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 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Sniper rifles in 40k are not Sniper rifles, they are marksmanship weapons, the terrible statline, bad accuracy (for a Sniper weapon) and very little chance to actually get a precision shot all add up to a non Sniper semi auto marksman rifle.

Sniper rifles should just pick target and fleshbane, pinning, ap2 on a 6, always hit on a 2+, that would make snipers of any kind excellent, but not as mobile as the line infantry.

Vindicare?

Still only strx with normal shot and can be look out sir'd, so nope, even the best sniper isn't even a Sniper.

SMs usually employ shock & awe tactics. They make a huge first impression then fight ferociously in c&c or short ranged fire fights. Long rang support is usually provided by artillery. Sniping is a waste of precious manpower & relegated to the scout companys.

 Red Marine wrote:
SMs usually employ shock & awe tactics. They make a huge first impression then fight ferociously in c&c or short ranged fire fights. Long rang support is usually provided by artillery. Sniping is a waste of precious manpower & relegated to the scout companys.

Yep. Another reason marines don't really work as a conventional force, why snipe when you can drop 100+ tons of steel and ceramite right on top of the enemy command sections, failing that, ram a 100 ton invincible tank up their arse haha

I wish my cultists got sniper rifles.

a bunch of BS3 cultists taking pot shots at 36" away is what I wish I had.

 Formosa wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Sniper rifles in 40k are not Sniper rifles, they are marksmanship weapons, the terrible statline, bad accuracy (for a Sniper weapon) and very little chance to actually get a precision shot all add up to a non Sniper semi auto marksman rifle.

Sniper rifles should just pick target and fleshbane, pinning, ap2 on a 6, always hit on a 2+, that would make snipers of any kind excellent, but not as mobile as the line infantry.

Vindicare?

Still only strx with normal shot and can be look out sir'd, so nope, even the best sniper isn't even a Sniper.

It appears we're talking about the background, not the rules.

 Formosa wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
SMs usually employ shock & awe tactics. They make a huge first impression then fight ferociously in c&c or short ranged fire fights. Long rang support is usually provided by artillery. Sniping is a waste of precious manpower & relegated to the scout companys.

Yep. Another reason marines don't really work as a conventional force, why snipe when you can drop 100+ tons of steel and ceramite right on top of the enemy command sections, failing that, ram a 100 ton invincible tank up their arse haha

Indeed.

It's also somewhat curious just how few weapons are in a squad relative to something like modern infantry. If one looks at the way say, a US Army Stryker team is typically deployed, a 9 man squad will have the equivalent of Krak missile launcher, two Grenade Launchers, and two Heavy Stubbers, and a Sniper Rifle (more accurately a DMR) on top of their IFV and Lasgun equivalent assault rifles and typically function in a manner consistent with the "combat squads" special rule. When you look at infantry units in 40k, they're typically much less lavishly equipped, with pretty much just "veteran" units (e.g. Sternguard or IG Vets) that are equipped to anything resembling this level.

The lack of special or heavy weapons in SM squads is a real pain in the butt. With the rampant power creep in the game assault, tac, & dev squads could all use another hvy or aslt weapon.

That being said, in the fluff a bolter is a fully automatic 20mm, two stage rocket with a shaped charge armor piercing head. One day they may make the bolters fluff match its table top performance, like they did for gaus & shuriken. Hell, if a bolter perfomed like a shoota I'd be over joyed.

Of course there is a bit of a modern fire team aspect to Tac squads. You can split a 10 man tac sqd into 2, five man teams based around a heavy or special weapon. You can leave a fire team with a heavy weapon behind in cover to give long range fire support to the more assault oriented team. With a special weapon & a vet sarge with combi weapon & a power weapon in a rhino/razor its a solid tactic...on paper. But 3 five man meq teams with a single heavy weapon is almost 300 points. Totaly ineffective. A vetsarge...with a power weapon AND a combi? Madness. Maybe one day they'll match our fluff with SM performance on the table top.

So I was wrong about the "on the fly modification". I went and looked it up. I was thinking of the "Ultra Pattern Mark IX Sniper Rifle" that the deathwatch uses.
It is modified to fit each individual battle brother.

But yeah- some really good answers.

The marines should all be dead already because of Codex Astartes.

Martel732 wrote:
The marines should all be dead already because of Codex Astartes.

Only if they read it wrong, it's meant to be viewed as a helpful guideline not "YOU MUST DO THESE THINGS TO WIN".

Actually, in 30k the Reconnaissance squad can take sniper rifles.
Five Tacticals including Sergeant with sniper rifles are 150 pts.

 Formosa wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Sniper rifles in 40k are not Sniper rifles, they are marksmanship weapons, the terrible statline, bad accuracy (for a Sniper weapon) and very little chance to actually get a precision shot all add up to a non Sniper semi auto marksman rifle.

Sniper rifles should just pick target and fleshbane, pinning, ap2 on a 6, always hit on a 2+, that would make snipers of any kind excellent, but not as mobile as the line infantry.

Vindicare?

Still only strx with normal shot and can be look out sir'd, so nope, even the best sniper isn't even a Sniper.

Well there is no 'normal' shot, since you have to pick either Shield Breaker (Ignores Invuln Saves), Turbo-penetrator (S10 against Vehicles/D3 Wounds against non-vehicles) or Hellfire (wound on 2+). All Assassins also put a -2 penalty on Look Out Sir attempts as well.

So a Vindicare would hit on a 2+ (re-roll misses on 4+), precision shot on anything but a snapshot, wound a 2+ with AP2 if choosing Hellfire round, ignore any cover, and put a -2 penalty to Look Out Sir. That's a pretty mean sniper, and is superb at taking out special/heavy weapons in a unit. Unfortunately that's about all Vindicares are actually good at...

Real snipers in the real world do not have some version of fleshbane, pinning, ap2 on a 6, always hit on a 2+.

That's only in video games. In the real world a sniper rifle is just a rifle that is accurate. They are not death wands. And it is accurate if you have time to aim it. Which is not the case in the scale of time represented in a 40K game, in which a turn appears to be a few seconds..

There is no point tactically for Marines to have sniper rifles, as mentioned. Marines are combat units. Sniper weapons require someone to dig in, preferably somewhere concealed, and take time to set up shots, not moving around. Sniper weapons are useless.

Well except Raven Guard but they somehow manage to be stealthy in power armor.

I could see them having the equivaent of a DMR in a Tac Squad, but Sniper Rifles would be useless in anything but Scout Squads or designated Sniper teams (spotter and gunner), for the exact reasons Alcibiades mentioned. Of course, Space Marines spend decades mastering their craft, centuries even, if they survive, so they could probably easily become the masters of real-life quickscoping

Alcibiades wrote:
Real snipers in the real world do not have some version of fleshbane, pinning, ap2 on a 6, always hit on a 2+.

That's only in video games. In the real world a sniper rifle is just a rifle that is accurate. They are not death wands. And it is accurate if you have time to aim it. Which is not the case in the scale of time represented in a 40K game, in which a turn appears to be a few seconds..

There is no point tactically for Marines to have sniper rifles, as mentioned. Marines are combat units. Sniper weapons require someone to dig in, preferably somewhere concealed, and take time to set up shots, not moving around. Sniper weapons are useless.

Well except Raven Guard but they somehow manage to be stealthy in power armor.

I mean, if we are talking about marines who dig in, aren't the Imperial Fists known for siege stuff?
I could see a few marksmen being deployed to take off the heads of anyone who pops out for a look.

And... I think we left the real world behind like 38k ago.

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's also somewhat curious just how few weapons are in a squad relative to something like modern infantry. If one looks at the way say, a US Army Stryker team is typically deployed, a 9 man squad will have the equivalent of Krak missile launcher, two Grenade Launchers, and two Heavy Stubbers, and a Sniper Rifle (more accurately a DMR) on top of their IFV and Lasgun equivalent assault rifles and typically function in a manner consistent with the "combat squads" special rule. When you look at infantry units in 40k, they're typically much less lavishly equipped.

On the other hand, how long does an engagement really last in 40k? In real time it would probably only take couple of minutes for the in game events to pan out, maybe less. A modern unit might "deploy" with all that equipment, but that kind of deployment would be more analogous to marines arriving on the planet. If we're talking about how they would spread out and equip themselves for a 2 minute assault... They might also choose offload the stuff that they didn't immediately need.


Another reason why Marines might not use sniper rifles might be because of something like chivalry. In olden times it was considered cowardly for Knights to use ranged weapons like bows. Perhaps for a Space Marine the idea of hiding and sniping at the enemy from a distance is just a bit undignified, and unbecoming of one of the Emperor's finest.

 Smacks wrote:
Another reason why Marines might not use sniper rifles might be because of something like chivalry. In olden times it was considered cowardly for Knights to use ranged weapons like bows. Perhaps for a Space Marine the idea of hiding and sniping at the enemy from a distance is just a bit undignified, and unbecoming of one of the Emperor's finest.

As a historical reactor I can tell you that's just not true.
Knights, given the chance, shot the heck out of bows (Obviously cavalry units were not often using those- but the caste totally did and were expected to be hella training in it).

Alcibiades wrote:
Real snipers in the real world do not have some version of fleshbane, pinning, ap2 on a 6, always hit on a 2+.

Well, unless they're using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-materiel_rifle style weapons. I think a 50 cal probably ought to count as fleshbane.

Bolters are, at minimum, 75 cal. So I doubt it.

 FalseCypher wrote:
As a historical reactor I can tell you that's just not true.
Knights, given the chance, shot the heck out of bows (Obviously cavalry units were not often using those- but the caste totally did and were expected to be hella training in it).

There are numerous sources that say certain weapons such as daggers and crossbows etc... were considered less honorable according to the code of chivalry. That is not to say that they weren't used. Just that there wasn't any honor in using them. Whether it is true or not is beside the point anyway.

Fluff wise, it makes sense as you wouldn't equip your long range sniper units with heavy armour. Think of the Space Marines as a sort of knight unit, they're there to march into front line combat, but snipers are more of a Longbow unit, they're strong, but they have lighter armour as the only time they expect to be engaged is once the enemy forces are already pruned.

I think it was the Battle of Agincourt that displayed this the most, as the bowmen used the muddy fields to bog down the French knights, peppering them with arrows, before engaging in melee combat. It probably didn't hurt that Longbow men had incredible strength in one of their arms, which was observed in their skeletal structure being deformed, so they weren't exactly weak in melee either.

All Marines are "snipers" though. They all have autosenses and targetters and genetically enhanced sight and reflexes. I'm not sure how much more accurate you could make them with a "DMR".

 wuestenfux wrote:
Actually, in 30k the Reconnaissance squad can take sniper rifles.
Five Tacticals including Sergeant with sniper rifles are 150 pts.

But scouts weren't a thing back then either. That's a tactical role that's since been relegated to the trainees.

Presumably because sniper rifles are typically stealth weapon. Most Space Marines aren't exactly the picture of stealth in their bright, garishly colored armor. They might as well use boltguns.