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War Kitten wrote: I just want to say this, we have no indication that the game might be half-baked, by what I've seen the game is looking to be quite promising, it will require patches to help fix the bugs, but I'm looking forward to it.
Making pre-order a bigger deal is a sign that it might be and that the gameplay is probably staged in some form or another. At least that's one possibility. That or the fact they're trying to get more people to pre-order and maybe it's not 100% patched yet. At this point I'm fine with it. Nothing creative assembly can realistically do will ever compare to 'Age of Sigmar' and the death of warhammer fantasy.
Ugh don't open that can of worms. AoS is fine for those who like it (including myself) and those who don't can still play WHFB.
CA has mentioned some interest in the AoS area, but they're going to have to wait to see where AoS goes models/fluff wise.
I played Empire, I played a lot of Empire, several hundred hours worth in fact.
I was at the point where I had literally conquered the entire world but had left India completely alone and intact. I made armies, loss of armies, rat for a massive simultaneous assault on every region of India at once. Landed... And then Creative Assemble released a patch, breaking trade income. I then went to -150000 gold every turn, my whole army rebelled, cities and towns did so as well. The campaign, I has spent literally hundreds of hours on was completely wrecked.
There's no chance in heck I would recommend anyone buy this as a preorder.
There's nothing abnormal here for the industry these days. $60US launch day price, and day one DLC, is standard for high profile titles like this one. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. No one's forcing you to do so, and I've certainly voted with my own wallet in the past. But kindly take your whines somewhere else so that we can focus on talking about the substance of the game instead of whines about price points and sales tactics.
Eumerin wrote: But kindly take your whines somewhere else so that we can focus on...
...whining about whining?
Would seem so, but I understand what he means thougth.
Looking forwards to the game, but somewhat sceptical to CA making it after their latest blunders with Rome 2 and the following avalanch of "culture" packs, and okayish expansions. But hopefully I will be proven wrong, and the game will be well made and fun to play.
I think te best option with these games is to wait for the Gold versions, with all the DLC and bug fixes in place, sometimes for cheaper than the initial release.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I'm hearing a lot of backlash and a lot of down votes on the chaos day one DLC announcement.
A big issue is that when people buy a game, they assume that they're buying the whole game. Not buying access to parts of the game and then having to pay for access to the rest of the game later. It's not even really DLC. The faction is already in the game and everything. You're just being 'charged' for a few lines of code that let you play it.
A "few" Is several hundreds of lines of code.
Those races do deserve the price tag. If you have seen the development cost for each race, you would be singing a different tune.
Day 1 DLC has always been unpopular with gamers since the beginning of time. Chaos was originally not suppose to be in Total War Warhammer. So in this case it is Extra DLC. They originally had it slated for only four races, (Empire, Orks, Dwarves, and Vampire Counts). It is pretty interesting though the backlash has happened. As a developer I can see why they wanted to go the route, but it is not a very popular thing to do.
There's nothing abnormal here for the industry these days. $60US launch day price, and day one DLC, is standard for high profile titles like this one. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. No one's forcing you to do so, and I've certainly voted with my own wallet in the past. But kindly take your whines somewhere else so that we can focus on talking about the substance of the game instead of whines about price points and sales tactics.
I am inclined to agree.
Preorder bonuses are a thing. And the people who have preorder are considered fans or dedicated. My friend preordered halo 5 and he got extra stuff that someone who did not preorder halo 5 would not get. Should other people be angry he got this extra stuff for free or day one dlc? No. It is pretty childish to think that the game company is being greedy. It is a business after all, and DLC helps pay for development costs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/28 12:19:31
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Chaos was going to be in the original game as NPCs. The few (a couple of hundred, if true, is still not much) lines of code required are nothing, and far from worth €5,-. This was developed alongside the other races!
And a whole new faction is a lot different from the two weapon variants and skins you get as a Halo 5 pre-order bonus...
Definitely. Creative assembly aren't known for releasing bug free and fully functional games on release (I think the last one was Medieval 2...) so its always wise to wait a few months unless you really, really have to play with little computer orcs.
I thought for a second you were talking about MediEvil 2.
I'm excited for Total Warhammer. I don't understand how people are STILL up in arms about preorder DLC nearly 7 years after they started pushing it.
At this point people, its par for the course, and you're going to accept it as a standard for release regardless of the game.
Since EVERY AAA game and most others (outside of indie) is using it as a business model.
Its already proven it's success, and nobody in the industry is paying attention to the voices when the numbers speak for themselves.
- 10000+ pts
Imperial Knights- 5 Standard Knights / 3 Cerastus Knights
Officio Assassinorum - 4 Assassins
CSM - 500pts? Maybe? Its from the Officio Assassinorum box so I'm pretty sure its not enough to run in a CAD
Vampire Lords- I have no idea I bought it like two days before I left country and they're still in storage so I'll have to see when I get back.]
thenoobbomb wrote: Chaos was going to be in the original game as NPCs. The few (a couple of hundred, if true, is still not much) lines of code required are nothing, and far from worth €5,-. This was developed alongside the other races!
And a whole new faction is a lot different from the two weapon variants and skins you get as a Halo 5 pre-order bonus...
You forgot to factor in
Modelling
Texturing
Posing
Animation
Effects
Distrubition
Finalization
Art
design
player interfacing
and Balancing
They are also wanting to make more races, so the more money they make, the more races you will see in DLC.
DLC is made during the period where designers are doing nothing, its things that were supposed to be in the game but they couldn't put it in. Same thing with Day 1 DLC, they wanted it to be in the game, but they ran out of time with the original shippable product.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
DLC is made during the period where designers are doing nothing, its things that were supposed to be in the game but they couldn't put it in. Same thing with Day 1 DLC, they wanted it to be in the game, but they ran out of time with the original shippable product.
That most Day 1 DLC is already on the disk when you get it would seem to suggest otherwise. Hell some devs put upwards of 2 years worth of DLC on the disk (looking at you Capcom!)
DLC is made during the period where designers are doing nothing, its things that were supposed to be in the game but they couldn't put it in. Same thing with Day 1 DLC, they wanted it to be in the game, but they ran out of time with the original shippable product.
Most Day 1 DLC is cut DLC from the original content. It gets developed as part of the game but then cut from the game and is sold off individually. It's delivered on the disc / in the download and just needs to be activated with a very simple mechanism. IIrc, Day 1 DLC has a piracy rate of 80+% which isn't really surprising.
thenoobbomb wrote: Chaos was going to be in the original game as NPCs. The few (a couple of hundred, if true, is still not much) lines of code required are nothing, and far from worth €5,-. This was developed alongside the other races!
And a whole new faction is a lot different from the two weapon variants and skins you get as a Halo 5 pre-order bonus...
You forgot to factor in
Modelling
Texturing
Posing
Animation
Effects
Distrubition
Finalization
Art
design
player interfacing
and Balancing
They are also wanting to make more races, so the more money they make, the more races you will see in DLC.
DLC is made during the period where designers are doing nothing, its things that were supposed to be in the game but they couldn't put it in. Same thing with Day 1 DLC, they wanted it to be in the game, but they ran out of time with the original shippable product.
And you forgot that Chaos is already in the game, you just need to pay to access them as a playable race.
With the amount of sales games have nowadays, day 1 DLC is ridiculous.
Meh, I'm not pre-ordering most likely because of the issues I had with Empire. i'll hold off until it's ready and I feel like my computer can rock it. But I do love it and if I thought it was going to be perfect on launch I'd pre-order.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
I used to think similarily until I got into the development cycle and began to understand it a bit better. Is deplorable? No. Its very much like extra features to people who buy something early and remain loyal to a brand. Yes to the average onlooker it looks sketchy, but it is understandable. For Example:
Do you remember of dawn of war 1, and how the imperial guard were technically in the first game, (not expansions). They were extremely playable at that level just need fine tuning. Or hell Warcraft 3. Originally there was suppose to be a main race implemented into its expansion (the naga) But was removed for balance reasons, then they had 5 other heroes they were planning on adding to the main game, they came out later as a free download, but they were delayed. The amount of time they spent actually make those models was pretty expensive at the time. There is three entire months were game developers sit around doing nothing while they wait for the certification process to go through.
Same with Chaos they needed improvements and would like money for it.
ITs very much why game companies want money
Very few of that 60$ actually goes to the developer.
Publishers get most of the money, developers get 15$ per game sold. If you buy DLC that money goes directly to the developers. I am all in or support of that. Because they make the games I enjoy and they deserve my money. Not the publishers.
. IIrc, Day 1 DLC has a piracy rate of 80+% which isn't really surprising.
That I am calling bullgak on. Unless you can provide a source.
Meh, I'm not pre-ordering most likely because of the issues I had with Empire. i'll hold off until it's ready and I feel like my computer can rock it. But I do love it and if I thought it was going to be perfect on launch I'd pre-order.
Thats my general rule of thumb, I only buy things if they are on sale and are working. Infact I have 155 Games on steam and I have played everyone of them. (Exxcept three of them but thats only because they don't work ;.;, ubisoft!!!!!!)
This day and age. Anything that works on launch is a miracle in general.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
. IIrc, Day 1 DLC has a piracy rate of 80+% which isn't really surprising.
That I am calling bullgak on. Unless you can provide a source.
I'll try to get back to it. Mind's blurry, but iirc, it was based on Dragon Age 2 and any Mass Effect DLC thingy comparing units sold to downloaded torrents / unlockers via two or three oneclickfilehosters.
Your calculation is kinda outdated, tho, as Steam greatly revolutionized the video game market and now provides much better margins for games...while at the same time, drastically lowering a game's value.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/28 21:01:06
. IIrc, Day 1 DLC has a piracy rate of 80+% which isn't really surprising.
That I am calling bullgak on. Unless you can provide a source.
I'll try to get back to it. Mind's blurry, but iirc, it was based on Dragon Age 2 and any Mass Effect DLC thingy comparing units sold to downloaded torrents / unlockers via mega.
Once you provide a source I will be happy to read it
Though I think you could blame that on ORIGIN more than Day one dlcs.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
I'll try find you a source on that one, but it's a bit hard with all the stuff about the pre-order "bonus".
The reveal trailer had Chaos in it, though, and I recall they answered questions about if Chaos would be playable with saying they'd be a NPC Faction in the game.
War Kitten wrote: I just want to say this, we have no indication that the game might be half-baked, by what I've seen the game is looking to be quite promising, it will require patches to help fix the bugs, but I'm looking forward to it.
Making pre-order a bigger deal is a sign that it might be and that the gameplay is probably staged in some form or another. At least that's one possibility. That or the fact they're trying to get more people to pre-order and maybe it's not 100% patched yet. At this point I'm fine with it. Nothing creative assembly can realistically do will ever compare to 'Age of Sigmar' and the death of warhammer fantasy.
Ugh don't open that can of worms. AoS is fine for those who like it (including myself) and those who don't can still play WHFB.
CA has mentioned some interest in the AoS area, but they're going to have to wait to see where AoS goes models/fluff wise.
As a previous fantasy player I wouldn't give a crap about 'age of sigmar' if our choices after warhammer fantasy died were not play 'age of sigmar' or get out. If I could play fantasy or 'age of sigmar' with the models I wouldn't care but I'm bitter because our universe was killed and gutted to make that one. I would've been happier if they just killed of fantasy completely at times.
I had the misfortune of playing skaven a 7th edition book in 8th edition with an 8 page FAQ. The issue with warhammer fantasy ending is that it became harder to get rules, previous FAQ's (something GW no longer needed for a game it didn't support), players would never receive new models for warhammer fantasy, finding players for a now defunct game is hard and last I heard you are not allowed to play warhammer fantasy in a GW (probably to support their crappy abomination made out of its remains). Finding players for a defunct game has also become increasingly hard and it's just not worth it. I was waiting patiently for a skaven army book for 9th edition to at least help out. Age of Sigmar was dressed up as 9th edition after End Times ended. After useless additions to 40k like specialty chainsword packs for space marines I was expecting something nice. Then on July 4th almost as a way of saying 'F- You Yankees!' (since it was the usa independence day holiday and GW are british) GW announces this garbage or starts it. I saw people drop their jaw and put a hand against their face in shock. It took me at least a week to stop being pissed about this and I didn't take this nearly as bad as many (some of which played 40k or hadn't played fantasy in a while). I loved the Old World and if they didn't change everything and force us to gobble it down like the idiot tools they imagined us to be then we weren't a customer. GW is losing money and they can't figure out why. One reason is because you don't make some massive several month campaign ending in a game universe's destruction (which lasted 28 years and was the flagship game of the company for the longest time) forcing it to be hundreds dollars worth that you expect the customer to just eat up and then make all the books defunct as well as the game, rulebook, army books and everything but the models and paints and if you play the game and enjoyed it then tough luck for you because you're a massive sucker for buying into GW.
-------
As far as Day One DLC goes i'll happily buy it and the game for pre-order. The idea that you 40k players can complain about a limited edition tau defense line (that you'd probably never have bought anyway) or tease fantasy players for our anger over 'Age of Sigmar' and the death of fantasy and then turn around and complain about free DLC if you pre-order that would otherwise cost maybe 5 dollars if bought after launch is disgusting. You can't complain about being slightly ripped off for a game when GW massively rips off everybody esp. fantasy players.
Seriously I was so close to never buying from GW again but Dark Eldar brought me back to 40k. Sad thing is I hear they suck. Somehow this makes me laugh though as I always remember fantasy being the infinitely harder and more tactical game. You'd be surprised how ridiculously important the movement phase and chaff was as well as fleeing enemies in the right direction allowing you to block enemy charges with their own guys. Same goes for the double edged sword of 'immune to psychology' and 'frenzy' (basically you can never choose to retreat units with either special rule and the 2nd can be used to bait units to charge and overrun where they don't wish to). So yeah somehow I think dark eldar in 40k will still be an easier game to play than an outdated faction in fantasy.
flamingkillamajig wrote: No because I'm ripped off super hard by GW and they basically destroy an entire game universe I loved and enjoyed I'm willing to bite for a Day One DLC offer for a game that will likely need heavy patches on release day and cost 60 USD. In comparison Age of Sigmar was so much worse than this it isn't even funny. You seriously have no clue unless you had at least 2,000 points or more of fantasy which cost at least hundreds of dollars and spent at least 3 years playing warhammer fantasy (I had at least 3k of skaven, various army books and spent about 6 years playing warhammer fantasy). Creative Assembly/Sega might ruin one game boo hoo. GW killed a game universe that lasted 28 years that many people spent time, money and effort building, painting and accruing hundreds at least just to get ONE army. I can spend 60 something dollars and get 5 fairly decently balanced armies in one game if I pre-order. Even if the game is a jumbled mess it's just 60 USD down the drain. I've known codex/army book releases that have ruined whole armies and at least forced hundreds to be spent just to make a person's army worthwhile in a game.
Basically GW killed my game universe. If Creative Assembly wants to slightly rip me off with a half baked game that needs heavy patching and DLC at release just so I can re-live my glorious warhammer fantasy universe one last time in all its wondrous glory then so be it. I'd almost give a blow job to every creative assembly team member just to give me Total War: Warhammer. This is how badly GW screwed warhammer fantasy enthusiasts and how much I'm willing to put up with crap just for one last hurrah of warhammer fantasy.
I've got dwarves and orcs in extensive numbers so I know how you feel about AoS. I started in 4th edition so I had quite the investment. I'm not saying don't BUY WTW, I'm saying don't preorder it because its probably going to be a buggy piece of snotling poop. I'll happily wait until its on sale and patched all nicely. But do as you please.
@argonak: Thank you I still think i'll pre-order it but there are other games around. It was just frustrating is all. For me comparing total war: warhammer's DLC vs 'age of sigmar'/'the death of warhammer fantasy' is like comparing a stubbed toe to getting your whole leg blown off. At least this is how it is for me.
I fully intend to pre-order Total War: Warhammer, as soon as I saw that my Dwarves would be present I was sold. I'm looking forward to it, bugs and all
TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
War Kitten wrote: I fully intend to pre-order Total War: Warhammer, as soon as I saw that my Dwarves would be present I was sold. I'm looking forward to it, bugs and all
I figure by the time skaven come around I will so do an underground battle vs your beard-things with my rat-men ;P.
I just want you to remember what happened at 'the city of pillars'/'karak eight peaks' and grumble about all the grudges you will never pay back .
Your rat-men stand no chance against my glorious Dwarf warriors, we will burn you out of your warrens
TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
From the outset Total war Warhammer is a must buy to me.
But it also has a 2017 release.
That was and still is my estimated minimum time before the farsical amount of DLC is bundled into something worth taking and the bugs are fixed.
While on the topic of DLC Angry Joe is rallying the people:
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Total War: Warhammer is 2016 I'm pretty sure. Not 2017
TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
Orlanth wrote: From the outset Total war Warhammer is a must buy to me.
But it also has a 2017 release.
That was and still is my estimated minimum time before the farsical amount of DLC is bundled into something worth taking and the bugs are fixed.
While on the topic of DLC Angry Joe is rallying the people:
Good for him then, Silly Joe should get a normal job instead. And yes, the game is comfirmed for 2016
Legion: Dark Angels 
Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
