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RoperPG wrote:
Fair enough, but the stuff is still there. Otherwise, it's like me claiming that I don't think the Wheel of Time universe is very well realised because I haven't bought any of the books.

It's there except it isn't. You can't lay the foundations of a massive new Fantasy universe with short stories. I would have expected at least one massive trilogy available at launch, and a novel a month to follow up, featuring different factions and giving a wide view of the situation.

No, the foundations are there.
Even in WFB the majority of the BL releases were 'historical' rather than contemporary.

It's obvious that AoS is running on a contemporary style of publication - current events with the equivalent of flashbacks to cover previous relevant details and events, with the narrative focus on whatever forces are in the limelight at that point.

Yes, it's very likely a large part of this is to drive interest in sales of whatever's new.
But given the basic difference between the settings of AoS and WFB - everything to play for vs. almost perpetual 2 minutes to midnight - you can't publish in the same way.

Fully appreciate that we don't know exactly how former High Elves store their crockery on Sundays, but what are people expecting, exactly? A battle setting or an RPG setting?

All comparisons I've seen have started with WFB as the baselines, a setting that had 3 decades of perpetual development to furnish the details.
AoS is a continuation of that, but as people are also always keen to point out - it's gone, blown up, dead. The fog of War is everywhere.

I'm waiting for the releases in Jan/Feb to see how GW handle an actual society of people. But at this point I'm hopeful.

RoperPG wrote:
Yes, it's very likely a large part of this is to drive interest in sales of whatever's new.

How can you say this and then defend that the foundations for the entire setting are there?

RoperPG wrote:
But given the basic difference between the settings of AoS and WFB - everything to play for vs. almost perpetual 2 minutes to midnight - you can't publish in the same way.

Yes, yes you can. You can release a first book (or trilogy, as mentioned) explaining the general (that is: all the factions) mythos - bridging the background with the exploded rock that was before - and then go from there.

Think Silmarillion. How hard would it be for GW to do something like that?
Answer: not at all.

RoperPG wrote:
Fully appreciate that we don't know exactly how former High Elves store their crockery on Sundays, but what are people expecting, exactly? A battle setting or an RPG setting?

"Truly! Damn those customers who actually want to know something about their faction. How dare they not want to buy the books and miniatures we are cramming out for half a year that only cover a sixth of the entire faction list - they should be groveling with the battle setting (what the hell is this anyway?) awesomeness that we provide, even if it's got nothing to do with their factions! And especially those Bretonnia players, not even knowing if their faction has survived at all!"

RoperPG, 30 years ago GW was starting something from scratch - they didn't have 30 years of player/customer base to keep interested and to manage the expectations of. If you have players that play Humans, Orcs, Elves,Dwarves, Ogres... that have helped you become what you are, and want to keep them interested, focusing on two factions - one of them sparkly brand fething new - is not the way to do it.

Wanna guess what happens when a company doesn't keep their customers interested? Check the Yearly Reports.

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:Soo... where is the Dwarf, Orc and Elf fluff is all those moneygrabs... errr I mean fine pieces of fiction

jonolikespie wrote:I kinda feel like AoS is between a rock and a hard place. If you look at it as the sequel to WHFB you start asking where the other races are and it feels empty and poorly thought out.

If you look at it as it's own game, you ignore the elves, dwarves, etc, but then the whole setting is 8 infinite realms that are basically entirely owned by chaos and the sigmarines are now fighting them. With so few factions it feels empty and poorly thought out.

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:If you have players that play Humans, Orcs, Elves,Dwarves, Ogres... that have helped you become what you are, and want to keep them interested, focusing on two factions - one of them sparkly brand fething new - is not the way to do it.

Solid points here. The absence of aelves, duardin, orruks, etc. in the initial story arc leaves some of us with a lot of questions about those factions, which definitely isn't good for the game. The campaign book Quest for Ghal Maraz is listed as book #1 in what is assumed to be a series of campaign books, the Realmgate Wars. So Age of Sigmar is likely going to be featuring the Stormcast Eternals vs Chaos conflict for a while yet. I think GW assumed most of their new AoS players would buy the starter set, and would want to hear more about the Stormcast Eternals and Khorne Bloodbound inside. And then they would slowly phase in other factions as time went on.

Whether this approach was the best for introducing their new setting is certainly debatable. I think for veteran players, it is entirely unsatisfactory; these players probably want to know where their WHFB armies fit in the new setting, and the fiction isn't answering their questions at all. But for players new to Warhammer, like myself, who picked up the starter box, I think it is adequate. I, for one, like hearing about the Stormcast Eternals and Khorne Bloodbound because those are the models I own, and I'm excited to see what comes next, to watch the setting unfold as new factions are phased in and tangent storylines developed. But if you don't care about either of these first two factions, this setting as we've seen it so far, is going to be dead to you. Simple as that.

In my opinion the setting should be at least half way between where it is now and what you would consider an "RPG setting".

I'm reading the Ritual Battleplan and one of the ideas is to stop a Nurgle cult unleashing a plague on a city.

What cities? Do they mean Azyrheim because my impression is that is the only city in all the realms. Nothing in the setting has suggested otherwise (discounting BL books which I don't read - a game should cover the setting in source books).

When I've got no idea if the stakes of a battle are even possible (why defend a city if there are none?), the setting is too vague. Too vague for a narrative game.

 Bottle wrote:
I'm reading the Ritual Battleplan and one of the ideas is to stop a Nurgle cult unleashing a plague on a city.

What cities? Do they mean Azyrheim because my impression is that is the only city in all the realms. Nothing in the setting has suggested otherwise (discounting BL books which I don't read - a game should cover the setting in source books).

When I've got no idea if the stakes of a battle are even possible (why defend a city if there are none?), the setting is too vague. Too vague for a narrative game.

It's just one idea for a scenario; at most, it's a minor inconsistency and I wouldn't let it ruin the whole setting for me. If the defend-the-city idea doesn't work for you, use one of the other ideas.

Anyway, Azyrheim is the last of the "great" cities, untarnished by the Age of Chaos. In my mind, other cities still exist - even some of the great cities of the Age of Myth - but they're hollow, ruined visions of their former glory. Remember, at the start of the Age of Sigmar, the dominion of Chaos is "almost" complete. There can still be pockets of civilization in the realms and free people fighting to survive. I think we haven't heard much of those civilizations because they aren't important yet to the greater story of Sigmar's war against the forces of Chaos, but as the Stormcast Eternals continue to liberate the realms, we'll see more of the culture and civilization of the people they're avenging.

@Lithlandis - I've seen more than enough in my local area to indicate that your view is by no means universal.
YOU want this stuff. That's fine.
Others don't need / want it to be able to play or enjoy the drip feed approach.

I'm not saying the approach GW has taken is 'right' but I can see the logic of it.
It all boils down to the fact that GW's opinion on that is the one that matters, because it's their schedule and planning. You can either accept/put up with it, or drop out completely. Again, your choice.
The foundations *are* there. What's missing is the wiring, plumbing and plasterwork.

RoperPG wrote:
@Lithlandis - I've seen more than enough in my local area to indicate that your view is by no means universal.
YOU want this stuff. That's fine.
Others don't need / want it to be able to play or enjoy the drip feed approach.

And I've seen more in my local area and elsewhere to indicate that yours is the same - see how I can do it too?

Yes, yes you can. You can release a first book (or trilogy, as mentioned) explaining the general (that is: all the factions) mythos - bridging the background with the exploded rock that was before - and then go from there.

Think Silmarillion. How hard would it be for GW to do something like that?

Mmm - the first book of a trilogy, using an example of something that was posthumously published after the books it was describing the mythos for.

Maybe that is what GW are in fact doing. Do the 'now' stuff then later release the 'first' book, just like the Silmarillion.

 Atolyr wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
I'm reading the Ritual Battleplan and one of the ideas is to stop a Nurgle cult unleashing a plague on a city.

What cities? Do they mean Azyrheim because my impression is that is the only city in all the realms. Nothing in the setting has suggested otherwise (discounting BL books which I don't read - a game should cover the setting in source books).

When I've got no idea if the stakes of a battle are even possible (why defend a city if there are none?), the setting is too vague. Too vague for a narrative game.

It's just one idea for a scenario; at most, it's a minor inconsistency and I wouldn't let it ruin the whole setting for me. If the defend-the-city idea doesn't work for you, use one of the other ideas.

Anyway, Azyrheim is the last of the "great" cities, untarnished by the Age of Chaos. In my mind, other cities still exist - even some of the great cities of the Age of Myth - but they're hollow, ruined visions of their former glory. Remember, at the start of the Age of Sigmar, the dominion of Chaos is "almost" complete. There can still be pockets of civilization in the realms and free people fighting to survive. I think we haven't heard much of those civilizations because they aren't important yet to the greater story of Sigmar's war against the forces of Chaos, but as the Stormcast Eternals continue to liberate the realms, we'll see more of the culture and civilization of the people they're avenging.

I want there to be cities. I want there to be towns, cities and villages all over the place. And if they are coming then - great! I can't wait! I can't wait so much that it's frustrating to have to wait! Haha. I am ready to love Age of Sigmar - see my plog - I've already put together an army and have plans for another 3 - just tell me about the mortals - the Aelves the Duardin and the little humans - put it all in a giant sourcebook and I would buy the limited edition.

here here!

someone, somewhere is defending their patch of the realms, either because they have no choice or decided to make a stand against the ravening hordes.

Gimmie that mortal's story.

There hasn't been much fluff on the mortal races because GW want the stormcast to be the big heroes of the setting. It's such a shame really, because I'd much rather hear about some heroic human character that I can relate to, and all we have at the minute are the stories of Sigmar's godly warriors from above. So far they haven't paid much attention to the setting itself, so I have no idea what they're all fighting over.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

RoperPG wrote:
@Lithlandis - I've seen more than enough in my local area to indicate that your view is by no means universal.
YOU want this stuff. That's fine.
Others don't need / want it to be able to play or enjoy the drip feed approach.

And I've seen more in my local area and elsewhere to indicate that yours is the same - see how I can do it too?

No. You made an empirical statement. You were expressing opinion as fact. I demonstrated it wasn't.

I get it, we're not going to agree on this.

Sure, the WHFB setting is 30 years old. That also means GW should have 30 yeara of experience at writing a good setting. The amount of written material so far for AoS should be more than adequate for there not to be questions about where hugely important places in the game even exist.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sure, the WHFB setting is 30 years old. That also means GW should have 30 yeara of experience at writing a good setting. The amount of written material so far for AoS should be more than adequate for there not to be questions about where hugely important places in the game even exist.

Are we referring to the image on the first page of this thread? I thought it had already been said - that's Sigmaron, floating above Azyrheim in the Realm of Azyr.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Sure, the WHFB setting is 30 years old. That also means GW should have 30 yeara of experience at writing a good setting. The amount of written material so far for AoS should be more than adequate for there not to be questions about where hugely important places in the game even exist.

It's not just experience here, it's volume of work.
After the last end times book, GW were in a position to publish an entire encyclopaedia on the Old World, running from macro timelines down to the general temperament of canine companions for rodent removal specialists...
There's essentially two 'anti' arguments for the AoS setting - one, it's too fantastical.
This is entirely legitimate. Some like that kind of thing, some don't. One of the more unique factors in the Old World setting was it's grittiness. It's now gone a bit discworld, with magic seemingly a requirement for its' existence, rather than an interesting diversion.
This won't change, so people who don't buy it now won't buy it later.

The second is that it isn't detailed enough, and this is the one that only time can fix.
Just looking at what was available in the last edition of WFB. The BRB was around half background. Each army.book similar. Plus you had novels covering each of the major players in detail, etc. etc. That's a /massive/ amount of typeface.
There are people who have background libraries running into the thousands of £, amassed over years. If GW had done the same for AoS, that would be great for some, but massively daunting for others - where do you even start?!
It would also be baiting IP issues - say they'd released a book detailing the history of the Duardin Steamheads and the Aelfs. Great. The book details a battle that features a Duardin Drakeguard vs. An Aelf Shadowknife. Without physical products with those names attached, there's no TM to defend and anyone could start producing stuff with those names - meaning GW facing possible legal action over something they invented.

It's not an approach I particularly agree with - but I can understand the logic for a company that has repeatedly had its' fingers burnt in IP/TM land.

puree wrote:

Yes, yes you can. You can release a first book (or trilogy, as mentioned) explaining the general (that is: all the factions) mythos - bridging the background with the exploded rock that was before - and then go from there.

Think Silmarillion. How hard would it be for GW to do something like that?

Mmm - the first book of a trilogy, using an example of something that was posthumously published after the books it was describing the mythos for.

Maybe that is what GW are in fact doing. Do the 'now' stuff then later release the 'first' book, just like the Silmarillion.

Cute, but I used the Silmarillion as an example of the book's content, not its timing. If you wanna say opening a new brand with so much "fiction" (quickreads... pfff) pointing at just two directions while ignoring the other 10 or so i good well... feel free.

If you truly believe that was a good idea for supporting the setting as a whole - yeah, I kinda rest my case there.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

RoperPG wrote:
There are people who have background libraries running into the thousands of £, amassed over years. If GW had done the same for AoS, that would be great for some, but massively daunting for others - where do you even start?!

You start just like you started with FB/40k - you pick up the book(s? nah, that'd be too much for GW, clearly) that details the general mythos (aka gives a moderate attention to ALL factions) and then one that goes in depth with the faction you chose to play with.

Taking into account the "bloody stormy" originality of the fluff released so far, GW could (conceivably but you can never tell with them) push out a consistent general mythos book followed by a single fluff book - it doesn't have to be overly long, just enough to flesh out what happened to the race you played in - to keep you hooked. It could even be something cheap for once (15£?).

A book for the heavenly stormy marines, one for the skully bloody chaoses, one for the celestial sunny seraphon, for the lighty highly elvies, for the grumpy angry dwarves, etc etc etc....

Chances are AoS would've had better fluff support and GW would have made more cash.

Actually, I'm not even sure how any of the mortal races are supposed to have survived the destruction of the Old World. The planet was reduced to its molten core, that sounds like a situation somewhat hostile to life.

Ok, if the Empire is centered on a space station now, I'd like to dub it the Death Star


But from the picture, that's a Ringworld.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Actually, I'm not even sure how any of the mortal races are supposed to have survived the destruction of the Old World. The planet was reduced to its molten core, that sounds like a situation somewhat hostile to life.

Maybe if you jump at the right time, and miss the ground, you don't fall into the magma/lava?

What isn't clear is whether the realms existed prior to the death of the Old World. Sigmar was 'stranded' until the big dragon showed him the mortal realms (IIRC).
I don't think they did, and my impression is that the 'rift' split up the essence of the Old world into winds of magic in physical form, a bit like a prism refracting white light into separate colours.
So the realms winked into existence with versions of the races of the Old world in situ. The older gods/elementals being brought to the realms by Sigmar (or just turning up, in Chaos' case) provided the narrative history link to the past, which accounts - for example - how there are humans and Dwarfs living in Azyr who 'maintain the ways and traditions of the past'. They aren't the *same* people, but they've recovered their history.
But that's all just my theory that meets the existing facts.

The thing is, I don't really believe that GW knows the answers to the questions they've brought up. Here's an example from the past:

- When they decided to write a background for the Necrons, Andy Chambers said he was happy that not all of the loose ends were tied up in the fluff, and he could use this tiny mention about the C'tan and create a background for the Necrons around that.


That tells us two things.

- First lesson- GW's fluff writers had no qualms about creating mysteries without knowing their answers.

When they introduced the Necron race, they didn't have a plan for their fluff. The first wave of fluff was basically "Their story is shrouded in mystery." And Chambers admitted that they did not know the answers to the mysteries at the time.

- Second- they let their fluff writers run free with a philosophy that it is better to create lots of the loose ends, and just leave space for future fluff writers to fill in.


So, when we're introduced to a new setting that seems to be made of untied loose ends, I honestly don't feel like GW has it all planned out. Maybe their philosophy has changed, but it sure doesn't look like it to me.

 odinsgrandson wrote:


So, when we're introduced to a new setting that seems to be made of untied loose ends, I honestly don't feel like GW has it all planned out.

I am sure they don't. GW writers have always put hooks in their writing that can be revisited at a later date.

I hope that doesn't mean the Empire or free people's are still nothing but a loose end. I originally made this thread because I thought the writers had made a mistake... Surely they meant Azyrheim rather than Sigmaron??

Well this was unexpected. It's like Stargate Atlantis has mated with Norse Mythology and 40K in a bizzare ménage à trois to create this Sigmar fluff.

 Bottle wrote:

 Atolyr wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
I'm reading the Ritual Battleplan and one of the ideas is to stop a Nurgle cult unleashing a plague on a city.

What cities? Do they mean Azyrheim because my impression is that is the only city in all the realms. Nothing in the setting has suggested otherwise (discounting BL books which I don't read - a game should cover the setting in source books).

When I've got no idea if the stakes of a battle are even possible (why defend a city if there are none?), the setting is too vague. Too vague for a narrative game.

It's just one idea for a scenario; at most, it's a minor inconsistency and I wouldn't let it ruin the whole setting for me. If the defend-the-city idea doesn't work for you, use one of the other ideas.

Anyway, Azyrheim is the last of the "great" cities, untarnished by the Age of Chaos. In my mind, other cities still exist - even some of the great cities of the Age of Myth - but they're hollow, ruined visions of their former glory. Remember, at the start of the Age of Sigmar, the dominion of Chaos is "almost" complete. There can still be pockets of civilization in the realms and free people fighting to survive. I think we haven't heard much of those civilizations because they aren't important yet to the greater story of Sigmar's war against the forces of Chaos, but as the Stormcast Eternals continue to liberate the realms, we'll see more of the culture and civilization of the people they're avenging.

I want there to be cities. I want there to be towns, cities and villages all over the place. And if they are coming then - great! I can't wait! I can't wait so much that it's frustrating to have to wait! Haha. I am ready to love Age of Sigmar - see my plog - I've already put together an army and have plans for another 3 - just tell me about the mortals - the Aelves the Duardin and the little humans - put it all in a giant sourcebook and I would buy the limited edition.

There are lots of towns, cities, villages etc, but unfortunately for you this stuff is mostly in the novels. Most of the featured ones are conquered by Chaos, some very recently, and they are usually described in general terms at least. There is an example in the most recent book of a small village on the outskirts of a conquered town, where the inhabitants (presumably being so insignificant that Chaos can't be bothered to kill them just yet) have taken to some sort of semi-Chaos worship, by donning masks made of scrap, pathetically trying to ape the horrific faces of their new masters. It had a Polynesian vibe to it which I found interesting. In another story a Nurgle warband comes across a fortress monastery in the middle of a forest, where survivors of Chaos attacks have gathered and built up a ramshackle town on and around the structure. These are all normal humans living in these places.

It sounds promising. As I don't read the novels (and don't plan to), I can only hope they begin putting this sort of background in the source books too.

I have high hopes for the Fyre slayer book. Let's hope it reveals the mortal side of the forces of Order at last.

Another interesting thing to consider is that the new chaos knights lore snippets mention that even mortal lords and kings fear them.

So amongst the vastness of the realms there is a strong possibility that some minor kingdoms remain untouched since chaos may have been too busy fighting amongst themselves.

i think it could make sense to have Empire and Bretonnia survivors living in Sigmaron (the "space station"). They are the remnants of warlike people, filled with desire of vengeance and retribution. And Sigmaron seems like the place of Azyr devoted to the preparation of war: the forges, the quarters of the Stormcast...
It's true that Duardin and Aelfs are said to inhabit Azyrheim, and they should be as warlike as these people or more. But I got the impression Azyrheim was the "civilian" city of the Realm.

I just imagine that the Warhammer setting is like Alara in Magic: The Gathering.

One world shattered into eight fragments. So Aqshy is the Old World as viewed through the Wind of Fire. Azyr is the Old World as viewed through the Wind of Heavens. Ulgu is the Old World as viewed through the Wind of Shadow.

So Malerion's realm in Ulgu is Athel Loren but shadowy and Alariel's ream in Ghyran is Athel Loren but vibrant . You could step into a Realmgate on one plane and step out of one on the other in approximately the same place but in another world. Then the All Points would be the actual ruins of the Old World.

So Ghyran might be the "Emerald Dream" (to use Warcraft) equivalent for the world, what it would be like if nature had been left alone. Whereas Chamon is metal infused (Mirrodin from MTG). Shyish is death infused (Innistrad from MTG.) The All Points could be a shattered "Outland" (again to use Warcraft) fragments of the World That Was held together in the void by gravity and magic.

So Azyrheim would be a massively sprawling rebuilt Altdorf as it would exist in the Realm of Heavens. Sigmaron can be Sigmar's city on the moon.

 Col. Tartleton wrote:
I just imagine that the Warhammer setting is like Alara in Magic: The Gathering.

One world shattered into eight fragments. So Aqshy is the Old World as viewed through the Wind of Fire. Azyr is the Old World as viewed through the Wind of Heavens. Ulgu is the Old World as viewed through the Wind of Shadow.

So Malerion's realm in Ulgu is Athel Loren but shadowy and Alariel's ream in Ghyran is Athel Loren but vibrant. You could step into a Realmgate on one plane and step out of one on the other in approximately the same place but in another world. Then the All Points would be the actual ruins of the Old World.

So Azyrheim would be a massively sprawling rebuilt Altdorf as it would exist in the Realm of Heavens. Sigmaron can be Sigmar's city on the moon.

Canon or not, this theory sounds great!