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'Ere now, don't be dissin' me Orky intelli... intalluh... awwww, feth! Brains."

All joking aside, don't underestimate Ork intelligence because they sound like British football hooligans. With a deep guttural voices and a lot of slobber. Many an Imperial Commander has gotten his command slaughtered for underestimating Greenskin cunnin'.

Witness the War of the Dakka. Or Ghazzy's invasions of Armageddon. Or Nazdreg's escape from Medusa V, wherein he seized an Imperial Battleship starting with a lousy shuttle.

Let's face it, most of 40k fluff is written from the Imperial point of view. Orks are brutish antagonists, so it's easy to assume they're stupid. Imperials always prefer to refer to Orks as having 'low cunning' rather than true intelligence.

In one Codex there was an account of a Guardsman Lieutenant being Court-Martialed for cowardice. The Lieutenant claimed the Orks had used kommando taktiks to infiltrate his position and he was ridiculed by the Provost Major. To paraphrase:

"Orks using camouflage and slinking in the shadows!? Orks do not hide, they come on a great ravening hordes. Imperial Doctrine, which has served us well for over 10,000 years, teaches us this. Guard, take the prisoner away to await execution!"

(I think it's from the 4th Edition Ork Codex under Snikrot and the Redskull Kommandos. I can look up the precise quote when I get home from work.)

So who used intelligence here, Man or Ork?

The same bias explains why the Mechanicum is so anxious to attribute the operation of Ork Tek to their psychic gestalt rather than actual Orky engineering. Ork collective psychic ability almost certainly gives some of their tek a 'nudge' in the same way Eldar weapons are partly psychically activated. It doesn't mean Ork equipment is a rattling box of unattached parts as some sources would have us believe.

Of course, Ork Tek is ramshackle. The more complex stuff is unreliable and wonky. But you can attribute that to Orks having no formal training, and each Mek heavily kustomizin' every project based largely on whimsy and what's available in their bitzbox. It's more a cultural thing than a matter of intelligence.

In defense of Greenskin intellect, my two cents.

PS: It would be fair to say Ork intellect is highly focused on fighting, with scant attention to pursuits like art, culture or what humans would think of as proper science. Their approach to everything is rough, ready and improvised. Their approach is usually direct. Their engineering tends to be of the "push 'til it moves" variety. But they also manage to produce some clever technical innovations (which would probably be more effective and reliable if they were backed up by actual scientific and engineering theory, and had some safety features built in). The sheer energy displayed by Ork Meks and their Grot assistants is incredible considering that every project starts from scratch, with no designs or templates beyond what they loot.

That's not even touching on the Grots themselves, who probably have more raw intellect than the Orks themselves.

WB Gorhack

 Ketara wrote:
If we assume that they are canon in that a Commissar managed to go head to head with a CSM on multiple occasions, and deliver the coup de grace in a few of them, we can conclude that whether or not he has much hope of winning due to the biological differences of strength and durability, a human can equal an Astartes in skill. This is borne out by in game stats, and many, many other pieces of fluff about the place.

Then we can assume that the Krogan loses because the Space Marine starts to sprint instead of going into melee.

He reaches something like 170 km/h in a matter of one or two seconds (see Night Lords books for an example), and the resulting kinetic energy of the charge impact is enough to explode the Krogan into tiny slivers of gore.

Case closed!






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Not, I hasten to add, comparable to that of a Space Marine, but I would argue comparable to that of your average Ork at the least.

I think there is where we aren't lining up. Orks are actually tougher than Space Marines, and often stronger as well.

Nob+ level Orks, and without counting in armour?

Indeed.

Boyz?

Not even close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ketara wrote:
If the krogan is in cover and the marine is out in the open, things are less obvious.

From what I could see in my playthroughs of the ME games, Krogan footsoldiers don't usually have the firepower to threaten PA.

 Ketara wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:


But the weapons they have faced in their entire history of ground-based warfare pale in comparison to the brutality of a bolter.

It's got four hearts? Great. Those shields collapse in the first burst of bolter fire, the next round enters his chest and explodes, destroying all four hearts. Krogan drops like a sack of bricks.

Yes. On a firing range with a Krogan tied up naked.

In a combat situation, the Krogan takes cover (like any enemy), has the brains to keep it's head down whilst it's shield recharges (which is a variable length of time, could be quick, could be slow), wears armour (to deflect some of the damage) and has enough redundant systems not to die from a single glancing shot to somewhere that isn't vital.

I'm not saying that the Marine doesn't have advantage (it does), but as with any combat situation, there's rarely a straight forward situation. If a Marine jet packs down and shoots the krogan in the head, the krogan is dead. If the krogan is in cover and the marine is out in the open, things are less obvious.

Unless there's a convenient block of half-meter concrete, nothing that Krogan hides behind will bother a bolter-round. Or, the Space Marine simply sprints over, as he's faster than the Krogan in every conceivable way, and buries his chainsword in its face. In a "versus" scenario like this, we have to assume that both combatants are reasonably aware of the other, otherwise it's an ambush, and in such case the balance of power shifts in the favor of those attacking with surprise, generally regardless of actual prowess and equipment variations.

Basically, in no scenario where the Space Marine is on roughly-equal footing with the Krogan, in a tactical sense, is the Krogan coming out ahead. The Marine has superior skills, weapons, and biology. He's bigger, he's stronger, and he's probably more battle-experienced, since there's not the huge-scale battles in Mass Effect as there are in 40K. Yes, Krogan live a few centuries, but those that do are remarkable for their society. Space Marines are a century old before they're not considered FNGs.

 Psienesis wrote:



Unless there's a convenient block of half-meter concrete, nothing that Krogan hides behind will bother a bolter-round.

Welcome to the grim dark future, where every battlefield is ruins and knee high walls.

In a more serious manner, when someone is hiding in cover (be it trenches, or behind vehicles), it's far harder to get a conclusive hit, especially against something that has a physiology that allow it to keep functioning when you hit it with anything that isn't a killshot. Primarily because you can't see the target to aim a killshot properly, and anything that slows down the round robs it of velocity or (in the case of bolter) makes it explode that second too early. When you add in recharging shields and armour, it makes the game a little harder.

Or, the Space Marine simply sprints over, as he's faster than the Krogan in every conceivable way, and buries his chainsword in its face.
In a "versus" scenario like this, we have to assume that both combatants are reasonably aware of the other, otherwise it's an ambush, and in such case the balance of power shifts in the favor of those attacking with surprise, generally regardless of actual prowess and equipment variations.

Aye. It depends on the battlefield, how many combatants there are, the terrain layout, the weaponry in play, and more. It's why 1v1's are usually a slightly daft concept to begin with, as it presumes idealised circumstances, but which circumstances are idealised usually varies depending on who you feel should be winning.

Basically, in no scenario where the Space Marine is on roughly-equal footing with the Krogan, in a tactical sense, is the Krogan coming out ahead. The Marine has superior skills, weapons, and biology. He's bigger, he's stronger, and he's probably more battle-experienced, since there's not the huge-scale battles in Mass Effect as there are in 40K. Yes, Krogan live a few centuries, but those that do are remarkable for their society. Space Marines are a century old before they're not considered FNGs.

I agree, generally speaking. I think combat prowess can make a small difference, a ex-Scout on his first outing in power armour coming up against a Krogan Biotic Battlemaster probably won't live to tell about it, but a Librarian will kick the krogan's arse most likely.

 Ashiraya wrote:


Then we can assume that the Krogan loses because the Space Marine starts to sprint instead of going into melee.

He reaches something like 170 km/h in a matter of one or two seconds (see Night Lords books for an example), and the resulting kinetic energy of the charge impact is enough to explode the Krogan into tiny slivers of gore.

Case closed!
.

I hope I did not come across as rude, Ketara. I just meant that Cain's Astartes-soloing-abilities come across as unbelievable, kind of like having a car driving onto you and you just parry it.

Parrying is not all about strength, but without sufficient strength, parrying does nothing. And given that Astartes usually go rip off tank sponsons, tear through walls, flip cars and the like, having a fencing match with them seems... ludicrous. This goes for Krogan too, who, while stronger than humans, are still on the same order of magnitude.

I think even a newly promoted Battle Brother, first engagement in Power Armour, still takes a Krogan Battlemaster to be honest.

Yeah. The tech + physiology disparity is just extreme.

Honestly, a Krogan is really badass. Redundant organs, backup systems, lots of armor plating. Problem is, a boltgun is exactly the type of weapon that would be perfect for killing that specific creature. The round would pierce the hard exterior of the Krogan and detonate inside, and the hard shell of the Krogan would actually cause the blast to do more damage by insulating all that explosive force inside the body.

Shields make it more interesting, but the firearms in Mass Effect were not particularly powerful and they still depleted most shields after only a few hits.

If the fight closed to melee, it would be a different story. I think the krogan could take the marine in melee maybe 1/3 of the time. The trouble is that this is a marine veteran, which means that he's been around enough to recognize the krogan for what it is and understand a basic idea of how to fight it (i.e., he's fought plenty of things with shells and claws and teeth and such, and he's been through decades of hypnotic simulations of Carnifexes and Knarlocs and everything else under the stars). Thinking about that, let me revise it. I'd say the Krogan wins 1 out of 4. The Marine wins 2 out of 4. And the rest of the time they would both die (last ditch grenades, victorious but mortally wounded, that sort of thing).

Fire arms in Mass Effect do seem particularly powerful because their armor and shields are designed to resist the force of them. Remember that the standard weapon in Mass Effect is essentially a Shuriken Catapult with greater range, and that some of the sniper rifles are practically the Tau Rail Rifle.

Go back to ME 1 when you could get the Explosive X ammo upgrade for weapons and you have a Weapon that hits harder than a boltgun.

Not really, because the Explosive mods for ME weapons are not *also* armor-piercing. Bolt Rounds are already explosive, with the added benefit of not exploding until they're inside you.

 bossfearless wrote:
If the fight closed to melee, it would be a different story. I think the krogan could take the marine in melee maybe 1/3 of the time. The trouble is that this is a marine veteran, which means that he's been around enough to recognize the krogan for what it is and understand a basic idea of how to fight it (i.e., he's fought plenty of things with shells and claws and teeth and such, and he's been through decades of hypnotic simulations of Carnifexes and Knarlocs and everything else under the stars). Thinking about that, let me revise it. I'd say the Krogan wins 1 out of 4. The Marine wins 2 out of 4. And the rest of the time they would both die (last ditch grenades, victorious but mortally wounded, that sort of thing).

Krogan's favorite melee attack is to lower their heads and run forward. In a 1v1 situation that's a either a bolt round through the top of the skull or a chainsword to the face, every single time.

Are we assuming full equipment and stuff?

or 1v1 no shooting or shields, martial combat?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I hope I did not come across as rude, Ketara. I just meant that Cain's Astartes-soloing-abilities come across as unbelievable, kind of like having a car driving onto you and you just parry it.

Parrying is not all about strength, but without sufficient strength, parrying does nothing. And given that Astartes usually go rip off tank sponsons, tear through walls, flip cars and the like, having a fencing match with them seems... ludicrous. This goes for Krogan too, who, while stronger than humans, are still on the same order of magnitude.

It's fine, a friendly debate is always fun. We don't HAVE to agree, I mean, this is 40K. You could pilot an X-Wing through the plotholes. Marines can be strong enough to carve names onto Primarch hearts and surf tanks into battle, and other times they die to lasrounds.

With Cain, most of his 'fencing' usually consists of him dodging frantically out of the way until Jurgen gets a shot off with a melta, which is just about believable for someone quick on their feet with a lot of battle experience. As someone who's done a bit of swordplay martial arts themselves, I also know it's possible to deflect a blow by sliding it off to the side and redirecting the force instead of absorbing it, so I'm afraid do I actually disagree with you slightly there about parrying doing nothing without roughly equivalent strength. It helps that Cain's usually fighting Khornate marines, who rely on force over skill. All in all, I can just about buy the Cain stories.

And generally speaking here, I actually believe krogan inferior to Marines, which I think some people just aren't grasping. I just believe that battle experience and equipment can potentially even the odds depending on the circumstance. For example, a Krogan battlemaster who fires off some form of gravitic biotic just before as a Marine raises hiss word may get the opening he needs to shove his shotgun into the marines eye socket and pull the trigger. Likewise, a Marine who spots a krogan battlemaster legging it between bits of terrain may get a well-aimed enough set of rounds off to obliterate him. A veteran with a chainsword may go to hit the Battlemaster on the head and find he's fortified himself enough to deflect the blow (biotically), grabs the marines arm, pulls him off balance, and the pair end up kicking around on the floor and trying to piledrive each other.

Battles of any kind are rarely static scenarios.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Fire arms in Mass Effect do seem particularly powerful because their armor and shields are designed to resist the force of them. Remember that the standard weapon in Mass Effect is essentially a Shuriken Catapult with greater range, and that some of the sniper rifles are practically the Tau Rail Rifle.

Go back to ME 1 when you could get the Explosive X ammo upgrade for weapons and you have a Weapon that hits harder than a boltgun.

We're going to use video game mechanics as an argument? Awesome! C:<

Want me to link you to a youtube video where I take my Assault Marine and solokill 1,000 Orks in Space Marine?

 Orblivion wrote:

 bossfearless wrote:
If the fight closed to melee, it would be a different story. I think the krogan could take the marine in melee maybe 1/3 of the time. The trouble is that this is a marine veteran, which means that he's been around enough to recognize the krogan for what it is and understand a basic idea of how to fight it (i.e., he's fought plenty of things with shells and claws and teeth and such, and he's been through decades of hypnotic simulations of Carnifexes and Knarlocs and everything else under the stars). Thinking about that, let me revise it. I'd say the Krogan wins 1 out of 4. The Marine wins 2 out of 4. And the rest of the time they would both die (last ditch grenades, victorious but mortally wounded, that sort of thing).

Krogan's favorite melee attack is to lower their heads and run forward. In a 1v1 situation that's a either a bolt round through the top of the skull or a chainsword to the face, every single time.

^This.

It works in ME because almost nothing they face is their size or larger... a Space Marine is (at the least!) as tall as a Krogan and outweighs him by some 200kg.

Its not just the Mechanics is explained in the fluff, that the weapons function like that, and have that sort of power. Kinetic Energy alone from the RAIL guns used in Mass Effect as the standard Infantry Rifles of that universe would be greater than that of a boltgun, which is essentially just a 20mm Rifle fired from Conventional methods with rocket assistance after leaving the barrel.

With Cain, most of his 'fencing' usually consists of him dodging frantically out of the way until Jurgen gets a shot off with a melta, which is just about believable for someone quick on their feet with a lot of battle experience.

I still can't quite see how he'll dodge someone so much faster. I am reminded of 40k where Gretchin has a 33% chance to evade Jain Zar's attacks...

I'm afraid do I actually disagree with you slightly there about parrying doing nothing without roughly equivalent strength.

Not equivalent strength, sufficient strength. See my analogy about the car. Redirection is not enough unless you also have some sturdiness behind it. I do martial arts as well, I know well how parrying works, and it's very solid in human VS human fights. Versus superhumans... not so much.

It helps that Cain's usually fighting Khornate marines, who rely on force over skill.

Berzerkers are very skilled. It's part of what makes them so dangerous - they blend battle rage with battle skill.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Its not just the Mechanics is explained in the fluff, that the weapons function like that, and have that sort of power. Kinetic Energy alone from the RAIL guns used in Mass Effect as the standard Infantry Rifles of that universe would be greater than that of a boltgun, which is essentially just a 20mm Rifle fired from Conventional methods with rocket assistance after leaving the barrel.

Ehm, no they aren't. The tech-specs of the ME-verse weapons is readily available in the in-game Codex. The battlerifles and the like aren't that way at all.

From the Codex, about Mass Accelerators

"A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion. The slug is designed to squash or shatter on impact, increasing the energy it transfers to the target. If this were not the case, it would simply punch a hole right through, doing minimal damage.

Accelerator design was revolutionized by element zero. A slug lightened by a mass effect field can be accelerated to greater speeds, permitting projectile velocities that were previously unattainable. If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon."

I do not think that sentence says what you think it says.

It says: 'If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon.'

It does not say 'Mass Accelerator firearms fire nuke equivalents.'

It just says it is possible to to achieve that effect with enough velocity... Not if anyone does or can do it.

Im not saying it fires nukes, but I am saying the the velocity achived out of the basic rifle IS greater than that of a Boltgun. Which would cause greater Kinetic Damage to the Target as well as having better penetration power vs the Astartes armor.

You payed too much attention to the nukes and not enough to everything else.

It certainly all depends on the actual specs of whats being fired.

You can accelerate all sorts of things and get a specific output.

but the question is what speed does it fire at?

what is the base speed and actual damage compared to a bolt.

seems important to have both before making assumptions.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
From the Codex, about Mass Accelerators

"A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion. The slug is designed to squash or shatter on impact, increasing the energy it transfers to the target. If this were not the case, it would simply punch a hole right through, doing minimal damage.

Accelerator design was revolutionized by element zero. A slug lightened by a mass effect field can be accelerated to greater speeds, permitting projectile velocities that were previously unattainable. If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon."

Which says absolutely nothing about how the battle-rifles and other man-portable guns in the game function, or their stopping power. Since against human creatures it takes *several* hits from a rifle to drop one, even once their shields are down, they appear to have less stopping-power than a conventional, 20th century firearm. That their ammo is designed to flatten against armor is, again, not particularly helpful against the hard armor of a Space Marine. Rounds will impact on the ceramite and stop there, the transfer of kinetic energy, while effective against regular human targets, is far less-effective against an Astartes' enhanced biology, and a round that shatters on impact is not actually transferring its energy to the target, it's transferring it in every direction those shards are traveling.

All of this besides the fact that Force= Mass x Acceleration. Making a round lighter but faster can result in a loss of effectiveness, as lighter rounds deflect more easily. In this scenario, using Ezo to reduce the mass of the bullet is actually reducing its effectiveness, because you need to increase its acceleration in tandem to provide similar Force results. That a paint-chip can theoretically be accelerated to hit with the force of a nuclear weapon is both a simple illustration of potential but, also, not how impact weapons work, which isn't surprising since it's a video game not a physics dissertation. Nuclear weapons don't cause the destruction they do because of high-speed impact.

This on top of the fact that they didn't fire regular slugs in ME1, they used a block of material a sliver was shaved from, similar to a shuriken weapon, hence the required "thermal clips" to prevent overheating, which were universal to all weapons.

The armor of that universe is also specifically created to counter the rounds fired from the weapons there. And if we are once again back to using in game examples, I'll point you back at the various ammo type available in setting.

So what you get is a Shuriken Weapon with greater range than its Eldar equivalent and more ammunition options depending on the ammo block used in the rifle.

Again with video games to show the damage of weapons, to the Boltgun which has numerous deceptions showing that it is just as (un)effective against targets in its universe as the ME Rifles are in theirs.

It's no contest imo, the marine is faster, more heavily armed, possibly stronger, he has the advantage in nearly every way

The types of armor in ME can be generally associated with a match in 40k. Light is Flak, Medium is Carapace, Heavy is Power Armor. Heavy is always the most-effective armor in ME in blocking ballistic attacks, it's only against Biotic/Tech attacks that this may not be true.

We can't really compare the ranges of the weapons, since the examples we're given in both settings (ME and 40k) are ludicrously short-range. If we take what is on-screen in ME, a pistol has an effective range of about twenty feet, an assault rifle about twice that. The only man-portable weapons with decent stopping power are sniper rifles which, for some reason, are equipped with very low-count magazines. Why? Who the feth knows? If the weapon is that effective, put a fifty-round drum on that beast.

Weapons in 40k are not much different, really, outside of certain mentions in BL novels. Weapon ranges are all over the place in 40K. On the table-top, most battle-rifles are handshake-range, while others seem to fire miles. Eisenhorn's bolt-pistol is blowing people in half left, right and center. Gaunt's is only slightly less-effective (though no less lethal).

And 40K video games with SM vs IG (a few DoW entries) generally shows the IG getting mown down by the Marines, unless and until the IG can find cover. SM vs Orks? Well, your average Ork is akin to a Krogan and can take a few more hits... with the added bonus of having a different physiology than the Krogan.

Im extremely delighted this has actually had lots of comments and votes!

Id like to add in some lesser known facts about Krogan to support my vote. This is pulled straight from the wiki.


"Krogan are arguably one of the toughest organic known amongst the myriad of races that form the Citadel Council. Their bodies are literally a powerhouse of organic strength, durability and adaptability. They have effective, dense musculature, a large mass, and skin 'only penetrable by a molecular blade'. They have eyes on the side of the head to give a greater field of vision, which allows them to better see those sneaking up on them. With most krogan, their body possesses primary, secondary and even tertiary organs and backups, even going so far as to have a redundant nervous system, their primary one being a system of electrically conductive fluid rather than a nervous one. Capable of cellular regeneration unseen in most races, (perhaps explaining their longevity, though they must also counter genetic aging), rivaling even the Vorcha, Krogan are resilient warriors."

On top of that they can walk unharmed through intense heat and cold, survive low-to moderate amounts of radiation without any negative effects.

Keep in mind what the wiki says about their nervous system too. They cant be knocked unconscious. Space Marines have had to fight off passing out in many books many many times. And the video of Grunt doing work? He was tank bred to perfection but has only 3 years of experiance. A Krogan Battlemaster would have hundreds if not a thousand. Queu Wrex

https://youtu.be/okGt_1rNsf0

Eyes on the side is usually a aspect of prey no?

as to have much better peripheral vision over a focused one as most predators do.

It would mean they probably wont have the best shots off. but should be very reactive.

 Desubot wrote:
Eyes on the side is usually a aspect of prey no?

as to have much better peripheral vision over a focused one as most predators do.

It would mean they probably wont have the best shots off. but should be very reactive.

Before the invention of gunpowder on their home planet of tuchunka, "eaten by predators" was the largest factor of death. After it was "death by gunshot". And the top predators on tuchunka are these

Also even if they are bad shots, which there isnt any in game or lore evidence to support, they prefer shotguns anyway.

Krogan couldn't even put a dent in a space marine's armor with those weapons.

Hell, Krogan's best ability, rapid breeding, doesn't even matter in a one on one fight.