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MongooseMatt wrote:


I _think_ the Realms are each their own universe, with each having their own planets and moons. The real question may be whether they are infinite or not...

I was pretty sure that one of the early books mentioned that you could see Sigendil or sigmarendil (or whatever they call that star) which is in Azyr in she sky of one of the other realms, which implies that they occupy somewhat the same physical space, and are just far apart. (and therefore not infinite). Or there could be some weird dimension-y stuff going on.

But Bottle wrote:
the white dwarfs for the Seraphon mentioned that every realm has its own starry sky

which means that they are partially contradicting themselves.

I just reread the entire Seraphon white dwarf, and couldn't find mention of the different starscapes... So just like the Saurus warriors it might have been just a figment of my imagination...

It is a big problem with the setting that no one has an idea of such basic details. It is just all so vague.

For me, it's simple: the Mortal Realms all exist on the same plane but are different planets in a universe that can only be crossed by Slann space ships or through magical means (such as the Realmgates and Sigmar's First Storm that brought the Stormcast Eternals to Aqshy in "The Gates of Azyr" book). The Realmgates were open during the Age of Myth, and Chaos spread freely from its Realm (planet) to the others (except for Azyr, which was sealed by Sigmar). The universe wherein all nine Mortal Realms (planets) are located could be infinite, but it has no bearing on the setting because other planets do not have Realmgates.

Now, I think it's possible that, in the distant, distant future, we could see a new "tenth" Realm appear. Maybe the Slann will discover a habitable planet with its own life forms and build a Realmgate there so that it can be accessed from the other nine Realms (planets). But for now, we are stuck with only nine named Mortal Realms, in addition to the Realms we come up with for our own games.

As far as the Empire living in a space station? I honestly think the Empire and Bretonians died with the old Warhammer setting. Along with Elves and Dwarves and all of the other old factions that were given AoS rules, if they return to the official lore, they'll return as all-new factions not to be compared with their 8th Edition counterparts. They were able to pull of the Seraphon as being "remembered" back to life by the Slann, but I doubt they'll be able to do something similar for every one of the old factions.

Granted, I've only read the Age of Sigmar primer that comes in the starter box and about half of The Gates of Azyr. So there's probably a lot I don't know yet about this game setting haha.

God this is the worst setting ever. This is like dust bin trash fantasy paperback level.

 Las wrote:
God this is the worst setting ever. This is like dust bin trash fantasy paperback level.

I can't help but wonder if I could go down to my used book store, grab 3 random books I've never heard of off the fantasy shelf, and get three much better fleshed out settings than AoS. Not saying better settings, but I think I could get 3 better established, more 'living' and fleshed out settings.

To be fair, Age of Sigmar is a very new setting - the game is what? 6 months old? - and some areas need to be left vague enough for creative teams and writers to work with later on.

You can't honestly expect to get a world as developed as, say, the old Warhammer setting, which had - what? 30+ years of fluff to go with it? Age of Sigmar is a new game, and for me, that's part of what has me excited about this setting. I get to be here and follow the development of this world from the very beginning and see where it goes.

Lots of games like AoS "should" have rulebooks that should include a good number of pages on the world setting, and then a good handful of pages for each individual faction in the game, with the goal that even the newest novice player gains a connection to the setting as a whole.

Otherwise you get a game where six months after release, players don't even know how or where very main parts of the game setting "world" work or where they even are in relation to each other.

The Stormcast is one of the main two factions in the game so far, and people don't even know the in's and outs of where in this setting they come from/are based out of?

Yep, it's the biggest failing of the game so far. For one that is narrative and not based on competition it is even more important.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Lots of games like AoS "should" have rulebooks that should include a good number of pages on the world setting, and then a good handful of pages for each individual faction in the game, with the goal that even the newest novice player gains a connection to the setting as a whole.

Otherwise you get a game where six months after release, players don't even know how or where very main parts of the game setting "world" work or where they even are in relation to each other.

The Stormcast is one of the main two factions in the game so far, and people don't even know the in's and outs of where in this setting they come from/are based out of?

That's true, but then, for Age of Sigmar, these rulebooks aren't a required purchase to play the game. I think the information is out there though; it's just locked away in $74 USD hardcover rulebooks and digital short stories that none of us have bothered to buy and read lol.

Who are these people who don't know where the Stormcast Eternals come from? Do they play the game or are we talking about the AoS-bashers who get on forums like Dakka to complain about a game they don't even play and are willfully ignorant of the game setting? I'll grant there's some legitimate criticisms about holes in AoS fiction, but anyone who's picked up the starter box and read the primer inside knows that the Stormcast Eternals are heroes taken from the midst of battle in the Age of Chaos by Sigmar and reforged into his celestial warriors. They're based in Azyrheim, Sigmar's city in the the Realm of Azyr, and they're sent via Realmgate or Sigmar-storm to the other Realms to fight Chaos and avenge the fallen. There's more to it than that, but as it's summarized, I think we have a pretty adequate explanation of who the Stormcast Eternals are, where they come from and why they fight.

 Atolyr wrote:
To be fair, Age of Sigmar is a very new setting - the game is what? 6 months old? - and some areas need to be left vague enough for creative teams and writers to work with later on.

You can't honestly expect to get a world as developed as, say, the old Warhammer setting, which had - what? 30+ years of fluff to go with it? Age of Sigmar is a new game, and for me, that's part of what has me excited about this setting. I get to be here and follow the development of this world from the very beginning and see where it goes.

There is a very big difference between leaving room to fill things in later and the emptiness that is aos fluff.

There is no excuse imo for there not to have been a page of fluff overview for each faction avaliable in some format on release, just like every previous edition of Warhammer and 40k has had (actually I can't speak to the really old editions, but certainly at least within 'modern' GW).

Simple fact is that the KoW rulebook tells me more about the setting and the races in it than AoS does, and it is a game I have seen people in this sub commenting about, saying they did not know if there was fluff to go with it.


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 Atolyr wrote:
They're based in Azyrheim, Sigmar's city in the the Realm of Azyr,

Quick question, Azyrheim is that ring thing built around the core of thenold world in space yes?

 jonolikespie wrote:
There is a very big difference between leaving room to fill things in later and the emptiness that is aos fluff.

You're absolutely right. I'm relatively new to the hobby and the only other game I'm really familiar with is Warmachine/Hordes, and there is a BIG difference between the Warmachine fiction and the Age of Sigmar fiction. But I think it has to do with a difference in genre.

Warmachine - and, I would wager, most wargames and fantasy fiction - go for realism, which necessitates detail and characterization. They feature character-driven plots and the kind of gritty realness that makes it easy to imagine yourself in the setting. I think Age of Sigmar goes for a different approach. The setting is less "real," and more mythical. They have an obvious debt to Norse myth, for one. But the characters and the story are so epic in scale, so intentionally awe-inspiring, it actually feels remote - the way that mythology feels remote to us today. If you're looking for the usual trademarks of "good" background fiction - the character-driven plots and gritty realness - in Age of Sigmar, you're going to come up empty-handed and with the impression that the setting is underdeveloped. But if you approach from the mythological angle, I think you'll find the setting is very rich with the makings of epic battles and larger-than-life characters - which is perfect for a fantasy wargame like Age of Sigmar.

So there is an emptiness in the fluff, but I think it's an illusion caused by an expectation for something that Age of Sigmar just isn't going to deliver on.

Otherwise you get a game where six months after release, players don't even know how or where very main parts of the game setting "world" work or where they even are in relation to each other.

After 40 years of playing in the old world I still couldn't have told you where the factions were in relation to each other. The game itself never required that. You just slapped down your armies and played. My knowledge was roughly that there was a gunpowder/germanic empire that was invaded every year by chaos, there were some aztec lizard men on 'lustria' wherever that was, Undead were somewhere and presumably on the border of the empire, elves of various description I have no idea how they fit in nor where the dwarves were, skaven presumably come out the sewers and beastmen probably just live in the wild areas.

KOW is supposedly a good tourney game that WFB players have jumped ship to. Does it have a setting at all? (I really don't know having only played via the free rules). Do the tourney style players really care that much - the odd 'tourney player' I've known has never struck me as the sort who cares too much about that. I can tell you where Parthia was and where Gaul was and that still doesn't stop historical players having a battle between those two, so did it matter that they knew the fluff.

Obviously some people really want the whole setting etc, some just want a game they can enjoy, with some nice looking minis.

Despite what I said above, I do hope they develop the setting. Setting may not be that key for me, but it clearly helps get players involved. Plus I never read any of the black library stuff at all in the past (be it fantasy or 40k), but some of the talk about AOS did prompt me to go out and buy War Storm to get an idea of what people were banging on about. It was £45 for the AOS book or £15 for the novel, so I went the novel. It was hardly a literary winner, but it was good enough for getting some idea of what is going on. Its been a while since I bought new fiction and I can see myself buying the next couple of books for some light reading.


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Simple fact is that the KoW rulebook tells me more about the setting and the races in it than AoS does, and it is a game I have seen people in this sub commenting about, saying they did not know if there was fluff to go with it.

Indeed, you posted whilst I was typing

 jonolikespie wrote:
Quick question, Azyrheim is that ring thing built around the core of thenold world in space yes?

I am not certain but I believe that is Sigmaron, Sigmar's fortress that floats high above Azyrheim, where the Stormcast Eternals are garrisoned.

puree wrote:

Otherwise you get a game where six months after release, players don't even know how or where very main parts of the game setting "world" work or where they even are in relation to each other.

After 40 years of playing in the old world I still couldn't have told you where the factions were in relation to each other. The game itself never required that. You just slapped down your armies and played. My knowledge was roughly that there was a gunpowder/germanic empire that was invaded every year by chaos, there were some aztec lizard men on 'lustria' wherever that was, Undead were somewhere and presumably on the border of the empire, elves of various description I have no idea how they fit in nor where the dwarves were, skaven presumably come out the sewers and beastmen probably just live in the wild areas.

Did you never look at the maps in the Army books? :-)

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My first experience with wargaming was 2nd Edition 40k. There was a book in the set called Codex Imperalis which detailed the entire setting. This book enthralled me and basically made me the life long fan of GW games that I am, overnight.

My second experience was Necromunda. There was a book in the set called the 'sourcebook' which was a neat 50/50 split between the background setting and campaign rules. The expansion Outlanders followed a similar set up.

These books explained the entire universe to me for each game and most importantly they inspired me with ideas for my own stories and miniatures. Age of Sigmar is just too vague to do any of that, I only have loose ideas of what is possible and what is not, and when you're trying to make a narrative game with another person the setting is one of the most powerful tools at your disposal. It doesn't matter if the game has been out only 6 months, the setting should have been fleshed out on release.

 Bottle wrote:

Did you never look at the maps in the Army books? :-)

Not really, I don't even remember seeing any. I just pulled down the 2 army books next to me (moderately recent ones). The ogres has some map which basically is just mountains. VC has a better map of Sylvania, if I look at it I can see some empire sounding names which is probably why I was thinking they were near the empire - my sub conscious probably took that in when I was looking through it. I had a lizard man army book somewhere. I'm not sure what other army books I would have had over the years (There would have been another couple,but I never got them all by any means).

Back in 1st edition there were no army books, so I started with WFB not being a setting specific game (same with RPGs back then). That is possibly why I never really took in the setting even when I had army books on getting back into it later. Even with AoS the setting doesn't bother me, we will be playing with our old armies (or new armies in my case) but in a setting that we want. Fantasy wargames have always been like that with me - what is the game like and do minis look nice, after that then they are like RPGs of old where you just make your own imagi-nations, or simply ignore setting and just play games.

[edit]
,but I never got them all by any means

Actually on looking in the garage I had quite a few more than I thought. My memory is bad. I assume I bought them just to know what I was facing in games, rather than to absorb any background.




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My first experience with wargaming was 2nd Edition 40k. There was a book in the set called Codex Imperalis which detailed the entire setting. This book enthralled me and basically made me the life long fan of GW games that I am, overnight.

Interestingly 40k was a bit like that for me. After decades of not being bothered by the sci-fi looking game (because I was never into sci-fi minis games) I gave it a go whilst in a GW shop and bought the rule book just to have a gander. It was the setting that got me into that game (well to a certain extent). The whole future dark ages with technology that people don't understand and humanity descending into some religious personality cult, there being so many of us that whole regiments get sent to some planet and then forgotten about in some utter over the top bureaucracy just really grabbed me.

So the game I played I really didn't like the setting (gunpowder empire, annual chaos etc). Yet the setting I do really like I barely play. Odd eh!

If you're a fan of the elves/mortal humans/orcs/other armies not mentioned much yet, I definitely see how you'd have a problem with the setting so far. It's readily apparent those people were left in the lurch with this launch, and I'm not surprised a fair chunk of them were put off and not sure if they wanted to dive in.

As a general fan of the game, though, I do like the unfolding narrative style. I'm discovering the world along with everyone else, all the factions and armies at the same time.

I get most of my fluff/narrative/etc. from the models and war scrolls, to be honest. Those are what evoke my fluff bunny and daydreaming more than anything.

 Atolyr wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Quick question, Azyrheim is that ring thing built around the core of thenold world in space yes?

I am not certain but I believe that is Sigmaron, Sigmar's fortress that floats high above Azyrheim, where the Stormcast Eternals are garrisoned.

I think this perfectly sums up the problem, honestly. You say you've read the fluff, you're defending that it's not completely empty, but even you can't say for sure what that picture actually is of.
The fluff is so vague, the details so lacking that someone can't even look a picture of a giant space station circling the remains of a planet's core and say, "yes, that is this thing."
I don't know about you, but I would think that it wouldn't be that hard to distinguish it from other parts, when it's a freaking space station in a fantasy setting.

I know it can be hard sometimes to perfectly match art with descriptions, every artist has a different take and all that. But I've never had the problem of looking at the artwork in the older books and go, "that's a picture of Naggaroth, that's a picture of Nuln, that's a picture of Ulthan."
Each culture had rather distinctive architecture and each city had it's landmarks that would be given form by different artists without changing the whole thing.

As it stands right now, no one is sure if that's Azyrheim or Sigmaron, or even where exactly it's supposed to be. Is it really supposed to be a space station, for example.

GW hasn't left holes to fill in later, or spots for you to build your own thing, the old world had that. The edges of the map were fuzzy, there were plenty of areas of "don't go there, no one does" even in the center of the Empire. AoS has almost exactly the opposite, instead of giving you a map with uncertain edges and areas, they've instead given you a very few points on the map, and left the rest blank.

To make a rather weird analogy, the Old World was a coloring book. You could see what was going on, but you could make it your own.
AoS is connect the dots. They give you a hint of something, and leave the rest of the work up to you.

Atolyr wrote:Granted, I've only read the Age of Sigmar primer that comes in the starter box and about half of The Gates of Azyr. So there's probably a lot I don't know yet about this game setting haha.

Deadawake1347 wrote:I think this perfectly sums up the problem, honestly. You say you've read the fluff, you're defending that it's not completely empty, but even you can't say for sure what that picture actually is of. The fluff is so vague, the details so lacking that someone can't even look a picture of a giant space station circling the remains of a planet's core and say, "yes, that is this thing."
I don't know about you, but I would think that it wouldn't be that hard to distinguish it from other parts, when it's a freaking space station in a fantasy setting

As I said above, I've only read a small fraction of the available background for AoS. So maybe I'm not the best person to be answering questions about the setting haha. I apologize; I'm only going off of what I've read so far and there's still a lot I don't know. I do own the first few novels though and also found some scans of the rulebooks, so I'll be sure to read up on the background some more before I say anything further about the setting. This thread has definitely made me more interested in the fluff; I want to find answers to some of these questions and find out for myself just how developed this game world really is.

But I did find that image in my scan of the Age of Sigmar rulebook, and I can say with certainty that it is Sigmaron, or at least Sigmaron and the surrounding palaces built around the Broken World. To quote from the text on the same page as that image: "A ring was built round the Broken World; where sat the celestial palaces built of stone; high standing, the blocks so large only a Gighemoth could heft them. So did Sigmar's fastness grow...In Sigmaron, great stronghold of Sigmar, the palace of the Heavens; there shines Sigendil, the High Star; and dark Dharroth glooms there also. Loud ring the forges of the Six Smiths; great armies are built, awaiting only the call to battle."

It's right there, on the same page as the image. So as I said before, the information is definitely there; it's just in those expensive hardcover rulebooks that none of us are buying/reading

 Atolyr wrote:
To be fair, Age of Sigmar is a very new setting - the game is what? 6 months old? - and some areas need to be left vague enough for creative teams and writers to work with later on.

You can't honestly expect to get a world as developed as, say, the old Warhammer setting, which had - what? 30+ years of fluff to go with it? Age of Sigmar is a new game, and for me, that's part of what has me excited about this setting. I get to be here and follow the development of this world from the very beginning and see where it goes.

I don't see why not. GW supposedly have been working on AoS for over two years. (Personally I don't believe this theory.)

If true, it doesn't take two years to come up with a detailed in-depth fantasy setting if you have a design team of 100+ supplemented by freelancers including if you want, professional fantasy novelists.

Consider that AoS-Land is built on the wreckage of WHFB. All the old races and factions are still there, and the only new faction GW had to invent was the Sigmarines (who clearly are based on Space Marines and Valhalla.)

Apart from that, all GW have had to do is invent some silly names like Blood Secretor and Procurator, to enable them to TM the new units, and write a bit of generic stuff about Realms and "fair Sigmaron" so on.

I meant we're six months into the release schedule. Even if the setting is already fully developed, we're not going to be able to fully appreciate the depth of the game world until we're farther into the release schedule and have seen more of the campaign books, faction books, etc. So far, with the Realmgate Wars releases, all we're really seeing are Stormcast Eternals and their allies fighting Chaos. I think there's going to be more to Age of Sigmar than sigmarines and skulls. I think once we get past this initial story arc, as more factions crop up and the focus of the setting shifts and pans out, we'll see a game setting as rich and with as much depth as any other.

But then again, I'm new to Warhammer and haven't been let down by Games Workshop as I'm sure I will be at some point haha. So I guess I'm putting a lot of blind faith into GW, but I just think AoS has so much potential!

 Atolyr wrote:
To be fair, Age of Sigmar is a very new setting - the game is what? 6 months old? - and some areas need to be left vague enough for creative teams and writers to work with later on.

You can't honestly expect to get a world as developed as, say, the old Warhammer setting, which had - what? 30+ years of fluff to go with it? Age of Sigmar is a new game, and for me, that's part of what has me excited about this setting. I get to be here and follow the development of this world from the very beginning and see where it goes.

Bad excuse. Presumably AoS would've had to be in development for AT LEAST a year. It's a lazy, horridly underdeveloped setting. It's a writing room meeting idea that never got past the brain storming stage. Tons of other brand new settings (video game, TT or otherwise) manage to put out good settings on similar timetables. They may not be as rich as a 30+ year old IP, but they at least show effort and promise.

AoS is paper thin.

Drip feeding your customers information about your setting is not a smart move, you need to get them the basics ASAP so that they can know what's going on and be drawn into your setting.

AoS would have been worked on for a while behind the scenes, presumably at least a year given the End Times and the lead up to that.

If not, and it was rushed to save a dying game, then they released it before it was ready.

Any way you slice it I find it a bad move and am bewildered as to why GW let it happen.

People easily understood the basics of the Olde World because it was a fantasy version of early Renaissance Earth.

Trying to look at the Azyr setting objectively, it may be a clever long-term project to develop a completely original high fantasy setting over a period of years, but it is indistinguishable from a rushed out sketch intended to justify renaming everything to put a TM on the end.

For example, it's difficult to understand why there aren't more novels available that would flesh out the setting for players and provide ongoing income for GW separate to model releases.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
For example, it's difficult to understand why there aren't more novels available that would flesh out the setting for players and provide ongoing income for GW separate to model releases.

According to the BL website, currently 5 novels and 14 quickreads.
That's roughly 3 publications a month since release, alongside 2 big books and soon to be 4 Battletomes.

Quickreads do not count!


Seriously, it's short stories and ebook crap like that which has killed so much interest in BL books and turned the N&R thread into a wasteland.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Seriously, it's short stories and ebook crap like that which has killed so much interest in BL books and turned the N&R thread into a wasteland.

This.

I lost pretty much all my interest in the Horus Heresy stuff once they cranked up the damned ebook and short story milking machine.

Fair enough, but the stuff is still there. Otherwise, it's like me claiming that I don't think the Wheel of Time universe is very well realised because I haven't bought any of the books.

RoperPG wrote:
Fair enough, but the stuff is still there. Otherwise, it's like me claiming that I don't think the Wheel of Time universe is very well realised because I haven't bought any of the books.

Soo... where is the Dwarf, Orc and Elf fluff is all those moneygrabs... errr I mean fine pieces of fiction

I kinda feel like AoS is between a rock and a hard place. If you look at it as the sequel to WHFB you start asking where the other races are and it feels empty and poorly thought out.

If you look at it as it's own game, you ignore the elves, dwarves, etc, but then the whole setting is 8 infinite realms that are basically entirely owned by chaos and the sigmarines are now fighting them. With so few factions it feels empty and poorly thought out.