Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Don't fear, folks, it's still not too late to get your limited edition Hobbit starter set!

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/The-Hobbit-Escape-from-Goblin-Town-Limited-Edition-ENG

 notprop wrote:

I just hope now the licence is ending they will bring one of those or Epic back as the third system.

Third system? Snort guffaw. Just recently they were struggling to maintain a second system.

i dont see why they didnt have AOS in addition to WHFB

-

I'd just like to point out to those of you who think they will bring in a 3rd system to replace LotR that there was a quote in one of the recent reports (I want to say the last or second last Kirby did, so last full year or the half before that?) about their "Three game systems (soon to be two)".

Could see a few sets of rules, but with only the two ranges of models to go with them.

Pity really, LotR is a good set of skirmish rules, and would have made a decent skirmish version of warhammer, with just re-written profiles. Coupled with a policy of not providing profiles for all of the larger models - so they are 'forced' into the larger game and both could work very nicely.

At the moment the only reason for GW having the license seems to be to make sure that no one else does.

 Ratius wrote:
It is in discussions Talys - has been since the OP

My bad O.o Must have had 2 browsers open at once! Sorry!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

leopard wrote:
At the moment the only reason for GW having the license seems to be to make sure that no one else does.

While that could be, I'm not sure who would want to start that up today, seeing as there are unlikely to be other Middle Earth movies in the near future, and the Hobbit was not something that Tolkien fans were generally happy with.

Agree however the current license was likely signed when the Hobbit was still in production with a fixed term, once it expires GW are unlikely to care.

 Talys wrote:

While that could be, I'm not sure who would want to start that up today, seeing as there are unlikely to be other Middle Earth movies in the near future, and the Hobbit was not something that Tolkien fans were generally happy with.

A smaller company could still do pretty well out of LOTR - Just imagine if one of the companies making fantasy rules in the near future took it on as their fantasy world. Warlord and Fireforge spring to mind. Hail Caesar: Middle Earth would be amazing


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
i dont see why they didnt have AOS in addition to WHFB

Because that'd have been a good idea. I suspect they wanted everyone to move from WHFB -> AOS and knew that wouldn't happen whilst WHFB was supported.

Talys wrote:While that could be, I'm not sure who would want to start that up today, seeing as there are unlikely to be other Middle Earth movies in the near future, and the Hobbit was not something that Tolkien fans were generally happy with.

That's assuming that the movies are the be-all, end-all of Middle-Earth, and any future games would have to be based on them. Which medium do you think those Tolkien fans would rather have a game based on...?

Although...

Herzlos wrote:
A smaller company could still do pretty well out of LOTR - Just imagine if one of the companies making fantasy rules in the near future took it on as their fantasy world. Warlord and Fireforge spring to mind. Hail Caesar: Middle Earth would be amazing

That's assuming that any kind of Middle-Earth gaming would need (or at least be better with) a rulebook or minis with an official stamp. A lot of those people making fantasy rules are making them universal, allowing any minis or settings to be slotted in or laid over, and IMO that's one of their strengths. (Not to mention they're being written to be good in themselves, not to sell minis) Even some with a dedicated setting can easily allow that setting to be switched.
I've gone on about some of these before, but you've got choices at every level: mass battle rules like Mayhem and Legions of Battle; retinue/warband skirmish rules like Lion Rampant (historical but highly usable for M-E) and the upcoming fantasy conversion Dragon Rampant, LotR-based battle boards for Saga, and God of Battles; and small 'gang' skirmish games like Epic Heroes, CROM, and the ol' workhorse Song of Blades and Heroes. And more.

Heck, you daydream about Hail Caesar: Middle Earth. Did you know there's already a free-to-download WG/Rick Priestly-approved fantasy addon for Hail Caesar? Read more here.

Gw is not dropping LOTR. Yes it will go to direct only and 30k plastics will take over that wall space in GW shops. They have the license for many more years still so no they wont be dropping it entirely but yes you may not see anything but a starter set, if that.

LOTR will still be available.

 namiel wrote:
Gw is not dropping LOTR. Yes it will go to direct only and 30k plastics will take over that wall space in GW shops. They have the license for many more years still so no they wont be dropping it entirely but yes you may not see anything but a starter set, if that.

LOTR will still be available.

Got any sort of source on when the license actually expires?

I always felt the armies in LotR were "hero delivery systems", which in fairness is how they are in the films.

It seemed odd that GW didn't try to tie it in to their existing game systems more.

And the growing use of the words Heroic and Epic before every single action, combined with WD beginning to use trademarked character names in italics (AAARGH!) put me off.

I'll never forget an issue of WD years ago with an article about LotR where it said the WD team were surprised that WD readers were clamouring for a reduction or removal of LotR content -- but the article literally finished with "Well we're going to increase it instead".

Make of that what you will.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 namiel wrote:
Gw is not dropping LOTR. Yes it will go to direct only and 30k plastics will take over that wall space in GW shops. They have the license for many more years still so no they wont be dropping it entirely but yes you may not see anything but a starter set, if that.

LOTR will still be available.

Got any sort of source on when the license actually expires?

off the top of my head no but it was released by gw the resigning of the license for several years. This was within the past 6-9months. It wasn't rumor mill it was GW who said this in an official capacity

 namiel wrote:
no they wont be dropping it entirely but yes you may not see anything but a starter set, if that.

LOTR will still be available.

This is my excited face.

I think it would be very premature for GW to drop the range entirely. The SBG seems to be experiencing a resurgence in some localized parts of the UK. I'm attending an independent tournament in Stockport in 2 weeks time that is apparently going to be bigger than the official GW tournaments for LOTR, over 80 people. Thats pretty damn impressive considering its ran by just 2 guys out of their local gaming club with no official support or recognition from GW. And this is the 5th time they've run this tournament (typically 3 times a year in April, September/October and December).

LOTR may be relatively small now that the hype factor of the movies has died away, but it has a very dedicated hardcore fanbase that doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Just like a certain fantasy football game that GW dropped...

Heres a few comments from the TO and one from myself.

https://www.facebook.com/events/107781226233264/149066412104745/

TO wrote:As payments continue to trickle through and I look at the list of attendees and also the names that haven't even been added as (WAITING) it is dawning on me that this event could even creep past 80...

UNBELIEVABLE JEFF!!!

TO wrote: I know! Especially considering I can think of over 20 notables who AREN'T coming to this one. My goodness, if they made it it would be the first time in SBG and GBHL history that an independent event surpassed official Throne of Skulls numbers for SBG!!

TO wrote: What a fab community we have. Above proves that SBG on a player level IS NOT SLOWING DOWN! No better time to hit EBay and get involved!

TO wrote:Trend very much the same elsewhere this year. No one could get tickets for MSWG unless members! Titans selling out and almost hitting 50. Just brilliant.

Edithae wrote: I'm gonna post a link to this on Dakka Dakka. There are plenty of threads on there of Warhammer players whingeing about the SBG, asking "Why hasn't this game been scrapped? It's awful, nobody plays it." etc.

How do other tournaments compare? Do they get comparable attendance? If James and Jamies repeated success with the Desolation of Stockport tournies is not just a fluke and its being replicated elsewhere, then the SBG looks set to be the new Bloodbowl with regards to long lasting popularity after being discontinued.

TO wrote:Do it, lots of wargamers have a LOTR army and just think no one plays the game any more! If it grabs some attention, brilliant! Average tournament get's between 20-30, we're just lucky with the exposure of the channel that we're getting 60+ and now the realms of 70+ but the great thing is with the league, is that it's spread nationwide and popular enough to carry a tournament every month no problem!

I can accept no future releases for the LOTR/Hobbit range (though there are still a few gaping holes in the Battle of Five Armies collection - where are the Gundabad Trolls, Iron Hill Dwarves and Dain Ironfoot?).

I've seen hobbyists and commission sculptors work miracles by converting existing miniatures and in many cases come up with better releases than GW. But if GW cans the entire range, it'll probably kill the SBG community. New players can't play the game after all if they can't find the miniatures. And they've already discontinued some of the rulebooks, so for some armies new players have no choice but to hunt down 2nd hand books. They should keep production going on a low scale at least until molds wear out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 notprop wrote:

I just hope now the licence is ending they will bring one of those or Epic back as the third system.

That would be bloody awesome

No doubt the rules would be fethed up, but I would love for a load of new infantry sculpts to be released and you can imagine some pretty impressive terrain coming along.

Bottle wrote:The 3rd system is going to be 30k I heard. That way there is a nice customer progression in the store from entry level AoS to the flagship 40k and eventually the luxury range of Forgeworld models.

That's not really a 3rd 'system' though. Certainly not in the sense that the term is generally used in wargaming to describe rule mechanics/scale and setting.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I think it would be very premature for GW to drop the range entirely. The SBG seems to be experiencing a resurgence in some localized parts of the UK. I'm attending an independent tournament in Stockport in 2 weeks time that is apparently going to be bigger than the official GW tournaments for LOTR, over 80 people. Thats pretty damn impressive considering its ran by just 2 guys out of their local gaming club with no official support or recognition from GW. And this is the 5th time they've run this tournament (typically 3 times a year in April, September/October and December).

I guess if were hoping AoS was going to use the LOTR system, the next best thing is going to LOTR. Brilliant move from GW

GW dropping LotR is no surprise. The license is running out and the Hobbit did not do much to revive interest in the game (also no surprise with how expensive those models are).

Me? I will just continue to collect buckets of cheap LotR minis over Ebay.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Me? I will just continue to collect buckets of cheap LotR minis over Ebay.

I wish the early metal orcs by the Perrys were in that category.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
GW dropping LotR is no surprise. The license is running out and the Hobbit did not do much to revive interest in the game (also no surprise with how expensive those models are).

As opposed to Warhammer 40,000 and Age of Sigmar models?

It didn't help that LotR models started out so cheap and reasonable, at a time when 40K and FB minis had long since started pricing people out. And this might be just out of my head, but were the Hobbit minis even more expensive than latter-day LotR? I remember looking at things like Gundabad orcs and Lakemen and fings and my eyes almost popping out of my head, though I knew they were going to be pricey in some way.

All that, and I think people had started to realise what a hack Peter Jackson is.

 Vermis wrote:
It didn't help that LotR models started out so cheap and reasonable, at a time when 40K and FB minis had long since started pricing people out. And this might be just out of my head, but were the Hobbit minis even more expensive than latter-day LotR? I remember looking at things like Gundabad orcs and Lakemen and fings and my eyes almost popping out of my head, though I knew they were going to be pricey in some way.

All that, and I think people had started to realise what a hack Peter Jackson is.

Yes. Hobbit miniatures are in many cases over 200% what the LOTR miniatures cost back when I started the game (and miniature wargaming in general) shortly after the release of Return of the King in 2003. But the SBG is still a vastly cheaper game than Warhammer.

I've found my interest in LOTR/Hobbit miniatures has been reinvigorated in recent years, because I've been looking outside of the proverbial Gamesworkshop box eyeing up other wargames like SAGA, as well as Dungeons and Dragons (I'm hosting a new campaign as DM at my local club in a month's time). I still like LOTR/Hobbit miniatures so I figured, why not continue collecting them and adapt my armies to play whatever gaming system I like? Ebay is awash with old cheap LOTR miniatures, and I've been slowly accumulating Hobbit miniatures (mostly plastics) from Element Games in Stockport, every time I attend SBG tournaments at the club next door.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
GW dropping LotR is no surprise. The license is running out and the Hobbit did not do much to revive interest in the game (also no surprise with how expensive those models are).

As opposed to Warhammer 40,000 and Age of Sigmar models?

Well yes.
€200 for 40k gets you this:

€200 for AoS gets you this:

While €200 for the Hobbit gets you this:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
GW dropping LotR is no surprise. The license is running out and the Hobbit did not do much to revive interest in the game (also no surprise with how expensive those models are).

As opposed to Warhammer 40,000 and Age of Sigmar models?

Well yes.
€200 for 40k gets you this:

Spoiler:

38 miniatures, including 4 larger vehicles.

€200 for AoS gets you this:

Spoiler:

81 miniatures

While €200 for the Hobbit gets you this:

Spoiler:

22 miniatures.

Thats disingenuous. You're comparing plastics to Finecast. Apples and Oranges. A more accurate comparison would be comparing a Sisters of Battle force (largely Finecast and/or metal) to that Hobbit force. Granted, a great deal of the SBG range is Finecast (more so than Warhammer), but there are several armies that have a decent amount of plastic troops available.

Also, you're comparing a mass battle game (Warhammer 40,000) to a Skirmish game (SBG). That Dark Eldar force [I'm guessing] is only a moderately sized army. 1000 pts at best? To play a typical sized game, which seems to be upwards of 2000pts these days, you'd need to add a lot more to that force.

Whereas that Hobbit set is a decent sized skirmish army in its own right. If I was playing that, I would just add 2 or 3 members of Thorin's company (about £30 of finecast blisters), or get 2 blisters of Lake Town Guard and the Captain and that'd be like 500pts or more already. Typical SBG games are 500pts to 750 pts.

I've not played Age of Sigmar and I don't intend to so I can't comment on the AOS force. Is that an entire army?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
GW dropping LotR is no surprise. The license is running out and the Hobbit did not do much to revive interest in the game (also no surprise with how expensive those models are).

As opposed to Warhammer 40,000 and Age of Sigmar models?

Well yes.
€200 for 40k gets you this:

Spoiler:

38 miniatures, including 4 larger vehicles.

€200 for AoS gets you this:

Spoiler:

81 miniatures

While €200 for the Hobbit gets you this:

Spoiler:

22 miniatures.

Thats disingenuous. You're comparing plastics to Finecast. Apples and Oranges. A more accurate comparison would be comparing a Sisters of Battle force (largely Finecast and/or metal) to that Hobbit force. Granted, a great deal of the SBG range is Finecast (more so than Warhammer), but there are several armies that have a decent amount of plastic troops available.

Also, you're comparing a mass battle game (Warhammer 40,000) to a Skirmish game (SBG). That Dark Eldar force [I'm guessing] is only a moderately sized army. 1000 pts at best? To play a typical sized game, which seems to be upwards of 2000pts these days, you'd need to add a lot more to that force.

Whereas that Hobbit set is a decent sized skirmish army in its own right. If I was playing that, I would just add Thorin's company, or get 2 blisters of Lake Town Guard and the Captain and that'd be like 500pts or more already. Typical SBG games are 500pts to 750 pts.

I've not played Age of Sigmar and I don't intend to so I can't comment on the AOS force. Is that an entire army?

To which is add, even at Hobbit prices rather than LotR, you could easily build a much larger for force for the same money. For example:

Thror
12 Grimhammers

Thrain
12 Grimhammera

Young Thorin
12 Warriors of Erebor

Young Dwalin
12 Warriors of Erebor

Young Balin



All for the same €200. That's still a lot more than a LotR army of similar size/model count would run you, but on the other hand is more than enough for a pretty damn big game by SBG standards. A standard SBG force is still am huge degree cheaper than a standard 40k or AoS army.

That said, I do agree about how badly GW handled the Hobbit as a whole, it became a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy in the end.

GW created a negative feedback loop with The Hobbit.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Thats disingenuous. You're comparing plastics to Finecast. Apples and Oranges. A more accurate comparison would be comparing a Sisters of Battle force (largely Finecast and/or metal) to that Hobbit force. Granted, a great deal of the SBG range is Finecast (more so than Warhammer), but there are several armies that have a decent amount of plastic troops available.

Also, you're comparing a mass battle game (Warhammer 40,000) to a Skirmish game (SBG). That Dark Eldar force [I'm guessing] is only a moderately sized army. 1000 pts at best? To play a typical sized game, which seems to be upwards of 2000pts these days, you'd need to add a lot more to that force.

Whereas that Hobbit set is a decent sized skirmish army in its own right. If I was playing that, I would just add 2 or 3 members of Thorin's company (about £30 of finecast blisters), or get 2 blisters of Lake Town Guard and the Captain and that'd be like 500pts or more already. Typical SBG games are 500pts to 750 pts.

I've not played Age of Sigmar and I don't intend to so I can't comment on the AOS force. Is that an entire army?

It's not disingenuous to compare 40k plastic to Hobbit finecast because GW are the ones who insist on releasing Hobbit models in finecast even though they know finecast is crap and don't use it for 40k or WHFB any more.

But prices are definitely a big factor affecting The Hobbit. The plastics that came out with the first movie were a big price rise compared to the LOTR and a lot of LOTR fans didn't think it was worth it. Things like 6 plastic Knights of Rivendell for $50 (compared to 6 Galadhrim Knights for $38) or 10 Grimhammers for $35 (compared to 12 LOTR Dwarf Warriors for $25) or 10 Mirkwood Elves for $40 (compared to 12 LOTR Wood Elf Warriors for $25).

Right from the get-go, people didn't like Escape from Goblin Town and price was a big factor in that.

While it's true that LOTR/Hobbit is a skirmish game, when it comes to people like me we tended to enjoy collecting large forces anyway.

Yes it is disingenuous. Finecast comes with a considerable makeup compared to plastic, which means you're creating an automatic bias in favour of the army with the most plastic. A more accurate comparison would be to compare Hobbit armies with lots of Finecast to a 40K army with lots of Finecast, like Sisters of Battle.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Yes it is disingenuous. Finecast comes with a considerable makeup compared to plastic, which means you're creating an automatic bias in favour of the army with the most plastic. A more accurate comparison would be to compare Hobbit armies with lots of Finecast to a 40K army with lots of Finecast, like Sisters of Battle.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then because I don't think it's disingenuous to make the comparison when that's what GW provide you. You can't make a comparison to the hypothetical models that GW don't make.

Sisters of Battle are 1 of about 10-15 armies you can collect for 40k and people complain about how crap the pricing is on them as well.

But either way you ignored the rest of what I posted. Even if you don't compare The Hobbit to 40k but rather to LOTR, the massive price jumps are a large part of the reason many previous customers didn't get on board with The Hobbit.