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2015/10/02 03:45:51
Subject: Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
You can walk into any County clerk office in the United States and get a valid ID card.
Wrong. In Oklahoma our county clerks don't have anything to do with ID cards.
You can walk into any Post office in the USA and get a valid US Passport.
Wrong. Not all post offices are passport acceptance facilities.
Either of which are enough to satisfy the Voters ID law. What is the problem?
1) Cost
2) Required paperwork
3) Transportation - both means and distance
4) Hours of operation
5) Unable to take off work
Just as a start.
I understand that many people think that those are not "real" problems, but you should at least do some very basic research before you post stuff that is just completely wrong.
Frazzled wrote: If they still provide government issued ID at those offices then that mitigates MUCH of the concern. If you are going for a driver test you could drive to another county (I guess...meh).
I think this is probably the best way forward. At some point I think the Federal government has to recognise voter disenfranchisement is a Federal issue (civil rights and all that), and put in place a scheme that lets anyone get a national ID card for free.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Relapse wrote: It's pretty much what I thought, after reading your links. Alabama doesn't have money to keep crap open, so it's no big conspiracy. It's a case of the state being broke.
Sure, but with the budget pressures in mind it probably would have been a really smart idea not to put a really unnecessary voter ID law that meant you'd have to either maintain services in each county, or risk leaving some voters disenfranchised.
How do they ID people for liquor and cigarette sales, though, just to name a couple of the first things that come to my mind. I imagine the ID used for that is good enough to use at the polls.
I never get asked for my ID at the bar or liquor store.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/02 03:46:59
2015/10/02 03:47:08
Subject: Re:Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
Co'tor Shas wrote: Doesn't that cost money? Which is the main concern? Maybe it's just NY.
Anyway, the law it'self is unnecessary.
Pretty sure NY requires so sort of ID to vote (and voting is ever on 1 day).
Do you hear of any disenfranchisement in NY???
TBH, I'm not quite sure, I haven't actually voted yet.
I'm not, personally, that concerned that this will disenfranchise people (if people want to vote, they will be able too), I just think it's an unnecessary complication. It's just one more excuse for people to not vote. And our voter turnout is already depressingly low.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2015/10/02 03:47:59
Subject: Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
Co'tor Shas wrote: Doesn't that cost money? Which is the main concern? Maybe it's just NY.
Anyway, the law it'self is unnecessary.
CapJake even went to the trbule of coping it over here in this thread man, read it is not hard. They can get free IDs. Can we drop that falsehood now.
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
2015/10/02 03:57:47
Subject: Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
Relapse wrote: How do they ID people for liquor and cigarette sales, though, just to name a couple of the first things that come to my mind. I imagine the ID used for that is good enough to use at the polls.
Hush, you. There will be no utilization of common sense in the Off Topic forum.
Next thing you know, people will be giving each other the benefit of the doubt. Where will be be then? ANARCHY!!!!
2015/10/02 03:59:28
Subject: Re:Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
I strongly suspect that we can run through this entire thread without actually generating any new, original content at all; just copying and pasting from previous threads.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/02 04:39:35
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2015/10/02 04:03:37
Subject: Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
"To apply for a welfare program one must contact the local Human Service Department located in the government pages of the phone book. It may be listed as Human Services, Family Services or Adult and Family Services. An appointment is made with a case worker. The case worker will give a list of required documents needed at the appointment. Common documents asked for are proof of income, ID, and utility bills or other proof of residence"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/02 04:05:33
2015/10/02 04:05:43
Subject: Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
How to Apply for a Welfare Program
To apply for a welfare program one must contact the local Human Service Department located in the government pages of the phone book. It may be listed as Human Services, Family Services or Adult and Family Services. An appointment is made with a case worker. The case worker will give a list of required documents needed at the appointment. Common documents asked for are proof of income, ID, and utility bills or other proof of residency.
EDIT: dammit, was ninja'ed by your edit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/02 04:06:12
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2015/10/02 04:07:06
Subject: Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
Heh,heh,heh. It seems to me if someone can go through the acrobatics of getting public assistance, if for whatever reason they didn't have one, getting state ID would be child's play if they really wanted it.
The whole thing we forget in this back and forth though, that bears repeating is that there were major cutbacks throughout programs, parks, offices, etc. in Alabama. This is not something targeting the poor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/02 04:11:13
2015/10/02 04:13:13
Subject: Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
Ghazkuul wrote: You can walk into any County clerk office in the United States and get a valid ID card. You can walk into any Post office in the USA and get a valid US Passport. Either of which are enough to satisfy the Voters ID law. What is the problem?
The passport costs $135. Which is a lot to pay when you're not travelling anywhere, and just want to vote.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2015/10/02 04:14:21
Subject: Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
Ghazkuul wrote: You can walk into any County clerk office in the United States and get a valid ID card. You can walk into any Post office in the USA and get a valid US Passport. Either of which are enough to satisfy the Voters ID law. What is the problem?
The passport costs $135. Which is a lot to pay when you're not travelling anywhere, and just want to vote.
Which makes it a good thing you can get a state ID for next to nothing or free.
2015/10/02 04:19:59
Subject: Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
Relapse wrote: How do they ID people for liquor and cigarette sales, though, just to name a couple of the first things that come to my mind. I imagine the ID used for that is good enough to use at the polls.
No idea. Perhaps people get someone else to buy, or perhaps places don't check ID.
What we do know is that somewhere around 10% of people in the US lack photo ID.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/02 04:29:45
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2015/10/02 04:20:06
Subject: Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
Either of which are enough to satisfy the Voters ID law. What is the problem?
1) Cost
2) Required paperwork
3) Transportation - both means and distance
4) Hours of operation
5) Unable to take off work
Just as a start.
I understand that many people think that those are not "real" problems, but you should at least do some very basic research before you post stuff that is just completely wrong.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2015/10/02 04:29:08
Subject: Re:Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
Relapse wrote: Which makes it a good thing you can get a state ID for next to nothing or free.
Which is fine in some circumstances, and a pain in the ass in others (when the voter ID law was shot down in Texas the judge mentioned some people would have had to travel for 100 odd miles to get to their nearest office).
At which I'm really left asking why anyone wants to make voting more difficult? If it was to combat fraud then sure, but as has been pointed in so many threads on this issue voter ID fraud is utterly trivial. So why then, why make voting more difficult? Surely any person that considered democracy important would be working or supporting laws that made voting easier and more common? Not supporting laws that made voting even slightly more difficult?
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2015/10/02 04:31:07
Subject: Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
Ghazkuul wrote: You can walk into any County clerk office in the United States and get a valid ID card. You can walk into any Post office in the USA and get a valid US Passport. Either of which are enough to satisfy the Voters ID law. What is the problem?
The passport costs $135. Which is a lot to pay when you're not travelling anywhere, and just want to vote.
Which makes it a good thing you can get a state ID for next to nothing or free.
And it also ignores, as always, the fact that the cost for an ID, especially for poor people, is not just [cost of ID]. It is really: [cost of ID] + [cost of transportation] + [loss of income while trying to get ID] + ([cost of obtaining documents needed to get ID] + [cost of transportation] + [loss of income white trying to get document)*[number of documents needed].
So for a hypothetical scenario in Oklahoma where someone has to get a new ID, which requires a copy of your birth certificate to prove that you are a citizen, who manages to do all of this in one day so they only have to take off from their minimum wage job this one day, and let's say that they take the bus so they don't pay the cost of gas, we end up with:
$20 for the ID + $4 for an all day bus pass + $15 for the birth certificate + $58 because they are not working today = $97 for their ID card. If they make more than minimum wage then the impact of unpaid leave is even higher. If they live somewhere where they don't have public transportation the cost will be higher. If they live somewhere where there is no issuing agency for ID cards nearby the cost will be higher.
And $97 is a lot of money when you are poor.
Let's stop pretending that there is "no cost".
And when people come out with the "they can get a free card" line it always ignores all the other costs required to get your "free" ID.
Relapse wrote: How do they ID people for liquor and cigarette sales, though, just to name a couple of the first things that come to my mind. I imagine the ID used for that is good enough to use at the polls.
No idea. Perhaps people get someone else to buy, or perhaps places don't check ID.
What we do know is that somewhere around 10% of people in the US lack photo ID.
There is also always the crazy idea that maybe, just maybe, not all poor people are blowing their money on alcohol and cigarettes.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/02 04:33:53
2015/10/02 04:35:22
Subject: Re:Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
I don't know about Austrailia, but here in the States, you absolutely need a valid ID of some sort to fething function.
You still can't buy porn or nudie magazines at the store w/o having an ID. (internets notwithstanding )
Ouze wrote: Sure, but you don't have a protected right to have easy access to alcohol* enshrined in the constitution. As voting is the cornerstone of our democracy - in fact, the very foundation upon which all of our other rights lie - any impingement or barriers to exercising it should be carefully constructed to have the least possible impact.
*Although lord knows Ben Franklin tried, he just couldn't get the other guys on board.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2015/10/02 04:41:41
Subject: Re:Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
It depends. The only reason I carry mine around nowadays is for my university ID (and that's only because I need it to access the compute system(. As long as you aren't driving or buying stuff that is ID restricted (none of which you need, or should be buying if you are really poor). I can't remember the last time I've needed to show my ID. Although, TBF, my experience is rather limited to a particular area.
And, I will say again, that they whole argument about whether the law is disenfranchising people is moot, as the law is unnecessary, period. Voter fraud is practically non-existent.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2015/10/02 04:44:06
Subject: Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
Ghazkuul wrote: You can walk into any County clerk office in the United States and get a valid ID card. You can walk into any Post office in the USA and get a valid US Passport. Either of which are enough to satisfy the Voters ID law. What is the problem?
The passport costs $135. Which is a lot to pay when you're not travelling anywhere, and just want to vote.
Which makes it a good thing you can get a state ID for next to nothing or free.
And it also ignores, as always, the fact that the cost for an ID, especially for poor people, is not just [cost of ID]. It is really: [cost of ID] + [cost of transportation] + [loss of income while trying to get ID] + ([cost of obtaining documents needed to get ID] + [cost of transportation] + [loss of income white trying to get document)*[number of documents needed].
So for a hypothetical scenario in Oklahoma where someone has to get a new ID, which requires a copy of your birth certificate to prove that you are a citizen, who manages to do all of this in one day so they only have to take off from their minimum wage job this one day, and let's say that they take the bus so they don't pay the cost of gas, we end up with:
$20 for the ID + $4 for an all day bus pass + $15 for the birth certificate + $58 because they are not working today = $97 for their ID card. If they make more than minimum wage then the impact of unpaid leave is even higher. If they live somewhere where they don't have public transportation the cost will be higher. If they live somewhere where there is no issuing agency for ID cards nearby the cost will be higher.
And $97 is a lot of money when you are poor.
Let's stop pretending that there is "no cost".
And when people come out with the "they can get a free card" line it always ignores all the other costs required to get your "free" ID.
Relapse wrote: How do they ID people for liquor and cigarette sales, though, just to name a couple of the first things that come to my mind. I imagine the ID used for that is good enough to use at the polls.
No idea. Perhaps people get someone else to buy, or perhaps places don't check ID.
What we do know is that somewhere around 10% of people in the US lack photo ID.
There is also always the crazy idea that maybe, just maybe, not all poor people are blowing their money on alcohol and cigarettes.
As I said, if someone can get the scratch together to go down to the public assistance office, it's less effort to get an ID. Who's saying all poor people blow their money on alcohol and cigarettes?
2015/10/02 04:45:46
Subject: Re:Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
I don't know about Austrailia, but here in the States, you absolutely need a valid ID of some sort to fething function.
You still can't buy porn or nudie magazines at the store w/o having an ID. (internets notwithstanding )
Ouze wrote: Sure, but you don't have a protected right to have easy access to alcohol* enshrined in the constitution. As voting is the cornerstone of our democracy - in fact, the very foundation upon which all of our other rights lie - any impingement or barriers to exercising it should be carefully constructed to have the least possible impact.
*Although lord knows Ben Franklin tried, he just couldn't get the other guys on board.
Exactly that. If you have ID enough to get public assistance, you can easily get ID to vote, regardless of someone trying to compare it to a labor of Hercules.
2015/10/02 04:50:26
Subject: Re:Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
I don't know about Austrailia, but here in the States, you absolutely need a valid ID of some sort to fething function.
You really don't. And that is the honest to goodness truth and not some liberal media nonsense that people are trying to fool everybody else with.
I know that the word gets overused a lot, but your worldview that "you absolutely need a valid ID of some sort to fething function" is the very definition of privilege.
There are a lot of people that never had a reason to get an ID and never needed to have an ID. There are people that have been married forever who have always had a spouse that did all the working, all the banking, all the bill paying, all the driving, and every other activity that would have required an ID. They really had no reason to ever need an ID. There are people who never had a birth certificate and now have no realistic means to obtain one because they might honestly not even know where they were born so they would be unable to prove their citizenship to even get an ID in many states now.
There are people who make their money by getting paid under the table or by begging on the street. They do no banking and always pay cash when they buy something. They live on the streets, shelters, shady apartments that rent to you for the right price without any paperwork, shady motels. They have no bills because they never could afford to turn any utilities on to begin with.
These are real people living a life that you have no fething clue about. It's one thing to pretend that none of these are barriers that are big enough to keep you from having an ID. It's another thing to just pretend that they don't even exist because you just think that everybody has had the exact same life that you have.
Hell, I know I tell this little nugget every single fething time this comes up, and it's just a single anecdote in the sea of "everybody can get an ID nothing to it", but I do not have a birth certificate and it is impossible for me to obtain one because it simply doesn't exist. It burned up in a warehouse fire when the military shut down their bases and there is ZERO record of me being born as a US citizen. It took months, multiple trips to the court, and the cost of a US passport and many certified mailings to get my proof of citizenship that I need to get my $20 ID card.
You still can't buy porn or nudie magazines at the store w/o having an ID. (internets notwithstanding )
Despite the fact that this is an asinine statement that is completely wrong, it's also irrelevant because maybe, just maybe, poor people don't blow their money on Hustler magazine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Relapse wrote: Exactly that. If you have ID enough to get public assistance, you can easily get ID to vote, regardless of someone trying to compare it to a labor of Hercules.
At this point you are just sitting there typing in "it's easy to get an ID" over and over again while willfully ignoring facts. And you can't do anything about someone that is making a conscious choice to remain willfully ignorant.
I wonder if there are poor people that can't even get welfare because they don't have the required ID to get it. I know, sounds crazy, and probably totally never happens.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/02 04:54:13
2015/10/02 04:56:07
Subject: Alabama takes the next step in voter ID laws
I wonder if there are poor people that can't even get welfare because they don't have the required ID to get it. I know, sounds crazy, and probably totally never happens.
D... the case worker would help the poor to get their IDs first.
Hell, in MO/IL, they'll help you with requisite documentations to get the IDs... WHILE concurrently processing any welfare request at the same time.
)
