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No. You don't get to tar a whole religion like that, motyak

 jhe90 wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Early records put it at 50,000 people, its gone a very long way in a century to 2 million plus, at a high of 3 million one year.

Yes advanced alot but they have hit what seems like the safe limit. No matter what they do they cannot scale up forever. The central mosque is forever being enlarged but still, at the price of demolishing most of the history.

It takes 100,000 to Marshall and run, its a giant logistical nightmare.

Oh indeed. They reckon that 85% of the original Mecca has been demolished in the past thirty years. Kind of defeats the purpose of the pilgrimage if none of the original city is left.

Yeah even there own holy prophets house was demolished or slated for in another project or expansion, its all a huge industry for the bin larden group, they get loads of juicey contracts.

Merge in turn, all well and good till a driver has a big German car lol

I heard that the group currently in power in Saudi Arabia (salafists) do this to prevent people from realising the original, older versions of islam do not necessarily agree with salafist principles. They deliberately destroy historical islamic monuments.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Early records put it at 50,000 people, its gone a very long way in a century to 2 million plus, at a high of 3 million one year.

Yes advanced alot but they have hit what seems like the safe limit. No matter what they do they cannot scale up forever. The central mosque is forever being enlarged but still, at the price of demolishing most of the history.

It takes 100,000 to Marshall and run, its a giant logistical nightmare.

Oh indeed. They reckon that 85% of the original Mecca has been demolished in the past thirty years. Kind of defeats the purpose of the pilgrimage if none of the original city is left.

Yeah even there own holy prophets house was demolished or slated for in another project or expansion, its all a huge industry for the bin larden group, they get loads of juicey contracts.

Merge in turn, all well and good till a driver has a big German car lol

I heard that the group currently in power in Saudi Arabia (salafists) do this to prevent people from realising the original, older versions of islam do not necessarily agree with salafist principles. They deliberately destroy historical islamic monuments.

I heard it was to stop people worshipping it as an idol. Which I always found kind of defeats the point of going to Mecca.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From the bbc

Hajj: Previous tragedies
2006: 364 pilgrims die in a crush at foot of Jamarat Bridge in Mina
1997: 340 pilgrims are killed when fire fuelled by high winds sweeps through Mina's tent city
1994: 270 pilgrims die in a stampede during the stoning ritual
1990: 1,426 pilgrims, mainly Asian, die in a stampede in an overcrowded tunnel leading to holy sites
1987: 402 people die when security forces break up an anti-US demonstration by Iranian pilgrims

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
What are you talking about?

Swarming to one city in millions is an insane, degenerate behaviour. No majorities or books writing that otherworldly entities demand so are going to change it.

Lets back up.
*Their religion requires they make the Hajj if they are able at least once intheir life. Its not only a great duty, but for many if not most its considered the high point of their religious life.

*The location is specific.

*They are a very successful religion.
How is that

1. insane? It just needs to be organized and it is. They have millions and millions of people come every year. RIch and Poor, all are called and coexist. Please find me another location on earth where that occurs.

2. How is that degenerate? They are going to a holy place.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Goliath wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
This happens every single year, at this point nobody is surprised.

It really does. Whenever you get thousands and thousands and thousands of people just standing around in a big clump, these things happen.

Hell, it happens at walmart on black Friday (though to a far lesser degree, admittedly).

Read about similar stories on pilgrimages in india as well.

Well, wikipedia is saying that the last time anything happened on this scale was 2006, so you're either incorrect or getting confused with other stampedes.

Im not referring to "Crush" deaths, but deaths in general, every single year a large number of people die on the Hajj, usually its from heart failure or exhaustion and other things like that. This years numbers are significantly higher because something terrible happened. The point I was trying to make though is that the Hajj kills people every year.

It's not surprising for there to be deaths in a population of three to four million people over a period of a couple of weeks.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
What are you talking about?

Swarming to one city in millions is an insane, degenerate behaviour. No majorities or books writing that otherworldly entities demand so are going to change it.

Lets back up.
*Their religion requires they make the Hajj if they are able at least once intheir life. Its not only a great duty, but for many if not most its considered the high point of their religious life.

*The location is specific.

*They are a very successful religion.
How is that

1. insane? It just needs to be organized and it is. They have millions and millions of people come every year. RIch and Poor, all are called and coexist. Please find me another location on earth where that occurs.

2. How is that degenerate? They are going to a holy place.

^This... a thousand times this.

I've often been critical of the Islamic religions... (really, every religion is fair game).

But this? This is a spiritual journey that's not that much different than the journey towards confirmation or the mitzvah. I'm sure Saudi Arabia doesn't want this and has always tried to mitigate these things.

 Frazzled wrote:
The fact millions go through every year, including two sects are are very very busily killing each other right now, is testament to their efforts.

No, it is not. If there was no sectarian violence between Sunni and Shia, that would be a testament to their efforts. The Hajj is supposed to demonstrate solidarity between Muslims, but that is an empty gesture if there is no solidarity between Muslims.

Bollocks.

Your statement is completely biased.

There are three to four million people at the hajj every year. If there was anything like the level of violence we are seeing in Iraq and Syria, etc it would be a bloodbath.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
The fact millions go through every year, including two sects are are very very busily killing each other right now, is testament to their efforts.

No, it is not. If there was no sectarian violence between Sunni and Shia, that would be a testament to their efforts. The Hajj is supposed to demonstrate solidarity between Muslims, but that is an empty gesture if there is no solidarity between Muslims.

Sorry, there is plenty of sectarian violence between Sunni and Shia but like most sectarian violence within a single religion the root is almost always race politics. For example, like the Troubles.

Sunni and Shia ought to get along, and normally they do. But if one tribe wants ascendancy over another, Sunni/shia is an effective excuse for a bloody political split.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:

Nah, sane people start with not having millions of people swarm into one place.

Rush hour..... major metropolitan city terminals.....world over....high income earners included.

Rush hour isn't pleasant, but is hardly 'insane'.

 Aszubaruzah Surn wrote:
No. You don't get to tar a whole religion like that, motyak

*sad trombone*
Well, not much relevant now that the mod smackdown hit.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Early records put it at 50,000 people, its gone a very long way in a century to 2 million plus, at a high of 3 million one year.

Yes advanced alot but they have hit what seems like the safe limit. No matter what they do they cannot scale up forever. The central mosque is forever being enlarged but still, at the price of demolishing most of the history.

It takes 100,000 to Marshall and run, its a giant logistical nightmare.

Oh indeed. They reckon that 85% of the original Mecca has been demolished in the past thirty years. Kind of defeats the purpose of the pilgrimage if none of the original city is left.

Yeah even there own holy prophets house was demolished or slated for in another project or expansion, its all a huge industry for the bin larden group, they get loads of juicey contracts.

Merge in turn, all well and good till a driver has a big German car lol

I heard that the group currently in power in Saudi Arabia (salafists) do this to prevent people from realising the original, older versions of islam do not necessarily agree with salafist principles. They deliberately destroy historical islamic monuments.

I heard it was to stop people worshipping it as an idol. Which I always found kind of defeats the point of going to Mecca.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From the bbc

Hajj: Previous tragedies
2006: 364 pilgrims die in a crush at foot of Jamarat Bridge in Mina
1997: 340 pilgrims are killed when fire fuelled by high winds sweeps through Mina's tent city
1994: 270 pilgrims die in a stampede during the stoning ritual
1990: 1,426 pilgrims, mainly Asian, die in a stampede in an overcrowded tunnel leading to holy sites
1987: 402 people die when security forces break up an anti-US demonstration by Iranian pilgrims

Except, those numbers while unfortunate, are still very small when you compare it to how many people are moving through the area in total. If things were really dangerous or poorly run, the stress of 2,00,000 people being run through the system would be making it break down a lot more explosively. Unfortunately, when you get into concentrations and numbers that large, statistical improbabilities get magnified as well.

Well looking at BBC its seeminlgly not at the bridge as such the site of the deaths is on the approach to the site of the pillars.

It's roughly from Google scale several km from where they where headed. So not the new bridge they built.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34346449

welshhoppo wrote:
From the BBC

Hajj: Previous tragedies
2006: 364 pilgrims die in a crush at foot of Jamarat Bridge in Mina
1997: 340 pilgrims are killed when fire fuelled by high winds sweeps through Mina's tent city
1994: 270 pilgrims die in a stampede during the stoning ritual
1990: 1,426 pilgrims, mainly Asian, die in a stampede in an overcrowded tunnel leading to holy sites
1987: 402 people die when security forces break up an anti-US demonstration by Iranian pilgrims

The list is much longer than that. There is a Mecca incident list on wiki with many more.

 Bookwrack wrote:

Except, those numbers while unfortunate, are still very small when you compare it to how many people are moving through the area in total. If things were really dangerous or poorly run, the stress of 2,00,000 people being run through the system would be making it break down a lot more explosively. Unfortunately, when you get into concentrations and numbers that large, statistical improbabilities get magnified as well.

Thats not a valid argument. Cancer kills more people every year than WW2, that doesnt absolve anyone.

Even if Hajj is statistically safe by accidents by volume there is no guarantee it is desevedly so as regular accidents and crime are not recorded in the press statistics. Though it must be said that there are a large number of pilgrims hospitals in Mecca and treatment if free for anyone journeying on Hajj by gift of the Kingdom.

However even that might not be the main problem, as Hajj is amongst other things a huge disease vector. Hajj infectiousness will be almost impossible to statisticise but is likely to be a significant factor in world health due to the volume of pilgrims, their close proximity, and where many of them come from.

In any case the regularity of large scale tramplings and structural collapses, is and should be alarming. King Salman is taking this seriously and the Saudis have poured massive investment into the pilgrimage sites and cannot really be blamed for the scale of Hajj as it is quite beyond the bounds of what people would expect even thirty years ago, let alone when it was written as a Pillar of Islam.

This is "insane" because, whatever is written in a book, this place is under their responsability, and to let so many people come in isn't safe.
We just had a proof.

THEY killed this poeple.

If, for a reason or another, one thousand people want to go in your house, I think it wouldn't be possible. Even if they really want it, and even if it is for a good reason (maybe they want to thanks you for being a good painter/wargamer, whatever you want).
Even if the idea is "holy" / kind / wonderful, when so many people want to come, it is not possible.

Think about tourism: a good way to discover the world, to be "culturally enriched", to make other people earn their money.
Who, that's a great idea !
Yes, but when millions people come in the same place, they waste/destroy/pollute it.
Not because they are bad, or the idea was bad, but because some times, you can't be so many in the same place without consequences.

 godardc wrote:
This is "insane" because, whatever is written in a book, this place is under their responsability, and to let so many people come in isn't safe.
We just had a proof.

THEY killed this poeple.

If, for a reason or another, one thousand people want to go in your house, I think it wouldn't be possible. Even if they really want it, and even if it is for a good reason (maybe they want to thanks you for being a good painter/wargamer, whatever you want).
Even if the idea is "holy" / kind / wonderful, when so many people want to come, it is not possible.

Think about tourism: a good way to discover the world, to be "culturally enriched", to make other people earn their money.
Who, that's a great idea !
Yes, but when millions people come in the same place, they waste/destroy/pollute it.
Not because they are bad, or the idea was bad, but because some times, you can't be so many in the same place without consequences.

I am no fan of Islam, but there isn't anything wrong with the Hajj Pilgrimage.

I'm not saying that's there is something wrong with any pilgrimage, sorry if I wrote badly.
Just, the organizer should put a limit, they can't let so many people in, in the same day, and hope everything will be ok.
I understand every individual muslim want/have to go there.
But sometimes, individuals good ideas are bad collectives ideas

There is a limit, and it's strictly enforced, only a certain amount of Hajj permits are issued each year and no-one gets in without one.
And, due to the nature of the Hajj, certain things have to happen on certain days, and the Hajj only lasts for a few days each year.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's not surprising for there to be deaths in a population of three to four million people over a period of a couple of weeks.

The World Cup gets about a million tourists. The Olympics gets about 600k. The numbers are lower, but more or less in the same level of magnitude, and they don't seem to produce tragedies like this. The world cup has them spread over multiple cities, so that is another factor why the impact might be less.

I think probably the major factor is that Saudi Arabia, for it's modern sheen, is still a wild west kind of place. Building regs might be similar, but they're not meaningfully enforced. I mean, people are shocked at the deaths of these pilgrims, they should probably go and see how many lowly paid overseas workers die in these construction sites each year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 godardc wrote:
Not because they are bad, or the idea was bad, but because some times, you can't be so many in the same place without consequences.

There are places in the world with 20 million people, that don't have regular disasters. There's nothing inherently dangerous about people coming for a short time, you just need sufficient infrastructure built to a certain standard of quality. And that's the actual issue.

 sebster wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's not surprising for there to be deaths in a population of three to four million people over a period of a couple of weeks.

The World Cup gets about a million tourists. The Olympics gets about 600k. The numbers are lower, but more or less in the same level of magnitude, and they don't seem to produce tragedies like this. The world cup has them spread over multiple cities, so that is another factor why the impact might be less.

This kind of crush tragedy is a danger wherever you get large numbers of people crowded together and crowd control goes wrong. For example the Heysel Stadium incident, the Akashi Bridge incident in Japan, and many other cases in various countries.

If it doesn't happen at the Olympics, that partly reflects the careful design of modern venues to prevent this kind of thing, together with high quality crowd control, and the fact that fewer people are gathered at any one venue at any time. For example the London Olympics 2012 had 70,000 volunteers who assisted in directing visitors to the correct venues, of which there were about 200 spread around the country. In contrast, the hajj requires something like 3,000,000 visitors to perform the stoning ceremony over a period of two days at one specific venue.

However my comment was more to point out that in a population of 3,000,000 you would expect about 1,000 to die of various mostly natural causes during the two weeks of the hajj.

This is not to say that the crush deaths are not a special case, but simply that it is unrealistic to expect there not to be any deaths at all.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 sebster wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's not surprising for there to be deaths in a population of three to four million people over a period of a couple of weeks.

The World Cup gets about a million tourists. The Olympics gets about 600k. The numbers are lower, but more or less in the same level of magnitude, and they don't seem to produce tragedies like this. The world cup has them spread over multiple cities, so that is another factor why the impact might be less.

This kind of crush tragedy is a danger wherever you get large numbers of people crowded together and crowd control goes wrong. For example the Heysel Stadium incident, the Akashi Bridge incident in Japan, and many other cases in various countries.

If it doesn't happen at the Olympics, that partly reflects the careful design of modern venues to prevent this kind of thing, together with high quality crowd control, and the fact that fewer people are gathered at any one venue at any time. For example the London Olympics 2012 had 70,000 volunteers who assisted in directing visitors to the correct venues, of which there were about 200 spread around the country. In contrast, the hajj requires something like 3,000,000 visitors to perform the stoning ceremony over a period of two days at one specific venue.

However my comment was more to point out that in a population of 3,000,000 you would expect about 1,000 to die of various mostly natural causes during the two weeks of the hajj.

This is not to say that the crush deaths are not a special case, but simply that it is unrealistic to expect there not to be any deaths at all.

Your numbers are correct if you assume that you have the same representation of people that you would have in a city of 3million, I don't know the break down of ages but I would assume that the numbers are skewed heavily towards a much younger population doing this. I know in Afghanistan we would see villagers lose a large number of younger people for a month or two while they went to the Hajj. Very few elderly people make the trip and I don't think anyone dying of Aids is going to be making hte trip

That's irrelevant really, because the point is that people die of all sorts of reasons all the time, not especially because they have gone on a pilgrimage.

I don't think Ghazkull was dismissing your point, just adding some nuance. Whilst a number of deaths can be expected, you won't find an equal distribution of people going on pilgrimage as you would in a normal population. The pilgrimage acts as a filter, so the number of deaths we should expect to see from natural causes will be significantly lower.

 Henry wrote:
I don't think Ghazkull was dismissing your point, just adding some nuance. Whilst a number of deaths can be expected, you won't find an equal distribution of people going on pilgrimage as you would in a normal population. The pilgrimage acts as a filter, so the number of deaths we should expect to see from natural causes will be significantly lower.

exactly, but due to the nature of the Hajj we see the death toll be significantly larger then it should be because of poor planning on behalf of the Saudi Government and the pilgrims going to the hajj. You should never have people succumbing to heat exhaustion. Your going to be traveling in one of the hottest places on the earth, millions of people are going to be there, plan accordingly.

Not like this is anything new.

Hajj is a public safety nightmare that has only gotten worse with expanded populations and urban development. Its also a wonderful cover for jihadi's to move about the ME. Its only the insane belief in "god" that perpetuates the nonsense. Expect worse incidents in the future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
This happens every single year, at this point nobody is surprised.

Naw, but there are damn sure plenty of people trying to spin this for their own political gain.

See: Iran.