Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I started playing Warhammer Online when it came out, and I really loved my dwarf engineer character. Eventually that led to me looking at dwarves in a Games Workshop store and I immediately ran into two problems:

1. (the big one) the dwarves were all dudes. What the heck. Where are the awesome dwarf women from the MMO?
2. the aesthetic wasn't that great. The models were super caricatured and chunky and didn't look a lot like the ones from the MMO, and also didn't compare well to the Lord of the Rings dwarves I was more familiar with from GW's strategy battle game.

Before I was aware of other issues, like "I hope you want to buy fifteen boxes of warriors or whatever," those were the showstoppers.

I don't buy the "kids like sci fi more than fantasy" or "WHFB is more popular among adults". It's anecdotal I know, but WHFB around here has always been a realm of kids more than adults just like 40k.

Actually, I wonder if that idea comes from America more than Europe.

I think there's several reasons....

1. I think the range outgrew the game's popularity. GW's revenue rides on their constantly releasing new stuff and eventually the range is too large to justify if the community isn't also large.

2. I think the idea of including ever larger monsters and whatnot was at odds with the idea of a regimental combat game and that reduced appeal.

3. I reckon when GW started expanding in to the USA 40k caught on and WHFB didn't so that WHFB became proportionally a much smaller slice of their sales.

4. Entry requirements were too high. Painting a regiment is more daunting than painting a squad of 10 for 40k.

5. 8th edition alienated a lot of existing customers but also made the bar for entry even higher. Prior to 8th it was very common to see games with less than 50 models a side, from 8th onwards that seemed like a rarity.

6. No Spehss Mareenz. WHFB never really had a poster boy army that GW could flog when it needed to drum up sales. WHFB was a game where all the armies were minor armies.

I'm sure there's other reasons but that's all that's coming to mind at the moment.

Anecdotal evidence:

I have been active in 3 different metas, in 3 different parts of the state, over the years. In all cases, WHFB was something the 40+ and older crowd was playing(though they had 40k, and other games, too) while the younger people were playing 40k almost exclusively. I was unusual in that I had a WHFB army, on top of playing 40k. Only a couple people my age had WHFB armies.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Anecdotal evidence:

I have been active in 3 different metas, in 3 different parts of the state, over the years. In all cases, WHFB was something the 40+ and older crowd was playing(though they had 40k, and other games, too) while the younger people were playing 40k almost exclusively. I was unusual in that I had a WHFB army, on top of playing 40k. Only a couple people my age had WHFB armies.

That's why I said "I wonder if that idea comes from America more than Europe" (unless your flag is lying and you aren't from the USA). Because in my experience kids love fantasy in general and the groups I've been involved with over the past 20 years always had a dominance of youngens in both WHFB and 40k.

Most of the older players I encounter tend to be in to historics.

It might be. Sci-fi is definitely more of a younger kid thing here than Fantasy. But its a blurry line to be sure.

I think WHFB died because 40k was bigger and filled a similar hole in the market. AoS is a better entrypoint into the hobby than WHFB, and also allows them to compete with popular skirmish style games.

Pre-AoS GW had two big products with similar demographics and business models. The business plan from GW would have been to diversify by consolidating their old playerbases into one range of miniatures (cut costs), and then producing a new product aimed at a different demographic and with a different business model. Specifically this new business model is built on a low barrier to entry (free rules, and playable with just a box or two of miniatures), followed by microtransaction style additional scenario rules and buying additonal miniatures.

It's too hard to tell if killing WHFB was the right move. It will be interesting to see if 40k sales go up as they would have hoped, and it will be interesting to see how big the pool of potential hobbyists is. I think the WHFB -> 40k transition will be weaker than expected because they pissed off the community. The poor implementation will probably hurt GW in the short term, but in the long term targetting wider audiences and piloting new business models could be very profitable. It was a very brave move that could backfire spectacularly.

I think GW's problem is that they see themselves as a separate hobby from the wider world of wargaming and miniature painting.

They do believe that they are The GW hobby(tm).

And that has led them to do this, killing Fantasy in order to seek out a new demographic but not once stopping to consider that they are competing with lots of other companies on the market to reach that demographic.


Also, while I know locally 7th had a strong enough community that the larger tourney's in the state would draw in 200 people they were struggling to pull 25 once 8th hit. I feel like after 8th hit the damage was done through and with some effort me and a friend (who both started with 8th) managed to rebuild a lot of the local scene. We weren't pulling 200 people to tourneys but we had regular games going and half of the local 40k community bought into Fantasy as well, saying it was a better game.

The 40k players, who are for the most part fairly competitive locally, enjoyed that 8th was more balanced than 6th/7th 40k, they enjoyed that movement played a massive role in the game, and even the magic phase (which I know a lot of 7th ed vets cite as a terrible change) was something that they found interesting.

I know for me personally though that I began to loose interest around the time the Chaos Demons book landed. I considered the core rules and the 8th ed army books that were released prior to that very well balanced and very good for competitive play. However Chaos Demons was a mess and what followed was not much better. I think the whole local community then began to drift back towards 40k then, being the more popular of the two if both games were going to be equally unbalanced.

Given my personal experience I think End Times and AoS were a big mistake, I think WHFB needed a fair bit of work to recapture people's attention but the game itself still had all that potential, GW simply squandered it with poor rules and lack of support.

It just got too big. Just in the last few years I was interested, local meta standard game size went from 1500 with the occasional 2000 to 2400 with fairly regular 3000+.

That's a very daunting prospect for new players, or anyone wanting to start a new force.

It began with 7th, and 8th nailed the coffin in.

A dangerous mix of price increases, a necessity of a higher model count number per army and bad rules did Fantasy in.

If you want to compare it with 40k, use the genre and not the game itself. Sci-Fi is on a clear rise, while "traditional" Fantasy clearly is not.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

RoperPG wrote:
It just got too big. Just in the last few years I was interested, local meta standard game size went from 1500 with the occasional 2000 to 2400 with fairly regular 3000+.

That's a very daunting prospect for new players, or anyone wanting to start a new force.

This. Couple it with the lack of low points games (à la Kill Team style) and you have a game that involves what... a 300€ investment up front.

I am still surprised they did not just merge the systems, call the game "warhammer" and just do army and campaign books for both universes................

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Anecdotal evidence:

I have been active in 3 different metas, in 3 different parts of the state, over the years. In all cases, WHFB was something the 40+ and older crowd was playing(though they had 40k, and other games, too) while the younger people were playing 40k almost exclusively. I was unusual in that I had a WHFB army, on top of playing 40k. Only a couple people my age had WHFB armies.

That's why I said "I wonder if that idea comes from America more than Europe" (unless your flag is lying and you aren't from the USA). Because in my experience kids love fantasy in general and the groups I've been involved with over the past 20 years always had a dominance of youngens only both WHFB and 40k.

Most of the older players I encounter tend to be in to historics.

I can relate to that. Except for 5-6 new players in his late teens or early 20s all our group is solidly 30-something and above with wives, kids and all that.

We do play historicals (FoW, FoG, BA, Hail Caesar) as well, but WHFB (well, 9th age from now onwards) is the game of choice.

The 40k crowd is noticeably younger and gravitates towards fantasy with the years (maybe it's that were a more laid back group and that tends to appeal more with age).

My ₹1

1-Breath mint or candy mint?
Fantasy has always had this tension, it's a fantasy game with orcs and lizardmen and elfs and dragons and what ever, but plays like a medieval historical game with blocks of troops. This tension led to some of the wild swings in balance. We want bizarre creatures like dragons and mighty heroes and magic, but the game is still build around troops, cavalry and artillery, so the importance of the fantastic elements varied wildly from edition to edition.

2-Losing the edge
For a long time Fantasy was a breath of fresh air. A dirty, grimy late-medieval world based on historical Europe. The use of German names for the Empire for example gave it a sense of reality that other fantasy worlds never had. Just compare a map of the Olde World to the world of Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms and the other two just pale.
Giving their world black powder weapons and steampunk vehicles just made it more interesting.
And then the heavy metal, shoulder pads, spikes and skulls look for Chaos just make it cool.
While I never liked Fantasy the game per se, I really liked the world.
But it seems everyone has learned from GW, fantasy worlds these days use a lot of these tropes so WHF no longer felt new.

3-Work load
Others have talked about the model count and expense, I would add just the sheer workload for this game was terrible. An Empire soldier had a bare minimum of 5 parts, plus any flair you want to add. Plus painting and basing. All that for a 5 point model, one of 20, 30, 50, 100. GW needed to either make them more significant to make them work the work, or simpler models.

4-Failure to grow
A big one for me, the Olde Worlde had tons of unexplored locals, Yind, Cathay, Araby, Nippon... Or just underused aspects, Pirates, Dogs of War, Chaos Dwarfs, Norse, Chaos Cultists... but it was over 10 years since the last new faction was introduced and they were just Ogres.

5-Too many similar factions
Another biggie, sort of the opposite side of failure to grow, when it did 'grow' it was by splitting factions into smaller and smaller bits. 3 kinds of elf, 3 or 4 kinds of chaos (depends if you count Skaven), 3 kinds of animal men (Skaven, Beastmen, Lizard Men), 2 kinds of undead... etc.
More human factions would have been interesting since, well, we're all human and there's tons of real world history to mine. Trying to turn all these fictional, however iconic, races into different factions each with a dozen or more plastic kits just asked too much from stores and from customers.

6-Plastic
No one else wants to say it, so I will. GW's plan to shift EVERYTHING to plastic means they have to pay huge start up costs for really marginal units. Plastic models are profitable when sold in bulk, special characters, elite units, rare to unique warmachines etc should be in resin or metal. The big monsters like dragons should be kits that can be used by as many armies as possible. Having 3 different dragons for Dark, Wood and High Elfs must have been killing them on inventory and mold costs. They should have done one dragon with 3 heads and riders like they did with the giant.

I can't speak for someone else, but as someone who seriously considered starting WHFB when the Lizardmen army came out in 2013, I can tell you why I ultimately didn't pick up the game:

1) No obvious starting point - Usually, there is some sort of starter box that has rules and stuff that gets you started, but Island of Blood was very expensive for two armies I had absolutely no interest in. I wanted Lizardmen. So I needed to get at least the giant, expensive rulebook (for a game I wasn't sure I wanted to play yet) and the Lizardman codex - so I'm spending a ton of money before I've bought even my first Lizardman model. Honestly, if Island of Blood had two armies I was interested in (which weren't many in WHFB), I'd be playing the game today. But High Elves and Skaven? Meh.

2) Rank and file miniatures are unappealing - I like to paint my models, but I do it slowly and give each one a lot of attention. It takes me two or three days to finish an individual model - but the results are worth it. But having a block of 30 skinks that all look the same, where you can't even really see the paint jobs when ranked up was daunting. And a single army could be dozens upon dozens, if not hundreds of models. That's pretty intimidating.

3) The fantasy was pretty generic stuff - I like Tolkien-esque fantasy as much as the next guy, but WHFB didn't do a lot in my eyes to differentiate itself. While there were a bunch of different and unique races in 40k that all looked cool, most of the WHFB units looked kind of similar. I mean, I can only barely tell you the difference between the Eldar and the Dark Eldar, but I couldn't tell you the difference between the Bretonnians and the Empire. The High Elves looked like the Dark Elves, but with a different painting scheme. Tomb Kings were undead, but Vampire Counts were... a slightly different undead? I loved the Lizardmen and even the Tomb Kings/Vampire Counts, but very little outside of that interested me - and some races, like the Skaven and Orcs, I actively disliked.

4) The price - Assuming I found an easy way in, was willing to put up with the rank and file stuff, and found enough interesting about the models to get me into the game, there was still the issue of price. That's still a concern with AoS, but AoS had a good starter box, some spectacular miniatures, and some very not-generic units, so I was already partially invested in the game before price even became an issue. If you want something bad enough, you can find the money for it. But the problem is, if you aren't sure yet whether you want something, excessive prices become a sword of damocles dangling over the entire process. Yeah, I like Lizardmen... but do I like them, like them? Enough to ultimately pay a few hundred bucks to play with them? Ultimately, the answer was no.

Both Warmachine and Age of Sigmar have really good introductions to the game in the form of starter boxes. Warmachine, especially, gives you an easy in for any faction of your choice. Both of them have free rulebooks (though WMH's is only free recently). They also look visually distinct from the generic fantasy or scifi that games like WHFB, Infinity, or Warpath give off. It's very easy to get into WMH and AoS, easy to want to keep with them. WHFB had several points against it (the number of models, startup, and cost) which, when taken together, was too intimidating and ultimately scared me off.

 Sqorgar wrote:
I can't speak for someone else, but as someone who seriously considered starting WHFB when the Lizardmen army came out in 2013, I can tell you why I ultimately didn't pick up the game:

1) No obvious starting point - Usually, there is some sort of starter box that has rules and stuff that gets you started, but Island of Blood was very expensive for two armies I had absolutely no interest in. I wanted Lizardmen. So I needed to get at least the giant, expensive rulebook (for a game I wasn't sure I wanted to play yet) and the Lizardman codex - so I'm spending a ton of money before I've bought even my first Lizardman model. Honestly, if Island of Blood had two armies I was interested in (which weren't many in WHFB), I'd be playing the game today. But High Elves and Skaven? Meh.

That is a problem with all of GW's games, it is not unique to WHFB. You'll notice AoS suffers from it too.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
1-Breath mint or candy mint?
Fantasy has always had this tension, it's a fantasy game with orcs and lizardmen and elfs and dragons and what ever, but plays like a medieval historical game with blocks of troops. This tension led to some of the wild swings in balance. We want bizarre creatures like dragons and mighty heroes and magic, but the game is still build around troops, cavalry and artillery, so the importance of the fantastic elements varied wildly from edition to edition.

That was always the cool thing about Fantasy. I've never had any real interest in historic rank-and-file style games, but rank and file with monsters thrown in is just an awesome concept.

GW have never done a great job of balancing anything though. Luckily WHFB for the most part had a more balanced core rules system than 40k, but it still wasn't great. I'd actually argue that it's easier to balance monsters in a game like WHFB than it is in 40k because you just need to make sure the monster is balanced against a similar priced rank and file unit

Probably the start up costs. But also the fact that it was hard to see.

You go to a GW store, and there is a good chance they are playing 40k, so you don't see fantasy being played. You see 40k being played. It's no fun playing a game by yourself, so you join up with existing players.

Maybe once you are an established player, you'll look to spread to another game. But then do you spend money on current plastic crack. Or new plastic crack?

In what sense did WHFB fail? GW canned it.

Why? Obviously because they found it was unprofitable. It was unprofitable because the infrastructure needed to support the game; the shelf space, warehousing, design staff, books in print and so on, was about the same amount as required for 40K but the game was selling a lot less.

How did WHFB become unprofitable in the past five years, when from 1981 to 2010 it was a successful game? It was selling less for several reasons. One was that 8th edition was fairly unpopular with the player base, introducing some rules changes that established players didn’t like, such as variable charge distance. Another was that the price of rules and army books was increased hugely in 8th edition. The amount of figures needed for an army also went up. Both these changes made the game more difficult to start, or even to keep up with if you were an established player.

These reasons were all created by GW. Note that many of these causes have also been applied to 40K in 6th and 7th edition, and GW have seen sales fall 20%, but from a higher level that leaves the game still profitable.

Could GW have saved WHFB? Possibly not. GW’s accounting logic seems to have required the game to return such a large amount of revenue that prices had to be increased to the level that so many players dropped out that the game became non-viable. In some way, AoS is GW's attempt to salvage something from the wreckage of WHFB.

TL/DR: GW made a number of changes to the game that made it so much less popular that they had to can it.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
I can't speak for someone else, but as someone who seriously considered starting WHFB when the Lizardmen army came out in 2013, I can tell you why I ultimately didn't pick up the game:

1) No obvious starting point - Usually, there is some sort of starter box that has rules and stuff that gets you started, but Island of Blood was very expensive for two armies I had absolutely no interest in. I wanted Lizardmen. So I needed to get at least the giant, expensive rulebook (for a game I wasn't sure I wanted to play yet) and the Lizardman codex - so I'm spending a ton of money before I've bought even my first Lizardman model. Honestly, if Island of Blood had two armies I was interested in (which weren't many in WHFB), I'd be playing the game today. But High Elves and Skaven? Meh.

That is a problem with all of GW's games, it is not unique to WHFB. You'll notice AoS suffers from it too.

There was also a handy batallion box... but I guess that's not a starting point.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
I can't speak for someone else, but as someone who seriously considered starting WHFB when the Lizardmen army came out in 2013, I can tell you why I ultimately didn't pick up the game:

1) No obvious starting point - Usually, there is some sort of starter box that has rules and stuff that gets you started, but Island of Blood was very expensive for two armies I had absolutely no interest in. I wanted Lizardmen. So I needed to get at least the giant, expensive rulebook (for a game I wasn't sure I wanted to play yet) and the Lizardman codex - so I'm spending a ton of money before I've bought even my first Lizardman model. Honestly, if Island of Blood had two armies I was interested in (which weren't many in WHFB), I'd be playing the game today. But High Elves and Skaven? Meh.

That is a problem with all of GW's games, it is not unique to WHFB. You'll notice AoS suffers from it too.

There was also a handy batallion box... but I guess that's not a starting point.

For some armies it really wasn't.

Considering the size of your average game, they were also too small. Or the game too big.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
I can't speak for someone else, but as someone who seriously considered starting WHFB when the Lizardmen army came out in 2013, I can tell you why I ultimately didn't pick up the game:

1) No obvious starting point - Usually, there is some sort of starter box that has rules and stuff that gets you started, but Island of Blood was very expensive for two armies I had absolutely no interest in. I wanted Lizardmen. So I needed to get at least the giant, expensive rulebook (for a game I wasn't sure I wanted to play yet) and the Lizardman codex - so I'm spending a ton of money before I've bought even my first Lizardman model. Honestly, if Island of Blood had two armies I was interested in (which weren't many in WHFB), I'd be playing the game today. But High Elves and Skaven? Meh.

That is a problem with all of GW's games, it is not unique to WHFB. You'll notice AoS suffers from it too.

Disagree. It is extremely simple to get into AoS. Even ignoring the starter, which I loved both factions in, the rules are free and you can pretty much buy any single box of units from any faction and play. You can literally pick a random box off the shelf and play the game.

Which armies, if I may ask? The High Elf one, for example, was just fine.

And we're not talking about buying pre-built armies for the average points used in a competitive match. We're talking about a solid starting point for building an army.

People don't play games just because they are easy to start. There's got to be more to it. People will start quite difficult games if the value proposition is right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, this thread is about why WHFB died rather than why AoS is awesome.

Entry barrier. Just that. You don't get new players by forcing them to invest hundreds of dollars into a game beforehand.

So, they've been touched on by others, but here are my top 3 reasons for WHFB being mothballed, with a note that I've only played the game since 5th ed, and that I'm a gamer, not much of a modeller:

1) The armies outgrew themselves. GW from 6th till 8th kept encouraging larger and larger armies, going from standard ranks being 4 models across, to 5, to hordes of 10 across, and steadfast meant you wanted very deep ranks. From blocks of 16-20 being ideal for your largest blocks, you went to possible bunkers of hundreds of models. While that was always a possibility even from 6th, the rules encouraged this growth, and GW encouraged it because they wanted people to expand armies that were 5-10-20 years old, and gain new sales.

The issue here was that eventually, with that growth that encouraged short term sales as armies were expanded to fit the new meta,combined with the removal of smaller skirmish games like Mordeheim, GW shot themselves in the foot in terms of recruiting new players. Who wants to start a game where you might need several blocks of 30-100 infantry? And it wasn't just infantry, the game seemed to want more of everything...

2) It lost focus as a tactical game. As much as people point to 7th as a start to the problems (which I'll talk about more on my next point), around here it was actually a very popular edition for the most part, and it was the release of 8th when there was a serious exodus of players. The reason for myself leaving the game, and many others I know, was that 8th shifted the game strongly away from the more decisive and tactical game that it was, and more to the soft, roll a bunch of dice to see what happens sort of things. Random charges, random terrain, and then you had steadfast (among other changes) meant maneuvering was far less decisive. And then there was Magic, which was more random yet more powerful than ever, turning games from careful positioning and planning into games of Yatzee. The game became all about these big random "cinematic" moments, over which you had little control. In this, it had lost it's niche as the more hard-nosed alternative to 40k's beer and pretzels approach, and so many players branched out into games that actually gave them what they wanted - such as myself, going to Warmachine, and others going to infinity or KoW.

3) The third, and actually least of the 3, is simply army balance. It's not nearly as much of a thing, as the two above, but it's worth a mention, because it's what started a lot of discontent at the end of 7th, that probably in some ways lead to 8th being what it was. 7th, in my opinion, was an excellent edition, the basic rules were actually pretty good, and it was a fair transition from 6th. However, and it's a big however, the issues with the edition came because of the huge imbalances between army books as the edition went on. You had poor, abused books like the O&G book, or the 6th ed Ogre Kingdoms books going up against things like Matt Wards 7th ed Demons - and of course that's going to cause a backlash. As I said, I loved 7th edition, but in our group, we had no demons players, no VC players and only one dark elves player who didn't take all the horrible stuff possible, so the edition worked well for our group. However, hearing about tournaments in which the top 4 lists were variants of the same demons list, or a new player going up against a double hydra DE list, I can see why people were grumbling about that. It was the least issue, however, because that sort of balance issue can be overcome, by comp, by handicapping, by not going all out to win in friendly games. However, GWs decision wasn't to balance the signal, but simply to turn up the noise-to-signal ratio, to mask the problem, and here the cure was worse than the disease.


So, the end result was that new players didn't want to start a game with such a large buy in, especially when they heard so much griping about balance, which lead to 8th where many of the older players left because it wasn't the game they wanted anymore (removing promoters/recruiters for the game and communities to foster new players), and buy in was now even bigger than ever. It was enough to leave the game floundering slowly until it was killed by AOS.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
I can't speak for someone else, but as someone who seriously considered starting WHFB when the Lizardmen army came out in 2013, I can tell you why I ultimately didn't pick up the game:

1) No obvious starting point - Usually, there is some sort of starter box that has rules and stuff that gets you started, but Island of Blood was very expensive for two armies I had absolutely no interest in. I wanted Lizardmen. So I needed to get at least the giant, expensive rulebook (for a game I wasn't sure I wanted to play yet) and the Lizardman codex - so I'm spending a ton of money before I've bought even my first Lizardman model. Honestly, if Island of Blood had two armies I was interested in (which weren't many in WHFB), I'd be playing the game today. But High Elves and Skaven? Meh.

That is a problem with all of GW's games, it is not unique to WHFB. You'll notice AoS suffers from it too.

Disagree. It is extremely simple to get into AoS. Even ignoring the starter, which I loved both factions in, the rules are free and you can pretty much buy any single box of units from any faction and play. You can literally pick a random box off the shelf and play the game.

So where are the starter boxes for anything not Sigmarines or Khorne guys? Much like you lamented there not being in WHFB?

 Grimtuff wrote:

So where are the starter boxes for anything not Sigmarines or Khorne guys? Much like you lamented there not being in WHFB?

Like I said, you can literally grab any box you want and play the game. The rules are free and there are no army composition rules that require you to take a certain number of X before you play the game. For instance, I'm planning on starting a Seraphon army by just grabbing a box of warriors and integrating them into my Stormcast until I'm ready to get more.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

So where are the starter boxes for anything not Sigmarines or Khorne guys? Much like you lamented there not being in WHFB?

Like I said, you can literally grab any box you want and play the game. The rules are free and there are no army composition rules that require you to take a certain number of X before you play the game. For instance, I'm planning on starting a Seraphon army by just grabbing a box of warriors and integrating them into my Stormcast until I'm ready to get more.

Then you're playing Stormcast with allies, really.

Not Seraphon.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Then you're playing Stormcast with allies, really.

I think that was the point he was making...

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Then you're playing Stormcast with allies, really.

I think that was the point he was making...

But that wouldn't be playing Seraphon now, would it? I actually think he just used the wrong example.

He should just have said "I can grab a saurus box and play with it alone." Much simpler.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Then you're playing Stormcast with allies, really.

Not Seraphon.

I am, but a new player wouldn't be. A single box of Saurus Warriors would give you 20 models (two units worth) for $38, which is similar in scale to the Warmachine Battlegroup boxes for a beginner game.