Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Crime in the USA is also frequently committed by immigrants. Shouldn't have let those in either, and have left it all to the Native Americans, right?

Thats what the Comanches sure thought. Lets ask the Iroquois their opinion of immigration...

 Frazzled wrote:

Crime in the USA is also frequently committed by immigrants. Shouldn't have let those in either, and have left it all to the Native Americans, right?

Thats what the Comanches sure thought. Lets ask the Iroquois their opinion of immigration...

I'm sure they'd start complaining about how all those immigrants are rapists, and then they'd start complaining about the chieftain trying to take away their "self defense" scalpels!

 stanman wrote:
An armed society is generally a polite society. Take away the ability to defend oneself and you get chaos.

Japan seems nice and orderly and they have some of the strictest weapon restrictions in the world.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

I believe that this is the work of an organization intent on creating more and more hate for Muslims, hoping that this'll lead to young Muslims feeling excluded from society and as a result leading to radicalization.

That is some tin foil hat stuff.

Much more likely it was done by a group of crap bags who because of various cultural reasons view women, and especially women not of their culture, as objects to be used.

Disgusting, and I too hope they catch the perps and apply suitable punishment.

That whole thing is absolutely horrendous. A ton of women get attacked, and the local government creates a "code of conduct" for the women, that is ridiculous. Put the attackers in jail. All of them.

 CptJake wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

I believe that this is the work of an organization intent on creating more and more hate for Muslims, hoping that this'll lead to young Muslims feeling excluded from society and as a result leading to radicalization.

That is some tin foil hat stuff.

Much more likely it was done by a group of crap bags who because of various cultural reasons view women, and especially women not of their culture, as objects to be used.

Disgusting, and I too hope they catch the perps and apply suitable punishment.

I don't know, but leading groups of women wth fireworks into groups of people that start touching them sounds like it's organized to at least some extent to me.

Maybe not, but the fear of gun is probably the best way to get savages to not rape people, as obviously the Police can't protect women.

 godardc wrote:
but the fear of gun is probably the best way to get savages to not rape people

I thought ladies were supposed to urinate on their attackers these days?

I reckon it's not any kind of false flag but a bunch of scumbags with crappy attitudes. It's not like the region is famous for it's progressive attitudes towards women or anything.

Seems like they won't catch any of them though - no CCTV in the area it happened apparently, and how are the women concerned going to pick perps out of such a big mob?

Shocking that the Cologne police didn't notice this and disperse them at the time, the German police are usually pretty on the ball about public order stuff. Maybe they're all knackered from pulling extra shifts watching the Christmas Markets for an attack.

 Asherian Command wrote:


Hopefully the predators are arrested or deported.

I think that's unlikely in the extreme. If the perpetrators weren't caught and detained in the act, how could they be found or prosecuted? It's not like they can take fingerprints or anything like that. I think I read there was only one rape which they could make a case out of, if they could get a DNA match from someone, which would be more than a little difficult.

It'd be great if they could find the people responsible, but I don't think there's any real way to do so. And being unable to bring them to justice is going to strain german-refugee relations, which I think are already strained.

It's awful bighearted to house so many refugees, but sooner or later, I think things like these are bound to happen. I saw this article the other day on historical effects of long-term refugee adoption. https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/learning-from-history-belgian-wwi-refugees-in-britain.html/2

It's titled "learning from history", but the only lesson I gleaned is that eventually refugee-host nation relationships tend to decay, and with a good deal of civil unrest.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know, I just noticed that there's some actual germans in the thread.

How do you guys feel about your country's policy for adopting Syrian refugees, and have your opinions been changed in light of this event?

I'm not German, an Irishman living in Germany, but I think it's a very ethical move that is probably going to fail in it's goals due to a lack of solidarity from other European countries, notably France and the UK, the next two biggest and richest countries in the Union.

This crisis cannot be wished away and the alternative to the German approach are not realistic or are (in my opinion) very unethical.

However I think even a country as big, strong, and open minded as Germany will struggle to cope with the crisis on it's own. I'm getting pretty sick of the lack of leadership displayed by France and the UK on big European issues to be honest. (Throw Ireland in there as well, even though we did say we'd take some refugees in, we could afford to do more than we're doing).

Edit: And this event just makes me feel very depressed, angry at the perpetrators ignorance and crappy behaviour, and even less hopeful that the entire saga will have a happy ending. I figured we'd have some incidents and crimes due to this wave of immigration - it's inevitable. But what happened on new years is worse than the isolated incidents I was worrying about and does not bode well.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 stanman wrote:
An armed society is generally a polite society. Take away the ability to defend oneself and you get chaos.

Japan seems nice and orderly and they have some of the strictest weapon restrictions in the world.

It also overwhelmingly has the highest per capita suicide rate in the world, but what this talk about guns in Japan has to do with the attacks in Germany I don't know.

Make it clear any repeat means being deported if caught.

Great way to repay the nation taking you in from a hellish warzone....

Need to make it very clear what is and is not appropriate. If you make it clear, no one can say they where not told. Its a different world, they need to lead new rules to operate with in it

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 stanman wrote:
An armed society is generally a polite society. Take away the ability to defend oneself and you get chaos.

Japan seems nice and orderly and they have some of the strictest weapon restrictions in the world.

You have to be orderly to know where the nearest Kaiju raid shelter is. Come on, they're distracted.

 Frazzled wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 stanman wrote:
An armed society is generally a polite society. Take away the ability to defend oneself and you get chaos.

Japan seems nice and orderly and they have some of the strictest weapon restrictions in the world.

You have to be orderly to know where the nearest Kaiju raid shelter is. Come on, they're distracted.

Big Gun has nothing on Big Monster eh?

The thought occurred to me that perhaps someone videod some of what happened on their phones. Maybe the police will be able to identify people from the likes of that and make some arrests? I really don't want them to get away with this.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 stanman wrote:
An armed society is generally a polite society. Take away the ability to defend oneself and you get chaos.

Japan seems nice and orderly and they have some of the strictest weapon restrictions in the world.

Aren't they also plagued with groping incidents on trains and up skirt cams? They seem to have a very different slant for how women are treated in public.

Topic guys, topic.

 stanman wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 stanman wrote:
An armed society is generally a polite society. Take away the ability to defend oneself and you get chaos.

Japan seems nice and orderly and they have some of the strictest weapon restrictions in the world.

Aren't they also plagued with groping incidents on trains and up skirt cams? They seem to have a very different slant for how women are treated in public.

I know I've heard all kind of horror stories about groping incidents on jam-packed Tokyo trains. I don't know how prevalent they are in reality, but I'm pretty sure it's more than an infrequent problem.

For the love of His Noodly Appendage, can we not have this become a gun thread.

There are many stories of Western women being mobbed and molested/raped by crowds in Middle Eastern countries. Reporter Lara Logan was set upon by a crowd of 200 in Egypt who together stripped and assaulted her like a pack of animals. There's simply not the same value placed on women's rights. Some of these countries accuse rape victims of adultery after all, there's no consideration of women being a human victim. You bring a swarm of that culture/people into one place, say a thousand for new year celebration, in a western country and the exact same could happen.

This I believe is the problem with mass immigration. Moderate Arab culture is still well behind western culture. We keep being told that there will be very few extremists and that most are 'moderate', so it's racist to be concerned. But I imagine this crowd are to be considered 'moderates', but still this culture is still very jarring in our culture. It means hundreds of these supposed moderate minded people are actually willing to violate women en masse and many more will not come forward to point the finger and give evidence against others in their community. There must be loads of witnesses to these attacks. Where are they? That's why no one will be prosecuted and why women are being given advice instead to give them a wide berth.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 stanman wrote:
An armed society is generally a polite society. Take away the ability to defend oneself and you get chaos.

Because the fear of gun violence is the best way to get people to be polite?

Armed doesn't always mean guns, there's plenty of ways to arm yourself against attackers.

Unfortunately there is always a segment of the population that is too stupid and inconsiderate to figure out how to interact with society in a responsible fashion. Often the only message they seem to grasp is one backed by threat of physical violence. They don't care what pain or suffering they would cause others, but when confronted by the fact their course of action might result in harm to themself (by somebody defending theself) they might be enlightened to the fact that somebody else may not want to be raped or assaulted. Some people need to be threatened with being shot, stabbed, or beaten about the head to realize what they are doing is wrong, and there's some that fail even at that point or just dont care and press the attack anyways

There was 1000 of them. How is one person with a weapon going to do anything to a mob that size? There's so much more to this than this self defense crap. No one can defend themselves from a giant mob.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
There are many stories of Western women being mobbed and molested/raped by crowds in Middle Eastern countries. Reporter Lara Logan was set upon by a crowd of 200 in Egypt who together stripped and assaulted her like a pack of animals. There's simply not the same value placed on women's rights. Some of these countries accuse rape victims of adultery after all, there's no consideration of women being a human victim. You bring a swarm of that culture/people into one place, say a thousand for new year celebration, in a western country and the exact same could happen.

This I believe is the problem with mass immigration. Moderate Arab culture is still well behind western culture. We keep being told that there will be very few extremists and that most are 'moderate', so it's racist to be concerned. But I imagine this crowd are to be considered 'moderates', but still this culture is still very jarring in our culture. It means hundreds of these supposed moderate minded people are actually willing to violate women en masse and many more will not come forward to point the finger and give evidence against others in their community. There must be loads of witnesses to these attacks. Where are they? That's why no one will be prosecuted and why women are being given advice instead to give them a wide berth.

European women should not have to hide in fear, cross a road to avoid them. They are guests in our countries and if they do not obey laws and cultural standards they should be dealt with and told what is expected, laws and such on arrival in Germany etc.

We are told to respect other nations when we visit or live in them. No difference. If you act like that, you are not welcome in our nations.

Send a strong message, others may simply fall into line.

 Da Boss wrote:
There was 1000 of them. How is one person with a weapon going to do anything to a mob that size? There's so much more to this than this self defense crap. No one can defend themselves from a giant mob.

I understand what you are saying. The counter point is not very often does the guy in front decide he is willing to die for the mob, and I assure you if a few rounds got popped off the Polizie would have converged with a vengeance...

Regardless though, German laws are what they are and the situation is what it is. Unfortunately Germans have never been very successful at getting the Turks to integrate into culture and society, and the newer immigrants are not likely to do so either. Without that integration you deal with the culture clashes. Unfortunately that means good folks get hurt. Once your official response is 'Be afraid of them and keep your distance', you've given up.

 Da Boss wrote:
There was 1000 of them. How is one person with a weapon going to do anything to a mob that size? There's so much more to this than this self defense crap. No one can defend themselves from a giant mob.

The women weren't attacked by all 1000 men. There were probably half a dozen or a dozen involved in each instance with a few leading the way and the rest following along emboldened by the security and sanctuary of the mob. I guarantee you that none of the attackers wanted to be stabbed or shot. Even in a group nobody wants to be the guy who catches a bullet or gets a knife in the gut. Threaten the boldest ones and they'll all hesitate you create space and flee. These scum are preying on people they perceive to be weak they don't want to deal with resistance. Anything that acts as a deterrent is good. If Germany is going to allow refugees to establish enclaves where women can't go because they'll be assaulted and raped then this will only escalate and lead to more violence.

 Da Boss wrote:
Those foreigners are fleeing a genocidal war in a region destabilised by our friendly neighbourhood world police.

This idea of foreigners being "let in" is ridiculous. It's a massive human wave which can only be compared to the end of WW2.

Syrians are fleeing from the difficult circumstances in refugee camps in Turkey, Libanon etc. not from the war. Virtually all refugees here in Europe already lived for years in Turkey or other countries in the region. They are economic refugees now. But whereas the Syrians can still be linked to war (if there hadn't been a war they would never have fled to Turkey etc. in the first place), North Africans have no such excuse, they should be deported.

Do some research on the conditions in the camps in Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan and come back to me, Iron Captain.

On the Turkish immigration - I agree, that was poorly handled. The administration at the time wanted some cheap low skill labour is my understanding, and the groups that came were not the most educated or forward thinking apparently. Though other waves of Turkish immigrants have integrated more successfully.

The syrians on the whole are more educated though, so I have a bit of hope that they'll integrate better. The Algerians and other North Africans have a different set of issues.

None of that should mean that women in Germany should have to put up with this crap though and I hope they come down hard on it.

 Da Boss wrote:
The evidence points to the majority of perpetrators being of Tunisian, Moroccan and Algerian extraction, not linked to the current wave of migration from Syria.

Though I wouldn't find it unbelievable that there were also Syrians and Turkish Germans in there as well.

If only there was some common ideology amongst men from those areas. Like a political philosophy or something. Some kind of common idea shared by people in those countries that views women as less than men.

Well I can't think of anything. Can anyone else? A doctrine espoused by men from those countries that claims women to be inferior to men. I'm stumped.

 Da Boss wrote:
Those foreigners are fleeing a genocidal war in a region destabilised by our friendly neighbourhood world police.

This idea of foreigners being "let in" is ridiculous. It's a massive human wave which can only be compared to the end of WW2.

To be clear though - the perpetrators are scum, women absolutely do not need to change their behaviour and anyone they can catch should be arrested or deported. This incident makes me extremely angry and I hope to feth it's taken seriously here. There's a terrible tendency to shy away from issues like this in Germany out of a misplaced sense of liberalism, and now is not the time for that. It's not the time for reactionary actions against refugees either.

So your position is that Germany is responsible for the instability in the Middle East and Africa and therefore is compelled by some kind of guilt driven moral imperative to create accommodations for tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of refugees that view German women as targets to be gang raped? That's a false obligation. German doesn't need to let refugees in and the country would be better off if they didn't.