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 Kilkrazy wrote:
30 years of WHFB has done nothing to get people to come into the hobby?

Maybe the first 20-25 years, sure, but I don't think WHFB was doing much of that recently. In fact, I've never seen a WHFB game in person, and I've seen people playing 40k at the comic book shop for years.

My opinion is that disliking rules that put figures in ranks is a relatively minor reason for WHFB falling off. I think the complication of rules, unpopular changes, and sheer expense were more important.

I don't think complicated rules are a turn off (most miniature games seem to like it, with several of them being some seriously obtuse gaming experiences), unpopular changes only lose existing players and don't affect new ones, and expense is obviously not hurting 40k as much as it hurt WHFB. I'd say what killed WHFB was the ranked units and the dwindling interesting in generic fantasy.

What's interesting is that I've seen MANY people painting their Imperial Assault figures. People have always painted their boardgame minis, but where I'd seen one or two fully painted Descent sets, I've seen dozens of painted Imperial Assault figures with multiple tutorials on YouTube. And Skirmish mode seems more popular than the campaigns. I think hybrid games like SW:IA and X-Wing are probably bringing more people into the hobby than even 40k currently is. And I'd say that Imperial Assault is about medium complexity (more than the collectible miniatures/heroclix) and has a pretty significant cost. The core goes for $100 retail and each figure expansion is $10-$15 for one or two figures - which is GW territory. Never underestimate the power of a good license and heroes over hordes.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Entry barrier. Just that. You don't get new players by forcing them to invest hundreds of dollars into a game beforehand.

This. 40k has a lower buy-in, smaller units, etc.

40k-ing the prices of the Fantasy models just drove away younger players - when you need the BRB, Armies book, then multiple boxes to field a single unit... or you could just buy an XBox or PlayStation instead.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Entry barrier. Just that. You don't get new players by forcing them to invest hundreds of dollars into a game beforehand.

This. 40k has a lower buy-in, smaller units, etc.

40k-ing the prices of the Fantasy models just drove away younger players - when you need the BRB, Armies book, then multiple boxes to field a single unit... or you could just buy an XBox or PlayStation instead.

I think GW should have pushed Warhammer Warbands harder so that new players actually had an entry point. I always found Warbands pretty fun, even before Warbands came out my mates and I more often than not played small games in the 500-1000pt range.

I reckon the Warbands rules could have been refined and published as a booklet which was pushed with newer players. Instead 8th edition went the opposite direction and encouraged much larger games which were out of the realms of possibility for new players.

From what I've seen WHFB just got incredibly bloated for buying an army especially in 8th. The focus on infantry meant that getting a normal sized army equals buying 150-200 models for normal sized armies and upwards of 300+ for horde armies like skaven. Compared to 40k you only need like 40-50 models for a solid sized army. What's worse though is that both games generally pay the same rate per model so WHFB 3x the amount of models means paying 3x the price to buy into the game which is a huge deterrent and gaining new players. Old players just weren't buying anything except for the occasional new unit that gets released since they already had massive long standing collections of models from 20+ years of play.

Ultimately GW wasn't making money from any part of WHFB's player base, old or new.

I think the biggest issue with WHFB going the way of the dodo is the combination of relatively high model count armies and relatively high monetary cost for each of those models.

There is still an interest in this style of massed combat fantasy battle game, at least in my area. The FLGS has started hosting KoW tournaments, and the first one (with only a couple weeks worth of notice) had 16 players. That's on the upper end of what was typical for the WHFB tournaments that the same store used to hold regularly.

Definitely cost and limited styles of play. (The rules were really only good for large scale pitched battles in mostly open fields)

I was hoping that the follow-up to the End Times was going to be an post-apocalyptic but geographically familiar Old World.

The addition of two complementary rulesets for skirmish and small scale rank and flank with connecting campaign structures would have solved both.

The time and money investment to start any tabletop wargame is large. It's not a decision made lightly, so many of us do a little research on the internet. In the case of WHFB, the prospective player is then greeted by forums full of people saying how broken and unfun the game is. It's no surprise they decided to stay away.


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I'm not saying that's the whole reason. Just a contributing factor. I agree with what a lot of you have said. Getting back into the hobby, I pushed through the negativity because I love the 40k setting so much.


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I think a lot of the time fantasy never gets a look-in because 40k is so appealing/publicised.

 Kavish wrote:
The time and money investment to start any tabletop wargame is large.

Yeah, I lost plenty of sleep agonizing over the $60 I spent to play Frostgrave.

Don't paint over the topic with such a broad brush. Yes, some tabletop games are more expensive to get into and build up to a "standard" game size. But 8th edition pushed that standard size way past where it had been, and GW's constant price increases and box content decreases made getting to that level very difficult.

 Kavish wrote:
The time and money investment to start any tabletop wargame is large. It's not a decision made lightly, so many of us do a little research on the internet. In the case of WHFB, the prospective player is then greeted by forums full of people saying how broken and unfun the game is. It's no surprise they decided to stay away.

Not all wargames are a large money investment, WHFB was one of the worst. It's also one of the worst from a time investment standpoint, but frankly I don't think most new players consider the time (which is why we end up with so many half painted armies on ebay). It's usually after you've tried and failed to paint an army that you start to consider the time investment.

But you're probably not wrong about the negative online feedback making matters worse. That's what happens when you bring out a new edition (8th) that pisses off a lot of your existing customer base. I think AoS is going to suffer a similar problem and it's why I tihnk GW had terrible timing with AoS. AoS is always going to be judged next to WHFB because GW chose to kill WHFB and then release AoS. I reckon they'd have been better off having an overlap, the only downside then would have been it would be harder to make the transition to circular bases.

I've literally bought an infinity army on a whim that cost me less than the cost of the hardback WHFB core rulebook... I daresay the price of just a rulebook and army book scared off FAR more people than the imbalance anyone would have seen on forums.


In fact just a two or three years back we on this subforum were encouraging in 40k players to start WHFB because it was so much better balanced.

Not playing devils advocate here because I think 8th's biggest problem was the cost, but even Frostgrave and Infinity would be expensive for a first time gamer due to the scenery involved to really have a fun experience.

Once you've got a good range of scenery, of course skirmish games become very reasonable investments. The Frostgrave book is mighty tempting :-)

We used to play games using books and cereal boxes for scenery. Then we upgraded to boxes under a green sheet (for hills!) and a few bits of polystyrene packaging painted grey. Now with MDF scenery it's never been cheaper to get a good looking table set up.

Whilst you probably need more scenery for skimish games (Frostgrave/Infinity/40K) than mass battle games (Fantasy, Hail Caesar, KoW), you can get started for almost nothing.

Herzlos wrote:
We used to play games using books and cereal boxes for scenery. Then we upgraded to boxes under a green sheet (for hills!) and a few bits of polystyrene packaging painted grey. Now with MDF scenery it's never been cheaper to get a good looking table set up.

Whilst you probably need more scenery for skimish games (Frostgrave/Infinity/40K) than mass battle games (Fantasy, Hail Caesar, KoW), you can get started for almost nothing.

That's what I was thinking. I've never played Infinity (have little to no interest in that sort of game) but do you actually need to buy terrain?

I don't think I've ever bought terrain aside from trees because I couldn't make them myself. Most of my terrain for the first few years I was in to wargaming came from cardboard, primarily sourced from cereal boxes, occasionally from supermarkets, once I lashed out and bought a big sheet of polystyrene which got turned in to a couple of castles, a Lizardmen style pyramid, hills, etc.

 Bottle wrote:
Not playing devils advocate here because I think 8th's biggest problem was the cost, but even Frostgrave and Infinity would be expensive for a first time gamer due to the scenery involved to really have a fun experience.

Once you've got a good range of scenery, of course skirmish games become very reasonable investments. The Frostgrave book is mighty tempting :-)

Well, that depends. If first time gamers do what my friends and I did when we first started, you use books, boxes, and other household items. I remember my Space Marines defending a LEGO fort from an Ork force twice its size. And then, for nostalgia's sake, a friend and I played 40k back in January that looked like this:



It's only after being in the hobby for years that I can put down a table that looks like:



And when it comes to terrain, that's middling at best.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
We used to play games using books and cereal boxes for scenery. Then we upgraded to boxes under a green sheet (for hills!) and a few bits of polystyrene packaging painted grey. Now with MDF scenery it's never been cheaper to get a good looking table set up.

Whilst you probably need more scenery for skimish games (Frostgrave/Infinity/40K) than mass battle games (Fantasy, Hail Caesar, KoW), you can get started for almost nothing.

That's what I was thinking. I've never played Infinity (have little to no interest in that sort of game) but do you actually need to buy terrain?

I don't think I've ever bought terrain aside from trees because I couldn't make them myself. Most of my terrain for the first few years I was in to wargaming came from cardboard, primarily sourced from cereal boxes, occasionally from supermarkets, once I lashed out and bought a big sheet of polystyrene which got turned in to a couple of castles, a Lizardmen style pyramid, hills, etc.

Add to this that you can make some very good looking terrain out of foamcore for pretty much any system, be it fantasy or sci-fi, with just a few €'s mores of investment, and you got some horribly cheap scenery.

You need various types of terrain for all land wargames. There are many ways to get hold of it.

Making stuff yourself can be fun and is fairly cheap. You can spiff it up with professional detailing parts like what Antenociti's Workshop do.

There are many commercial kits available, ranging from fish tank ornaments to licensed SF modular buildings for Infinity and of course GW's various Fantasy and Imperial Neo-Gothic offerings..

GW kits are the most expensive, not surprisingly.

Are they? Their plastic terrain kits seem to be very comparable in price to other companies, MDF is cheaper but looks a lot worse. Especially the 40k stuff like the Manofactorum is pretty good value.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
You need various types of terrain for all land wargames. There are many ways to get hold of it.

Making stuff yourself can be fun and is fairly cheap. You can spiff it up with professional detailing parts like what Antenociti's Workshop do.

This particular bit becomes even cheaper if you use Oyumaru effectively.

 infinite_array wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Not playing devils advocate here because I think 8th's biggest problem was the cost, but even Frostgrave and Infinity would be expensive for a first time gamer due to the scenery involved to really have a fun experience.

Once you've got a good range of scenery, of course skirmish games become very reasonable investments. The Frostgrave book is mighty tempting :-)

Well, that depends. If first time gamers do what my friends and I did when we first started, you use books, boxes, and other household items. I remember my Space Marines defending a LEGO fort from an Ork force twice its size. And then, for nostalgia's sake, a friend and I played 40k back in January that looked like this:



It's only after being in the hobby for years that I can put down a table that looks like:



And when it comes to terrain, that's middling at best.

PLEASE tell me the gift tin actually counted as trees, and that the beer had special rules to allow you to take one.

1) matty ward, he single handedly destroyed the whfb game that I started wargaming in 5th ed
2) terrain relating in games, 10 wide formations makes it impossible to use terrain, it became irrelevant
3) model count, in 6th and 7th the 5-7 man wide formation seem optimal; 8th became a fantasy apocalypse game

 Mymearan wrote:
Are they? Their plastic terrain kits seem to be very comparable in price to other companies, MDF is cheaper but looks a lot worse. Especially the 40k stuff like the Manofactorum is pretty good value.

The GW kits are good value if you want a GW kit that is very GW themed and don't mind paying the premium price. Howevver, cheaper alternatives abound. Examples:

GW Imperial Sector = $120.
Pegasus Hobby Gothic City Building Large Set = $33.

GW Baleful Realmgates (2) = £35.
Petsathome.com Temple Gate (2) fish tank ornament = £24 (Currently on a three for two offer, so actually you get three of them for £24.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Pegasus Hobby Gothic City Building Large Set = $33.

And the only thing you need to make those 40k-identifiable are skulls (obviously) and imperial aquilas. You get a couple of those from ebay + some Oyumaru and Kneadatite and you are set for life.

Pegasus kits are great but they aren't readily available over here unfortunately. I've been looking for them for quite a while but it seems they're much easier to get in the US. Other than those, most plastic terrain like "Battlefield in a box", historical buildings etc are pretty much on par with GW from what I've seen.

 pox wrote:

PLEASE tell me the gift tin actually counted as trees, and that the beer had special rules to allow you to take one.

Ha, unfortunately not. The tin was just LoS blocking terrain, and the only special rule the beer had was to make my friend and I mix up his 6th ed rulebook and our combined remembrance of 5th edition's rules.

 Big Mac wrote:
1) matty ward, he single handedly destroyed the whfb game that I started wargaming in 5th ed
2) terrain relating in games, 10 wide formations makes it impossible to use terrain, it became irrelevant
3) model count, in 6th and 7th the 5-7 man wide formation seem optimal; 8th became a fantasy apocalypse game

This point is actually my main issue with the meta surrounding AoS. 8th ramped the model count to dizzying heights, and End Times pushed that even further by introducing massive, Apocalypse like models and encouraged you to have an army of the proper size to field the big models.

The have said they work 2 years out for model releases, so that mean AoS has been in production for at least two years, maybe longer.

They KNEW they were gonna put out a skirmish fantasy game with a suggested model count of 100 figures at the same time they were pushing players to buy MASSIVE armies for rules and games they were no longer going to support.

Back on topic I think model count was a huge factor in WHFB dying out. you can get started in 40k for about 400 dollars, fantasy was 800 to even have a small force, a little less for an elite army and A LOT more if it was a horde army.




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 infinite_array wrote:

 pox wrote:

PLEASE tell me the gift tin actually counted as trees, and that the beer had special rules to allow you to take one.

Ha, unfortunately not. The tin was just LoS blocking terrain, and the only special rule the beer had was to make my friend and I mix up his 6th ed rulebook and our combined remembrance of 5th edition's rules.

It was still a fun table to see, when we started it was kitchen floor, CD trays and this tub of Easter island heads my buddy found at a garage store. we still reminisce over the many battles of Easter island.

 Mymearan wrote:
Are they? Their plastic terrain kits seem to be very comparable in price to other companies, MDF is cheaper but looks a lot worse. Especially the 40k stuff like the Manofactorum is pretty good value.

I can tell that you have never tried to assemble one of these cursed things (the 40k imperial sector) . I don't need to compare their prices as someone has actually done it and no doubt more will follow. Their fantasy terrain is VERY expensive to the point that it makes 4ok terrain seem acceptable .

I don't think AoS will scale well to 100 figures a side size of games. I know games that size are a problem in 40K, because of slowness of movement and fighting, and the movement and fighting rules in AoS are very similar to 40K. (Individual figure movement, TLoS sighting, and individual figure To Hit, To Wound, To Save rolls.)

You can knock some of the GW scenery kits, but you can't knock the Garden of Morr. Great value in my opinion.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't think AoS will scale well to 100 figures a side size of games. I know games that size are a problem in 40K, because of slowness of movement and fighting, and the movement and fighting rules in AoS are very similar to 40K. (Individual figure movement, TLoS sighting, and individual figure To Hit, To Wound, To Save rolls.)

I was just using the number from the rules, something something typically 100 figures a side for an evening battle.

I think it works best with under 50 and good deployment to avoid the mosh pit in the middle. I Don't actually think there was malice on GW's part, same as I any company pushing out old stock to clear the way of new stock. I feel like army size creep is just an extension of both players liking larger, cinematic games and of course selling more miniatures. They were however selling end times with massive armies and models while re-designing the game to use 100.

It's just really bad, being used to playing between 3500-4500 point games with a horde army, then switching to AoS.

I may have a few too many core units, haha.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't think AoS will scale well to 100 figures a side size of games. I know games that size are a problem in 40K, because of slowness of movement and fighting, and the movement and fighting rules in AoS are very similar to 40K. (Individual figure movement, TLoS sighting, and individual figure To Hit, To Wound, To Save rolls.)

A very big difference is that all models in an AoS unit have the same stats and weapons, with the exception of one or two special weapons in some units. You just grab a fistful of dice and throw them twice, and your opponent rolls all his saves at once. There are no characters or mixed units to worry about.