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Iron_Captain wrote: All of the Imperium? United? They can bring their entire force? That is not even a question. The Imperium would sweep over the Eldar like an ocean over a sandcastle. The Eldar population is so insignificant compared to the Imperium, no amount of ancient doomsday weapons can fix that. And that is before we even get to the fact that the Imperium probably has an even larger stockpile of ancient doomsday weapons.
The Imperium could just hunt down every Craftworld at its leisure. In the grand scale of things, the Eldar do not have the numbers and power left to be anything more than a minor annoyance for a galaxy-spanning empire. It would be a huge achievement for them to take out a single sector, and the Imperium has hundreds of sectors. Not to mention that whereas every loss suffered by the Eldar is irreplaceable, the Imperium can send in the next wave ad infinitum.
Really, the Imperium, controls almost an entire galaxy, they would have as good as limitless power, if only it were not divided and assaulted constantly on all sides.
All they have to do is blow up Terra with their infinite doomsday devices, and humanity is denied FTL travel.
That might work if Terra were undefended. Doomsday weapons need to be delivered after all.
The fact remains that Terra is the imperiums Achilles Heel, the chink in it's armour. Sure, it the best defended chink in existence, but you can be dam sure that someone like Vect would sniff out this weakness. And delivery isn't so much an issue when the Dark Eldar can.create temporary webway portals and have invented a way of transforming themselves into pur light, allowing them to cross interstellar distances at speed. It doesn't matter how many billions of times the Imperium outnumbered the Elder, the fact remains they only need to be successful in a single mission to cripple the Imperium while Commarragh is all but impervious to conventional assault. With this in mind it's hard to argue that if Vect wanted Terra as super heated gas, or sucked into a black hole, or to snuff out Sol, that he couldn't get it done. And this is before I mention the aid granted from Farseers and Harlequins telling Vect when and where to strike.
Iron_Captain wrote: All of the Imperium? United? They can bring their entire force? That is not even a question. The Imperium would sweep over the Eldar like an ocean over a sandcastle. The Eldar population is so insignificant compared to the Imperium, no amount of ancient doomsday weapons can fix that. And that is before we even get to the fact that the Imperium probably has an even larger stockpile of ancient doomsday weapons.
The Imperium could just hunt down every Craftworld at its leisure. In the grand scale of things, the Eldar do not have the numbers and power left to be anything more than a minor annoyance for a galaxy-spanning empire. It would be a huge achievement for them to take out a single sector, and the Imperium has hundreds of sectors. Not to mention that whereas every loss suffered by the Eldar is irreplaceable, the Imperium can send in the next wave ad infinitum.
Really, the Imperium, controls almost an entire galaxy, they would have as good as limitless power, if only it were not divided and assaulted constantly on all sides.
All they have to do is blow up Terra with their infinite doomsday devices, and humanity is denied FTL travel.
That might work if Terra were undefended. Doomsday weapons need to be delivered after all.
The fact remains that Terra is the imperiums Achilles Heel, the chink in it's armour. Sure, it the best defended chink in existence, but you can be dam sure that someone like Vect would sniff out this weakness. And delivery isn't so much an issue when the Dark Eldar can.create temporary webway portals and have invented a way of transforming themselves into pur light, allowing them to cross interstellar distances at speed. It doesn't matter how many billions of times the Imperium outnumbered the Elder, the fact remains they only need to be successful in a single mission to cripple the Imperium while Commarragh is all but impervious to conventional assault. With this in mind it's hard to argue that if Vect wanted Terra as super heated gas, or sucked into a black hole, or to snuff out Sol, that he couldn't get it done. And this is before I mention the aid granted from Farseers and Harlequins telling Vect when and where to strike.
This assume that the GEoM wouldn't somehow use some warp dickery to stop it because chaos is otherwise occupied in the scenario.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
There is no way the Eldar race could stand up to sustained and full blown imperial military might
The imperium is fighting EVERYONE, and is either losing so slowly it doesn't matter or holdinmg them off, and most of these other it's facing outnumber the eldar to such a ridiculous degree it's hilarious
the vast majority of fighting in the galaxy is between imperium and nids, imperium and orks or imperium and chaos/heretical factions... if the imperium can hold off ALL THOSE 3 galatic powers at once then the eldar wouldn't even have enough ammo
GAdvance wrote: There is no way the Eldar race could stand up to sustained and full blown imperial military might
The imperium is fighting EVERYONE, and is either losing so slowly it doesn't matter or holdinmg them off, and most of these other it's facing outnumber the eldar to such a ridiculous degree it's hilarious
the vast majority of fighting in the galaxy is between imperium and nids, imperium and orks or imperium and chaos/heretical factions... if the imperium can hold off ALL THOSE 3 galatic powers at once then the eldar wouldn't even have enough ammo
Once again, I fail to see the relevance of the Imperiums excess of resources when they cannot.bring it to bare. So many people are claiming the Imperium would wipe.the Eldar off the map yet they have yet to come.up with a plausible way to do so besides "Emperor did it" and blockade every single webway portal ever.
If Terra is destroyed, mankind loses. They lose reliable interstellar transport and as such all that man power.is.in effect useless because war efforts would be hampered by logistics of Warp Travel. Similarly, if Commarragh dies, most of the webway dies.with it, hence the Imperium would win. Cut off the head and the body dies, it's hardly relevant.how big the body is, only how think your helmet is. And in this case, the webway is the best helmet on the Market.
Which is exactly why neither side attacks each other in the current fluff
But even then if the imperium wanted to, they really do have the resources to block every webway gate, whereas eldar can't attack Terra... we know because someone tried it before who was much stronger and lost
I voted Eldar coalition (Not merely dark elder, as some people took the poll to be) because I don't believe the coalition should lose to any faction by such a definitive margin.
Eldar fluff is huge on them being able to read the patterns of the future and act accordingly to avoid doom.
This matchup I think has been the least satisfying because the Eldar lose so much by:
all other factions disappearing (they often use factions against each other/ see orks)
the enemy having a clear directive to attack them (approximately zero people know how badly the Eldar have fethed them)
Being woefully outnumbered
Of all faction combinations I feel this is the single least likely to occur.
GAdvance wrote: Which is exactly why neither side attacks each other in the current fluff
But even then if the imperium wanted to, they really do have the resources to block every webway gate, whereas eldar can't attack Terra... we know because someone tried it before who was much stronger and lost
GAdvance wrote: Which is exactly why neither side attacks each other in the current fluff
But even then if the imperium wanted to, they really do have the resources to block every webway gate, whereas eldar can't attack Terra... we know because someone tried it before who was much stronger and lost
Can't attack Terra? Eldars entire shtick is striking where they want when they want. Temporary webway portals, transmitting themselves as pure light, reliable teleportation and divination, of all the races that have the capability to attack Sol Eldar stand the best chance of getting into position, even beyond necrons who we know managed to infiltrate some stealth ships all the way to mars. Add that to the fact Vect is arguably the most powerful Mortal alive, more so then Abbadon or Ghazskull, due to being the only person to have complete (albeit reluctant) control over an entire faction and their resources. While he wouldn't win in a fight, the Dark Eldar hold second position (above Craftworlders, below Necrons) 9of most technologically advanced race around and Vect has a strangle hold on all the pre-fall doomsday tech that entails.
I don't understand the reasoning of how the Imperium can win this, when the Eldar need only be successful in a single mission to cripple the Imperium where the Imperium would need decades for Inquisitors to map out enough of the Webway to make an assault on Commarragh with even a chance of success.
Nuke is figurative, as any idiot would realize (not calling you an idiot, just imperceptive). By "nuke" he means doomsday weapon, a la Blackhole Gun or detonated Warp Drive.
A rose, by any other name, still triggers an immediate lockdown protocol in a Non-Euclidean city
Which... now that I think about it, might actually be terribly self-harming to the Imperium.
Step 1: Doomsday-nuke warp portal 1
Step 2: Deldar close and isolate warp portal 1's adjoining room. Dark City saved.
Step 3: Doomsday bomb detonates. Has no passage by which to focus it's destructive force (whatever that may be) since closing the webway portal creates an isolated pocket dimension thingy, so full force hits the webway pocket and, unsurprisingly, shatters it with it's doomsday-ness.
Step 4: Isolated Webway bubble collapses, creating a corridor between warp and material universes.
Step 5: Call in the Gray Knights to deal with a self-created daemonic incursion.
Step 6: Lose city/world/system/sector to warp.
Step 7: Repeat at each webway location.
Step 8: ???
Step 9: Profit?
You do realize that a detonated Warp Drive would tear a hole in the Webway and allow Chaos Daemons to pour into it, correct?
GAdvance wrote: There is no way the Eldar race could stand up to sustained and full blown imperial military might
The imperium is fighting EVERYONE, and is either losing so slowly it doesn't matter or holdinmg them off, and most of these other it's facing outnumber the eldar to such a ridiculous degree it's hilarious
the vast majority of fighting in the galaxy is between imperium and nids, imperium and orks or imperium and chaos/heretical factions... if the imperium can hold off ALL THOSE 3 galatic powers at once then the eldar wouldn't even have enough ammo
Once again, I fail to see the relevance of the Imperiums excess of resources when they cannot.bring it to bare. So many people are claiming the Imperium would wipe.the Eldar off the map yet they have yet to come.up with a plausible way to do so besides "Emperor did it" and blockade every single webway portal ever.
If Terra is destroyed, mankind loses. They lose reliable interstellar transport and as such all that man power.is.in effect useless because war efforts would be hampered by logistics of Warp Travel. Similarly, if Commarragh dies, most of the webway dies.with it, hence the Imperium would win. Cut off the head and the body dies, it's hardly relevant.how big the body is, only how think your helmet is. And in this case, the webway is the best helmet on the Market.
This. If people would bother looking at any modern wars, then they would realize that if you simply disrupt the foe's logistical structures, destabilize the governmetn (aka terrorism) via surgical strikes and assassinations, or even just eliminate certain Systems along key Warp routes, it would end up being a series of linchpins that brings the entire Imperium crashing down. Destroying Terra wouldn't even be necessary, as the Imperium would just have to lose a few key Forge Worlds and it would lose all ability to produce key war materiel (as Forge Worlds don't seem to see the value in sharing STCs with eachother).
In a conventional war, the Imperium wins, hands down. However, if modern warfare has taught us anything, it's that unconventional warfare, such as guerilla tactics and terrorism, are vastly more effective than conventional warfare; which just so happens to be the specialty of the Eldar as a species.
All they have to do is blow up Terra with their infinite doomsday devices, and humanity is denied FTL travel.
The emperors beacon is still just a beacon, The ships only must make shorter jumps like how they colonized the galaxy before the emperor.
... assuming humanity still has access to technology that functions without the beacon.
Plus, humanity used non-Warp FTL prior to the Fall of Old Night (see: Priests of Mars). Imperium barely even understands the concept of it; let alone how to get it done.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/31 20:45:48
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
GAdvance wrote: Which is exactly why neither side attacks each other in the current fluff
But even then if the imperium wanted to, they really do have the resources to block every webway gate, whereas eldar can't attack Terra... we know because someone tried it before who was much stronger and lost
Can't attack Terra? Eldars entire shtick is striking where they want when they want. Temporary webway portals, transmitting themselves as pure light, reliable teleportation and divination, of all the races that have the capability to attack Sol Eldar stand the best chance of getting into position, even beyond necrons who we know managed to infiltrate some stealth ships all the way to mars. Add that to the fact Vect is arguably the most powerful Mortal alive, more so then Abbadon or Ghazskull, due to being the only person to have complete (albeit reluctant) control over an entire faction and their resources. While he wouldn't win in a fight, the Dark Eldar hold second position (above Craftworlders, below Necrons) 9of most technologically advanced race around and Vect has a strangle hold on all the pre-fall doomsday tech that entails.
I don't understand the reasoning of how the Imperium can win this, when the Eldar need only be successful in a single mission to cripple the Imperium where the Imperium would need decades for Inquisitors to map out enough of the Webway to make an assault on Commarragh with even a chance of success.
All of that is completely useless when the Webway portal leads straight to the broadsides of Battlefleet Solar. The Dark Eldar are notoriously bad at waging large-scale warfare. Clearly their unspecified "doomsday weapons" don't really help them in this. Using mysterious, unspecified doomsday devices as an argument is the same as using the Emperor as argument. Or for all we know, when Vect wants to deploy his doomsday weapons, one of his rivals gets the idea to steal them and unleash them on Vect rather than Terra. The notion of a unified, not backstabbing Dark Eldar is more ridiculous than the Emperor suddenly standing up from his throne and slapping Vect with a sardine.
Besides, Commorragh is hardly an impenetrable fortress. Even the Orks managed to invade it, of all things. The Salamanders were also able to travel to and from Commorragh on their own, after they received a psychic signal from one of their librarians already trapped there. Commorragh is not a secret place or anything, it is an important trading hub. Both Eldar and non-Eldar can travel there freely. The story of the Salamanders invading Commorragh suggests that the Imperium could send in a psyker as a spy, have him give a signal, and then an entire battlefleet could home in on that signal and jump right in.
As much as I like the Dark Eldar, on a galactic scale, next to the Imperium, they are insignificant.
GAdvance wrote: Which is exactly why neither side attacks each other in the current fluff
But even then if the imperium wanted to, they really do have the resources to block every webway gate, whereas eldar can't attack Terra... we know because someone tried it before who was much stronger and lost
Can't attack Terra? Eldars entire shtick is striking where they want when they want. Temporary webway portals, transmitting themselves as pure light, reliable teleportation and divination, of all the races that have the capability to attack Sol Eldar stand the best chance of getting into position, even beyond necrons who we know managed to infiltrate some stealth ships all the way to mars. Add that to the fact Vect is arguably the most powerful Mortal alive, more so then Abbadon or Ghazskull, due to being the only person to have complete (albeit reluctant) control over an entire faction and their resources. While he wouldn't win in a fight, the Dark Eldar hold second position (above Craftworlders, below Necrons) 9of most technologically advanced race around and Vect has a strangle hold on all the pre-fall doomsday tech that entails.
I don't understand the reasoning of how the Imperium can win this, when the Eldar need only be successful in a single mission to cripple the Imperium where the Imperium would need decades for Inquisitors to map out enough of the Webway to make an assault on Commarragh with even a chance of success.
All of that is completely useless when the Webway portal leads straight to the broadsides of Battlefleet Solar. The Dark Eldar are notoriously bad at waging large-scale warfare. Clearly their unspecified "doomsday weapons" don't really help them in this. Using mysterious, unspecified doomsday devices as an argument is the same as using the Emperor as argument. Or for all we know, when Vect wants to deploy his doomsday weapons, one of his rivals gets the idea to steal them and unleash them on Vect rather than Terra. The notion of a unified, not backstabbing Dark Eldar is more ridiculous than the Emperor suddenly standing up from his throne and slapping Vect with a sardine.
Besides, Commorragh is hardly an impenetrable fortress. Even the Orks managed to invade it, of all things. The Salamanders were also able to travel to and from Commorragh on their own, after they received a psychic signal from one of their librarians already trapped there. Commorragh is not a secret place or anything, it is an important trading hub. Both Eldar and non-Eldar can travel there freely. The story of the Salamanders invading Commorragh suggests that the Imperium could send in a psyker as a spy, have him give a signal, and then an entire battlefleet could home in on that signal and jump right in.
As much as I like the Dark Eldar, on a galactic scale, next to the Imperium, they are insignificant.
As true as all of that is, the Eldar could "easily" (in comparison to literally every faction out there) completely and utterly destabilize the Imperium. As they have done in the past, they could plant their own human agents, assassinate key targets, destroy irreplaceable infrastructure, etc. Of course, what this really boils down to is: can the Imperium cover every Webway Gate with enough guns to keep the Eldar from coming through one alive? If not, then Eldar Farseers, superweapons, and terrorist capabilities could tear the Imperium apart. You strike down a couple of Forge Worlds, and suddenly a key STC is absent from the AdMEch's arsenal of blueprints. Hit these trade worlds at this time, and suddenly the economy of a key Sector of Segmentum Ultima has been crippled; causing a ripple-effect of economic depression. If they can, well then, the Eldar will get curbstomped by the Imperium's sheer volume of superweapons and bodies, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Vect let the Salamanders both in and out, They were just pawns he used to overthrow the noble houses that used to control Commoragh. Good job space marines...
Orks did make it in on accident, but Orks are not Imperial they fly asteroids around terrorizing the galaxy, and have led waaghs into the warp. Their wacky and do extraordinary things with their wackiness.
Its not the Dark Eldar are bad a waging large scale warfare, they just don't do it. Not all of the doomsday weapons are unspecified. We have seen them use plagues that are species specific, plagues that turn the infected to glass, steal a whole planet, turn off a sun, and deliverable black holes. It has been mentioned that there are a lot more, but like many things in 40k they remain a mystery.
Per the fluff the Dark Eldar work well together during real space raids, and rarely backstab each other while conducting them. They know that their prosperity depends on being able to find allies to go on these raids with in order to be able to hit better defended targets for greater reward.
As was previously mentioned they are the 2nd most technologically advanced race after necrons. Just because you don't see all that they can do on the table top doesn't mean that they don't have a lot of other toys at their disposal. Heamonculi have been around since before the fall of the Eldar, they know some serious stuff.
Lets not forget the Harlequins, who know the Webway better than anybody (DE included) , are included in this and their home base is the Black Library, a treasure trove of information.
Frankly the odds are against the Imperium here, simply because it's not a style of warefare that they're really cut out for.
Looking at numbers and resources alone, the Imperium would prevail. But this a fight the Imperium can't realistically win, the type of warfare they are least suited for. The Imperium is a lumbering beast that responds with overwhelming force... if it can bring its force to bear. The Eldar/DE can strike at will and slowly cripple the Imperium... but they also risk destruction everytime they get bogged down long enough for the Imperium to respond.
So really, it could go either way, depending on how long the conflict drags on for. If the Eldar/DE manage to cripple the Imperium in the opening phases (destroy Terra, cut lines of communication, etc), they might have a chance. Otherwise the Imperium would slowly win through attrition (though getting to Commargh and Craftworlds like the Black Library would still be a problem, or maybe even impossible).
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
Trystis wrote: Vect let the Salamanders both in and out, They were just pawns he used to overthrow the noble houses that used to control Commoragh. Good job space marines...
Vect only had kidnapped a single strike cruiser. The fact that two additional strike cruisers jumped in to rescue the first one was completely unplanned. Vect had not planned for the Space Marines to escape.
Trystis wrote: Orks did make it in on accident, but Orks are not Imperial they fly asteroids around terrorizing the galaxy, and have led waaghs into the warp. Their wacky and do extraordinary things with their wackiness.
And if even the Orks can find a way in, the Imperium would have a very easy time indeed.
Trystis wrote: Its not the Dark Eldar are bad a waging large scale warfare, they just don't do it.
If you never do something, that generally means you are very bad at it. The Imperium has lots of experience with large scale warfare, the Dark Eldar none. The Dark Eldar do not have the equipment for large scale warfare, they only use light raiding vehicles that would be powerless against a Titan Legion. It does not take a genius to figure out who wins there.
Trystis wrote: Not all of the doomsday weapons are unspecified. We have seen them use plagues that are species specific, plagues that turn the infected to glass, steal a whole planet, turn off a sun, and deliverable black holes. It has been mentioned that there are a lot more, but like many things in 40k they remain a mystery.
Mysteries can't be used as arguments. We know the Dark Eldar can steal suns, we do not know how they do this. As long as we do not know how the superweapons can be delivered, we can not use them in an argument. For all we know, those superweapons are like most historical "superweapons": Incredibly powerful, but also completely impractical in an actual fight. If the delivery of said superweapon would require the Dark Eldar to get actually near their target for example, it would be useless against the Imperium. If it can be fired through the Webway on the other hand, it would be greatly useful. Without such details, "superweapons" are meaningless.
Trystis wrote: Per the fluff the Dark Eldar work well together during real space raids, and rarely backstab each other while conducting them. They know that their prosperity depends on being able to find allies to go on these raids with in order to be able to hit better defended targets for greater reward.
Yet the Dark Eldar do not always work together well when fighting an external enemy, nor do they act in the 'greater good' of their race. See Vect crippling the Dark Eldar defense of Commorragh when invaded by the Salamanders. Dark Eldar do not really have allies, just others they use to get what they want. They are paranoid and will definitely act together against a common threat, but this unity is never more than a facade. If an opportunity presents itself, the Dark Eldar will take it. Dark Eldar would never pass up a great opportunity for personal profit.
As was previously mentioned they are the 2nd most technologically advanced race after necrons. Just because you don't see all that they can do on the table top doesn't mean that they don't have a lot of other toys at their disposal. Heamonculi have been around since before the fall of the Eldar, they know some serious stuff.
They do. But we don't know what that is, so it is hard to argue about it, no? The AdMech also hides many ancient and terrible secrets from the Dark Age of Technology, when humans rivalled the pre-Fall Eldar. Any superweapon that the Eldar may have is matched by the superweapons of the AdMech.
Trystis wrote: Vect let the Salamanders both in and out, They were just pawns he used to overthrow the noble houses that used to control Commoragh. Good job space marines...
Vect only had kidnapped a single strike cruiser. The fact that two additional strike cruisers jumped in to rescue the first one was completely unplanned. Vect had not planned for the Space Marines to escape. Well that isn't true at all. I have the piece in front of me now,"haywire fields were a*disengaged*", " moved to intercept, but we're met with enormous firepower from both friend d foe" and "passed still-yawning webway gate". All of this suggests Vect let them get away. To say otherwise shows either you haven't read th actual source or are disregarding it
Trystis wrote: Orks did make it in on accident, but Orks are not Imperial they fly asteroids around terrorizing the galaxy, and have led waaghs into the warp. Their wacky and do extraordinary things with their wackiness.
And if even the Orks can find a way in, the Imperium would have a very easy time indeed.
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That particular Ork led his Waaaagh directly into a space rift, which just so happened to lead them into Commarragh port. But that was our initial defence, the Imperium needs multiple entrance points they can consistently access, lest Vect simply lock down that small district and conjoin it to the sub realm containing the suns.
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Trystis wrote: Its not the Dark Eldar are bad a waging large scale warfare, they just don't do it.
If you never do something, that generally means you are very bad at it. The Imperium has lots of experience with large scale warfare, the Dark Eldar none. The Dark Eldar do not have the equipment for large scale warfare, they only use light raiding vehicles that would be powerless against a Titan Legion. It does not take a genius to figure out who wins there.
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Why, prey tell, are the Eldar fighting n Imperial terms? They have the.mobility advantage, divination advantage, tactical advantage (faction wide assaults are easier to manage when 80% of you live in the same city) while the Imperium has Sooo much to protect. And on then other hand Craftworlders have shown themselves to be exceptional at using mobility in lieu of large scale assaults, a good example being multiple warhosts used simultaneously against the 13th black crusade
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Trystis wrote: Not all of the doomsday weapons are unspecified. We have seen them use plagues that are species specific, plagues that turn the infected to glass, steal a whole planet, turn off a sun, and deliverable black holes. It has been mentioned that there are a lot more, but like many things in 40k they remain a mystery.
Mysteries can't be used as arguments. We know the Dark Eldar can steal suns, we do not know how they do this. As long as we do not know how the superweapons can be delivered, we can not use them in an argument. For all we know, those superweapons are like most historical "superweapons": Incredibly powerful, but also completely impractical in an actual fight. If the delivery of said superweapon would require the Dark Eldar to get actually near their target for example, it would be useless against the Imperium. If it can be fired through the Webway on the other hand, it would be greatly useful. Without such details, "superweapons" are meaningless.
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Do we have to go over this again? My initial analysis said both races have depressions capable of destroying worlds large scale. But it's impossible to argue that Sol is better protected from them then Commarragh. It's easier to open a temporary webway portal and drop off a black hole in a Box (over exaggeration I know) then do do something similar to Commarragh by virtue of the webway defences
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Trystis wrote: Per the fluff the Dark Eldar work well together during real space raids, and rarely backstab each other while conducting them. They know that their prosperity depends on being able to find allies to go on these raids with in order to be able to hit better defended targets for greater reward.
Yet the Dark Eldar do not always work together well when fighting an external enemy, nor do they act in the 'greater good' of their race. See Vect crippling the Dark Eldar defense of Commorragh when invaded by the Salamanders. Dark Eldar do not really have allies, just others they use to get what they want. They are paranoid and will definitely act together against a common threat, but this unity is never more than a facade. If an opportunity presents itself, the Dark Eldar will take it. Dark Eldar would never pass up a great opportunity for personal profit.
As was previously mentioned they are the 2nd most technologically advanced race after necrons. Just because you don't see all that they can do on the table top doesn't mean that they don't have a lot of other toys at their disposal. Heamonculi have been around since before the fall of the Eldar, they know some serious stuff.
They do. But we don't know what that is, so it is hard to argue about it, no? The AdMech also hides many ancient and terrible secrets from the Dark Age of Technology, when humans rivalled the pre-Fall Eldar. Any superweapon that the Eldar may have is matched by the superweapons of the AdMech.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/02 16:47:29
You are all forgetting an important part of the Eldar race - the Exodites. They will be among the first targets for the Imperium. They will be tough to beat, but they will be beaten.
In Path of the Dark Eldar, which a few of you have quoted here, the exodite planet reacts with psychic backlash to an invasion. It causes a devastating disjunction. It could have meant the end of the webway and almost caused the destruction of Commoragh. Can you imagine what two, three, four, etc simultaneous disjunctions would do?
You are all forgetting an important part of the Eldar race - the Exodites. They will be among the first targets for the Imperium. They will be tough to beat, but they will be beaten.
In Path of the Dark Eldar, which a few of you have quoted here, the exodite planet reacts with psychic backlash to an invasion. It causes a devastating disjunction. It could have meant the end of the webway and almost caused the destruction of Commoragh. Can you imagine what two, three, four, etc simultaneous disjunctions would do?
That didn't happen because of an invasion. It happened because dark eldar captured the world singer and an Incubi issued what was essentially a challenge to the world spirit. It subsided when the Incubi sacrificed himself. It wouldn't happen in this conflict, but if it did it would be directed at the Imperium.
The Eldar are too much trouble to fight with every other faction also fighting the IoM, and they are allies as often as enemies. The IoM ignores them when possible, and the Eldar see the humans as a shield between them and everything else. But if the situation changed so the IoM didn't have to worry about other factions it does look bad for the Eldar. Not only does it free up massive resources for the Imperium but it also takes away massive resources from the Eldar - all those Waaghs, human renegades and dangerous xenos the Eldar usually manipulate to fight for them are now unavailable. They'll have to take to the field for themself and risk everything.
I could see this going both ways. Even with Eldar Farseers guiding massive first strikes to cripple the IoM it might not be enough if the battles are too costly. The sluggish Imperial warmachine would seldom catch a target, but if it does that target is in trouble. This would be a Pyrrhic victory for whichever side is left standing.
It happened because of the desecration of the world shrine, not because of the invasion. And the incubi was the most visible face in the world shrine so it became a focal point for the anger when it returned. However, the destruction and death that took place within the world shrine were enough to set it off. Also, it could be replicated accidentally by Space Marines finding a world shrine.
Also, the anger was not directed, at least until the Incubi returned. It was just rage emanating through the webway. It wouldn't be directed at the Imperium. Even if it could be directed at the Imperium, its effect, in so far as we saw, was limited to the webway. Its anger at the Imperium would destroy the Eldar.
DOS wrote: It happened because of the desecration of the world shrine, not because of the invasion. And the incubi was the most visible face in the world shrine so it became a focal point for the anger when it returned. However, the destruction and death that took place within the world shrine were enough to set it off. Also, it could be replicated accidentally by Space Marines finding a world shrine.
Also, the anger was not directed, at least until the Incubi returned. It was just rage emanating through the webway. It wouldn't be directed at the Imperium. Even if it could be directed at the Imperium, its effect, in so far as we saw, was limited to the webway. Its anger at the Imperium would destroy the Eldar.
If it was that simple it would be happening all the time. It's not that unusual for Exodite planets to be attacked, be partially, or even fully destroyed. Tyranids, Orks, or the Imperium would of already done this on accident if it was possible to be done. I'm also pretty sure it was directed, even if only in a vague way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/03 08:10:37
This isn't a debate. The Imperium can crush any faction it wanted if it was a 1v1 war.. the core rulebook even states it. The issue for the Imperium is mustering the forces for the given task when dealing with the myriad of other factions. Ironically, people seems to forget that the Imperium is at its largest currently and is far greater in sheer territorial and military might. The issue of the Imperium is every Segmentum is at war and if you notice they are really highlighting that the Segmentums themselves actively quell the wars within their borders. The War for Cadia for example isn't an issue of whether the Imperium can fend off Abaddon but whether they can reach Cadia to keep it from falling to him
The Eldar would lose it would be a bloody and costly war but it would be end with humanity ascended.
I feel as though if the Imperium dedicated it's FULL military power including forbidden technologies, mechanicum, space marines, sub factions and greatest warriors. It's near unmatched by most other factions. They would crush Tau like a bug, necrons at full power would probably overwhelm them but as they are wouldn't be able to stick it, orks are impossible to iradicate even with exterminatus and are so far found in every part of imperial space ever discovered, they are subdueable but as a united race would curbstomp the Imperium. I'm not especially knowledgeable on nids but as we can designate the main tyranid threat as leviathan I believe it's advance would be stopped, chaos can be subdued primarily by the forces of the Canadian gate and so could so too be subdued. It can of course only be destroyed (assuming they haven't ascended beyond them) by the removal of all humanity in the galaxy. Plus we all know how the last crusade into the eye of terror went >.< Eldar would get utterly smashed. Remember Comorragh, the greatest city, the entire existence of Dark Eldar society was overwhelmed or at least rocked to its very core by 300 salamanders breaking in. The elder themselves are a dying race without the resources or motivation to engage in large, pitched battle
Automatically Appended Next Post: I did forget to add that as a united race the tyranids would carve through the imperium. Leviathan alone I doubt would cut it. Their success so far can be attributed to the imperium being unable to divert sufficient resources to prevent their advance
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/16 23:35:23
BaconUprising wrote: chaos can be subdued primarily by the forces of the Canadian gate and so could so too be subdued.
But yea, even united the Eldar would be fighting an uphill battle.
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
