir wrote:
The Orks, 'Nids and possibly even Necrons are greater threats to the Tau than the IoM, for the simple reason of galactic positioning.

I'm not arguing that the tau are harmless, only that they are the weakest race. (Faction technically, if we're going into specifics like the gretchin.) I can understand how my wording was misleading, I didn't mean to have it sound like the IoM is getting a break. By no means do the Tau come off as an easy win, but can't do as much damage right now than the other races. They have to build up, but chaos incursions can show up and wipe out a sector, or a decent sized WAAAAGH, or the DE proving a point and stealing a sun or something, the list can go on.

The Imperium could easily squish the Tau like nothing; they operate on whole different orders of magnitude. However, they are unwilling to do so, because the Imperium cannot be everywhere at once, and mustering the forces necessary to crush the Tau would mean losing on other fronts.

As long as Chaos, Tyranids and similar continue to press their way into the Imperium, the Tau simply are not a priority.

As an analogy, consider a house cat (Tau), a lion (Imperium) and a tiger (other species). The house cat stands no chance against the lion, but if the lion goes running for the house cat, it means ignoring the tiger - something it can't afford to do, at all.

 Desubot wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Gretchin aren't a race, theyare a version of orkoid.

Are they really of the same species as orks and squigs? (squigs are still orkish right?)

They all come from the same fungal spore pits. The final shape those spores take is determined by need. You can't have orks without gretchin, or gretchin without orks, or squigs without either. So it is a bit difficult to claim that the gretchin are the weakest when they can't actually be isolated as a specific group to be quantified.

Regardless, there are likely 10000 gretchin for every tau. I think they would probably be able to take out the tau if you through everything both groups had access to in a pit and had them fight it out.

 Psienesis wrote:
Only if they relocated them from the galactic Northwest to the South East for some reason at some point after their 6E Codex. Implied to be, the Eldar Empire was basically built on the ashes of the Necron Empire (plus EoT, which didn't exist yet), but the Necrons were all a "west side" concern (except those that lived in hyperspace, because in that case, who knows what the feth) possibly due to mathematical determination of the eventual existence of the Eye (hence Pylons on Cadia).

If I recall correctly the Codex said that the Necrons held millions of worlds. While they did start off in the northwest (I think) as they fought the Old Ones they apparently spread across vast territories. Which allows them to fight anyone. Hurray for letting anyone fight anyone else. Except for the Tau. The others have to come to them.


Also if we were to get hung up on races then you'd have to differentiate different Tau Castes as well as different Ork subgroups.

as far as fluff- Tau, but theyre just getting started

as far as on table- SoB but thats because multiple reasons

People in this thread are talking like the Imperium is a faction. It isn't. There is no unified government. There is no consensus regarding goals or methods from one imperial faction to the next. From the perspective of one of the other races, there is no difference between humans and orks. They are both unruly, leaderless mobs prone to constant infighting that have managed to spit in the face of reason and logic and scatter themselves across space despite their hopeless inability to coordinate their forces and refrain from shooting their own comrades in the face. The only difference is that the Orks worship gods who are real and have presence in the warp. The human god is a rotting corpse stuck in a broken iron lung, forever locked away from the immaterium.

If we're going to evaluate the Tau empire by itself then we should hold up every tiny human feudal empire for comparison. The Ultramarines and Dark Angels are de facto empires unto themselves, for example. Each IG regiment is essentially a faction unto itself. Only a tiny minority of guardsmen will ever even see an alien. Most of them will spend their lives shooting at other humans.

The situation at your LGS isn't really too far off from the fluff. In the meta it's Space Marines versus Space Marines versus Space Marines because everybody plays Space Marines. In the fluff it's because humans spend way more time killing each other than they spend killing aliens. Humans love to talk about their love for the emperor when the inquisitor's listening, but when the chips are down every man is in business for himself.

On the subject of Tau and Necrons never meeting. It is not explicitly stated, but heavily hinted at, that the Tau have lost worlds to the Necrons in the Tau codex. I have also seen it suggested that Farsight's Dawn Blade is of Necron origin and have seen it painted to suit.

Will quote entry for worlds thing as soon as I am with Codex.