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 Frozocrone wrote:
Jifel I meant a knight in the low slot. TACs would never do it

Would a Knight benefit from the +1 Initiative if it's a FW variety and actually part of the detachment? That's an interesting question, I may have to look into that.

I've actually found it pretty easy to take down the wraith knights with my Dark Angels Ravenwing Army. Yes, I do use Grav guns with the army, but I've also learned that Dark Angels Psychic Powers make for some good gargantuan creature annoyers also. Forcing them to snap fire is a good way to nupe those pesky templates. I've had pretty good luck against both tau storm surges and wraith knights.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Get a really big piece of cheese and put a marine sticker on it

fighting fire with fire

Make it a nice chunk of mature stilton for added psychological warfare capabilities.

BS6 for being well aged.

How about ally Space Wolve army, bring Librarian Conclave on bikes to support a 6 guys TWC star, three of the cavary carrying PF, while everybody grab a stormshield. Throw in a SW commander with PF and Lightning Claw? The SM librarian roll on Telepathy until get invisibility, when get it, the rest libby may turn to Biomancy. It maybe like 18 or so S10 attacks on the charge, should be able to take down the WK on the charge, while the invisibility help to survive the enemy attacks. Yes it looks like almost 800pts or so, but it is highly mobile and devastating if catch their prey in assault so maybe good to counter not just one WK but two or more of them, as well as other Eldar units like WG in wave serpent, Warp spiders, Jetbikes, etc.

I like deepstrike Grav stars, either Droppod Centurion or Skyhammer formations, they are really good counter in Marine arsenal against almost all MCs running out there. However, they need supports like Psychic powers to gain ignore cover or invisibility for survival, and maybe a beatstick character to fend off enemy melee units. Whatsoever, their most severe problem is lack of mobility after the drop and Grav cannon is relatively short ranged, which makes them actually some must have expensive suicide unit in competitive games like tournament, because after their alpha strike, the survivor in opponent army could just run away from them or even worse, they are tied up by fast tarpit units in assault phase or die quickly in enemy retaliation. The situation is even worse when considering that Eldar WK, along with Jetbikes, Warp spiders, are insanely mobile and significantly undercosted, while they can have AP 2 / pseudo rending everywhere. A smart Eldar player can easily do target / threat saturation, and simply sacrifice one or two of his WKs to lure the Grav star to where he want them to be. The Marine Grav star can not doubt destroy one of the WK in one go, but they cannot keep that kind of damage output in the subsequent turns to deal with the rest part of the Eldar army or maybe even cannot last long under the return fire. Eventually losing the whole game.

 Frozocrone wrote:
TACs would never do it

Oh ye of little faith!

Let's take a Tactical Veteran Sgt with a Thunder Hammer. He belongs to the Blood Angel faction, obviously. As I've learned from Martel, BA Tacs are the natural foes of the Eldar Wraithknight. The bravest Tactical Sgt in the Imperium is supported by a Librarian, Sanguinary Priest and Ordo Xenos Inquisitor.

Luck is on our side; We get the charge off, roll +3A on Quickening and also get Unleash Rage. With 4 courageous Tac marines forming a noble speedbump to protect him, the Tac Sgt now strikes with a staggering 8 attacks at WS5, with rerolls to hit from the Inquisitor's Liber Heresius. Wounding on 2's, thanks to FC and a -1T debuff from Rad Grenades. Wow! The humanity! Go BA tacticals!

8(8/9)(5/6) = 5.93W! What a guy! Take that stupid WK! Oh wait... saves. ~4W with FNP. Boo! Hiss! Eldar OP!!

So it appears a BA Tac Sgt can't one-shot a WK. But between Concussive and FNP, let's give him a second round to redeem himself, and again give him +3A from Quickening. So, 6A at WS5 (Hatred, Rad grenades, and FC are no longer in effect). The Priest, Libby and Inquisitor are still too busy placing bets and holding the Sergeant's beer to participate in the combat.

6(2/3)(1/2) = 2W! So, ~1.3W with FNP. Total? ~5.3W. The Wraithknight splatters everyone. The end.

Wait.... what about the rest of the Tactical squad? As dedicated WK hunters from the Baal SF, they strike at Init 5 on the charge. So let's return to the first assault phase: 4x Marines, 3A each at WS5, rerolling hits and wounding on 6's. You can do it boys! Better to die on your feet, than live as a glorified taxi service! Who needs Obsec?

12(8/9)(1/6)(1/3) = ~0.59W, ~0.39W with FNP. So the total is.... ~5.68W! Die WK die! The Ordo Xenos Inquisitor collects from the BA Librarian and Priest, who had both bet against their own army based on experience. We'll just ignore any other relevant factors, like how Tacs get a sucessful charge on a Jump GMC or how you roll perfect Psyker phases.

The moral of the story: Tacs probably won't kill a WK, but no matter how sensible your point is, people on Dakka Dakka will find a way to argue with you about anything

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
TACs would never do it

Oh ye of little faith!

Let's take a Tactical Veteran Sgt with a Thunder Hammer. He belongs to the Blood Angel faction, obviously. As I've learned from Martel, BA Tacs are the natural foes of the Eldar Wraithknight. The bravest Tactical Sgt in the Imperium is supported by a Librarian, Sanguinary Priest and Ordo Xenos Inquisitor.

Luck is on our side; We get the charge off, roll +3A on Quickening and also get Unleash Rage. With 4 courageous Tac marines forming a noble speedbump to protect him, the Tac Sgt now strikes with a staggering 8 attacks at WS5, with rerolls to hit from the Inquisitor's Liber Heresius. Wounding on 2's, thanks to FC and a -1T debuff from Rad Grenades. Wow! The humanity! Go BA tacticals!

8(8/9)(5/6) = 5.93W! What a guy! Take that stupid WK! Oh wait... saves. ~4W with FNP. Boo! Hiss! Eldar OP!!

So it appears a BA Tac Sgt can't one-shot a WK. But between Concussive and FNP, let's give him a second round to redeem himself, and again give him +3A from Quickening. So, 6A at WS5 (Hatred, Rad grenades, and FC are no longer in effect). The Priest, Libby and Inquisitor are still too busy placing bets and holding the Sergeant's beer to participate in the combat.

6(2/3)(1/2) = 2W! So, ~1.3W with FNP. Total? ~5.3W. The Wraithknight splatters everyone. The end.

Wait.... what about the rest of the Tactical squad? As dedicated WK hunters from the Baal SF, they strike at Init 5 on the charge. So let's return to the first assault phase: 4x Marines, 3A each at WS5, rerolling hits and wounding on 6's. You can do it boys! Better to die on your feet, than live as a glorified taxi service! Who needs Obsec?

12(8/9)(1/6)(1/3) = ~0.59W, ~0.39W with FNP. So the total is.... ~5.68W! Die WK die! The Ordo Xenos Inquisitor collects from the BA Librarian and Priest, who had both bet against their own army based on experience. We'll just ignore any other relevant factors, like how Tacs get a sucessful charge on a Jump GMC or how you roll perfect Psyker phases.

The moral of the story: Tacs probably won't kill a WK, but no matter how sensible your point is, people on Dakka Dakka will find a way to argue with you about anything

This made me chuckle, i appreciate the effort that went into this. I think it goes to show how many other things need to work out to hurt this thing. Shooting it to death isn't to tough if your willing to take the right weapons, but melee is a different beast. Every scenario I've seen involves the imperial superfriends and psychic powers going off and managing to catch up with something that can jump around the board with ease.

Problem is that if it is running from the star it is t doing much of anything. They are super under costed and hard to kill for their points, but they are kill able. You basically need to do 9 wounds to get through the FNP. This varies based on load out obviously.

Unless your opponent rolls 8 or 9 sixes in one game like mine did.....fething stomps.....you don't really need to worry about the d ranged one, two shots is not that big of a deal with cover. Cc one has no shooting to worry about as well. Grav is ideal, however the best platforms either junk or are susceptible to the wraithknight in return(things like centurions).

I find the issue is not usually the wraithknight as it is the rest of the army backing it up because more than 2 means e army points efficiency shoots throug the roof

icefire78 wrote:
I've actually found it pretty easy to take down the wraith knights with my Dark Angels Ravenwing Army. Yes, I do use Grav guns with the army, but I've also learned that Dark Angels Psychic Powers make for some good gargantuan creature annoyers also. Forcing them to snap fire is a good way to nupe those pesky templates. I've had pretty good luck against both tau storm surges and wraith knights.

I play DA, so maybe I will try this, although I can count the Wraithknights I've ever faced on one hand around here. Interromancy can really hurt GC, so really any DA player should take Librarians (or even Ezekiel) just to get access to these powers.

Here's an interesting idea: form a deathstar consisting of 5 Deathwing Knights, Belial with his sword and storm bolter, Ezekiel (running Interromancy powers), and possibly an Interrogator chaplain (he's there for the rerolls, but should probably have Mace of Redemption to add to the attack). Put the whole works into a Land Raider Crusader. Expensive as hell, and requires two CADs to get all those characters, but any Wraithknights, Stormsurges, or just about anything else they can catch, is going to die. Period. T8 will not save you when two of the characters attacking you have Fleshbane (Belial and the DW Knight Master). The big problem is that they are slow, and the WK can probably just pop the LR before it gets too close. Still, I may try running that deathstar in a casual game and see how it does.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

icefire78 wrote:
I've actually found it pretty easy to take down the wraith knights with my Dark Angels Ravenwing Army. Yes, I do use Grav guns with the army, but I've also learned that Dark Angels Psychic Powers make for some good gargantuan creature annoyers also. Forcing them to snap fire is a good way to nupe those pesky templates. I've had pretty good luck against both tau storm surges and wraith knights.

I play DA, so maybe I will try this, although I can count the Wraithknights I've ever faced on one hand around here. Interromancy can really hurt GC, so really any DA player should take Librarians (or even Ezekiel) just to get access to these powers.

Here's an interesting idea: form a deathstar consisting of 5 Deathwing Knights, Belial with his sword and storm bolter, Ezekiel (running Interromancy powers), and possibly an Interrogator chaplain (he's there for the rerolls, but should probably have Mace of Redemption to add to the attack). Put the whole works into a Land Raider Crusader. Expensive as hell, and requires two CADs to get all those characters, but any Wraithknights, Stormsurges, or just about anything else they can catch, is going to die. Period. T8 will not save you when two of the characters attacking you have Fleshbane (Belial and the DW Knight Master). The big problem is that they are slow, and the WK can probably just pop the LR before it gets too close. Still, I may try running that deathstar in a casual game and see how it does.

I run a list of basically 6 squads of 6x Ravenwing bikes with 2 of them having 2 meltas and 4 having 2 Grav Guns, 2 Shrouds, 2 talons, and 3 librarians on bikes in a ravenwing detacment. 1 lof those squads has an attack bike as well with MM. I've found the strike fast method works very well against a lot of armies, and being able to get high cover saves with ravenwing means the only retaliation you have to be careful of is the ignores cover kind.

 Armada13 wrote:
What about Imperial Knight?

Tried it. IK get no invul in cc so the WK just murdered 2 IK at one time if it gets into combat. Like if 2 IK foolishly charges the WK, the WK hits at i5 after shrugging off 2 HoW attacks and can take ghost glaive and scat shield to blind and hit with 4 str D attacks.

 Filch wrote:

 Armada13 wrote:
What about Imperial Knight?

Tried it. IK get no invul in cc so the WK just murdered 2 IK at one time if it gets into combat. Like if 2 IK foolishly charges the WK, the WK hits at i5 after shrugging off 2 HoW attacks and can take ghost glaive and scat shield to blind and hit with 4 str D attacks.

The only IK that can do it is the Lancer. And you pretty muc hwant him to be the warlord. Helps a lot to have him with invisibility to get him there.

Yep. Lancer. Make him your warlord and give him Sanctuary and the helm that gives him rampage. Killy. I know OP was talking about marines but Lancer as high king in an exalted court murders pretty much anything it can reach.

 jifel wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Jifel I meant a knight in the low slot. TACs would never do it

Would a Knight benefit from the +1 Initiative if it's a FW variety and actually part of the detachment? That's an interesting question, I may have to look into that.

Yeah it's models, not non-vehicles, meaning walkers benefit.

Meaning that a Lancer knight would strike before the Wraithknight if it charges.

Granted, it's 100 pts more than the wraithknight, but its generally accepted that the Wraithknight is undercoated. Strength D at I6 is nothing to scoff at regardless.

Well the real question Imho is not how you deal with a single wraithknight but how you deal with two. Most competitive Eldar lists will deploy two, one of the close combat variety and one of the ranged D variety.

Grav the ranged D first turn, then the Melee variant. Props go to White Scars, who can bike a command squad out of threat range of the melee variant and ignore a toe in ruins cover of the ranged one with the Hunter's Eye.

Side note, ITC only allows one Wraithknight, making it easier to deal with in that format. You're otherwise correct.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Grav the ranged D first turn, then the Melee variant. Props go to White Scars, who can bike a command squad out of threat range of the melee variant and ignore a toe in ruins cover of the ranged one with the Hunter's Eye.

Side note, ITC only allows one Wraithknight, making it easier to deal with in that format. You're otherwise correct.

Scars are really the only competitive SM faction anyway. A Bike Captain with a Combi-Grav and five Gravgun Bikers is about the only way to effectively deal with a WK for SM, IMO. Scars just do it better.

Take it off the table and hide it when the other player isn't looking?

In all seriousness, grav bikers to be able to get into range quickly and have the full grav salvo. Combine that with grav centurions (don't forget the grav amp!) and keeping your butt cheeks squeezed together whilst praying to the emperor.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Grav the ranged D first turn, then the Melee variant. Props go to White Scars, who can bike a command squad out of threat range of the melee variant and ignore a toe in ruins cover of the ranged one with the Hunter's Eye.

Side note, ITC only allows one Wraithknight, making it easier to deal with in that format. You're otherwise correct.

Scars are really the only competitive SM faction anyway. A Bike Captain with a Combi-Grav and five Gravgun Bikers is about the only way to effectively deal with a WK for SM, IMO. Scars just do it better.

Scars ARE the best SM faction, but Iwould say Smurfs are pretty darn good. especially in a gladius. Their numerous doctrines give them a LOT of versatility. It kills me saying that about smurfs. HATE HATE HATE them so much. I jump around the table with glee and joy every time I kill a unit of smurfs or beat a smurfs player (well mentally I do).