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 Gashrog wrote:
Erm. Battletech has a stated game scale of 30 metres her hex, both the Medium Laser and the AC/20 have a maximum range of 9 hexes, which gives a maximum effective range of 270 metres..

Which is pretty impressive compared to the 2 metres per tabletop inch of 40K guns. A Lascannon has a max range of 96 metres. And this makes perfect sense seeing as how models can make it into close combat before getting shot up...

Spetulhu wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:
Erm. Battletech has a stated game scale of 30 metres her hex, both the Medium Laser and the AC/20 have a maximum range of 9 hexes, which gives a maximum effective range of 270 metres..

Which is pretty impressive compared to the 2 metres per tabletop inch of 40K guns. A Lascannon has a max range of 96 metres. And this makes perfect sense seeing as how models can make it into close combat before getting shot up...

Exactly.
Gashrog you also seem to have missed out on the Extended and LOS rules. The ranges given are the close effective ranges of the guns, weapons can fire out to twice the listed range whilst dealing slightly less damage than usual and beyond that they can fire as far as they can see, dealing very little damage.

Its pretty hard to compare. One is hard sci-fi, and the other one is more fantasy-like.

what kind of laser is a lascannon? what happens when you shoot a mech with a grav cannon? Can you use a psychic power to possess the mech pilot or make his brain explode? Can you field a legion of nothing but ER-PPCs and destroy everything before they get into range? Can they send an assassin with a vortex grenade? Can I send a lance of light mechs to DFA titans to death? What happens when a Kodiak punches an imperator titan?

For the sake of fun, I'd say the 40k side will win, because they have more over-the-top nonsense, which BT mechs are not shielded from

40k has been described as using an undefined sliding scale for many editions.

Jervis *did* explain the sliding scale for Epic: Armageddon on the E:A development board as being:
45cm = 2KM (Lascannon)
60cm = 3KM (Warlord Titan Turbo Laser and Gatling Blaster)
90cm = 5KM (Volcano Cannon)

 Gashrog wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

As for weapons, well let us take the Medium Laser as an example. This weapon is roughly the equivalent/slightly better than the Lascannon except it has a longer range.

Erm. Battletech has a stated game scale of 30 metres her hex, both the Medium Laser and the AC/20 have a maximum range of 9 hexes, which gives a maximum effective range of 270 metres..

one problem is that both games make no attempt to keep game scale true relative to the environment. all the ranges in 40k or battletech are just sections of typical game tables is all so the longest range weapons can hit most anything on a diagonal of a game table and the short range weapons are just fractions of that.

none of this makes sense anyways because most of todays military sniper rifles have an effective range of 800m and a top end sniper rifles for range have a range of 1500m++. makes no sense that a laser thousands of years in the future or an autocannon on a giant robot has a third of the range than a guy with a 308 winchester today lol. not to mention modern main tank guns today are all 2000m+, they measure armor penetration at 2km. and ground to ground antitank missiles today are what 5km range?

but like if every model on a game table could hit every other model that would be pretty stupid right

edit, oh ya, the common 50 cal machine gun on a tripod is a 2000m weapon...

 master of ordinance wrote:

Gashrog you also seem to have missed out on the Extended and LOS rules. The ranges given are the close effective ranges of the guns, weapons can fire out to twice the listed range whilst dealing slightly less damage than usual and beyond that they can fire as far as they can see, dealing very little damage.

Ahh my bad, so an Clan Extended Range Large Laser could inflict reduced damage out to half the range of a Battle Titan's Turbolaser?

kburn wrote:
Its pretty hard to compare. One is hard sci-fi, and the other one is more fantasy-like.

Eh... heh heh. 40K has more pure fantasy but neither is anything like "hard" scifi. Both have nonsense tech, though I guess BattleTech makes a bit more effort to rationalize it. It's futile but they try for the few seconds anyone needs to see it's just giant Anime battlerobots IN SPACE!

kburn wrote:
For the sake of fun, I'd say the 40k side will win, because they have more over-the-top nonsense, which BT mechs are not shielded from

But to be fair this is a good point - 40K is so saturated with over-the-top crap that it doesn't even stop to look what it hit until it it has to stop cold at hitting a Star Wars level shield (or getting hit with one of the guns that SW shield stops).

Battletech is a game of absurd weapon systems that wouldn't last against weapons we possess right now. Others have pointed out the pathetic ranges on their weapons. And their dinky Robotech missiles that do very little damage. It's even more guilty of this trope than 40K, imo.

It's really not. 40k has chainswords. Let's not talk about which is more realistic.

 Melissia wrote:
It's really not. 40k has chainswords. Let's not talk about which is more realistic.

Neither are realistic at all. But the short ranges in battletech and the utter dominance of aerospace fighters make their whole genre a joke.

 Gashrog wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Gashrog you also seem to have missed out on the Extended and LOS rules. The ranges given are the close effective ranges of the guns, weapons can fire out to twice the listed range whilst dealing slightly less damage than usual and beyond that they can fire as far as they can see, dealing very little damage.

Ahh my bad, so an Clan Extended Range Large Laser could inflict reduced damage out to half the range of a Battle Titan's Turbolaser?

A Turbolaser which has a range of what? Half the Clan ERLL at best?

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Gashrog you also seem to have missed out on the Extended and LOS rules. The ranges given are the close effective ranges of the guns, weapons can fire out to twice the listed range whilst dealing slightly less damage than usual and beyond that they can fire as far as they can see, dealing very little damage.

Ahh my bad, so an Clan Extended Range Large Laser could inflict reduced damage out to half the range of a Battle Titan's Turbolaser?

A Turbolaser which has a range of what? Half the Clan ERLL at best?

Clan ER Large Laser long range 19-25
25 x 30 = 750m
750m x 2 = 1.5km

Since GW has never given any info regarding modern 40k's 'sliding scale' I am ignoring it (I'm also ignoring Battletroops, wherein you could whittle a Battlemech's armour away with Submachinguns..)

During the development of Epic: Armageddon Jervis described it's scale as:

Although 30cm = @1KM, I've also assumed a sliding scale. This isn't nailed down hard and fast (Epic is a game not a simulation), but it works something like this:

15cm = @250m

30cm = @1KM

45cm = @2KM

60cm = @3KM

75cm = @4KM

90cm = @5KM

150cm = @10KM

300cm = @30KM

Interestingly, this means that the closer you get to the enemy, the slower you move, as the ground scale increases but the speed with which you cross it does not. Which happens to be quite realistic in an abstract sort of way, as formations do move much more slowly the closer they get to the enemy. Of course it also means that terrain features can grow and shrink in size, but lets not talk about that

Best regards,

Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic

The final game gives Turbo Lasers a (effective) range of 60cm, which according to Jervis' scale is 3km..

Addendum:
The thing is Battletech and 40k are the same in that neither have changed their baselines to reflect the near-swapping of the settings.
Battletech was originally a near-post-apocalyptic setting, it outright stated that most advanced technology had been lost and that mechs could only be salvaged not built, which explains the crappy weaponry and armour. Titans on the other hand were introduced back in the days when even Ork Buggies had powerfields by default. Despite changes to the general setting Titan's haven't changed at all, and whilst Battletech has introduced new advanced tech it's deviation from the baseline is along the lines of Napoleonic War muskets vs Crimean War muskets rather than Muskets vs Assault Rifles.

 master of ordinance wrote:
As for weapons, well let us take the Medium Laser as an example. This weapon is roughly the equivalent/slightly better than the Lascannon

Based on what? Do you have examples of medium lasers and lascannons effectiveness against a target that would be available in both settings?

Are you familiar with the term headcannon?

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 Melissia wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Number of weapons is not the same as weapon effectiveness.

Nor is it the same as weapon ineffectiveness.

It's not but a titan can be packing weapons which are individually larger than than a whole assault mech...

Lets not forget that a medium sized titan is 4x the size and 10x the weight of an assault mech.

Just to put it out there, laser weapon systems we have now -- like the ones the US Navy is testing and wants to deploy -- have an effective range over 1500m

You'd think we'd be able to do better in thousands of years!

Pretty sure none of the writers would realize how far in technology we would come, to be fair.


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Assuming neither IP existed yet, and they were just coming up with the ideas now, the weapon ranges would probably be stupidly high.

I'd say 40k Titans vary more in height. Just the Warlord itself, ranges from "Hab Block" size to "holy gak is that thing bigger than a mountain".

Scott-S6 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

100t mechs are typically extremely well armed with a multitude of weapons that make titans look pretty lightly armed in comparison.

Number of weapons is not the same as weapon effectiveness.

40K titans are MUCH heavier - a warhound which is roughly the same size as a 100 tonne battlemech is around 400 tonnes. This would imply much more armour (and lets not forget void shields).

Yeah, but... a Warhound is, in tactical and power terms, roughly equivalent to a 35-ton Adder light mech. If we're saying a Medium Laser is equivalent to a Lascannon, then a CERPPC feels right to be compared to a Turbo-Laser.

Likewise, neither are capable of standing up to larger 'mech types alone, but with correct tactics or running in pairs (as both are known to do), they can harass a Heavy (or Warlord-class) mech/titan right into the grave.

But the Adder is smaller, lighter, more maneuverable (Warhounds don't have torso twist capability I believe). It might even be faster.

Scott-S6 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
As for weapons, well let us take the Medium Laser as an example. This weapon is roughly the equivalent/slightly better than the Lascannon

Based on what? Do you have examples of medium lasers and lascannons effectiveness against a target that would be available in both settings?

Are you familiar with the term headcannon?

Sure, it's what happens when you swap the Flamer out on an Adder.

Scott-S6 wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Number of weapons is not the same as weapon effectiveness.

Nor is it the same as weapon ineffectiveness.

It's not but a titan can be packing weapons which are individually larger than than a whole assault mech...

Lets not forget that a medium sized titan is 4x the size and 10x the weight of an assault mech.

Which is really more of a problem than it is an advantage. Weapons achieve penetration by focussing force onto a small area. A macro-cannon shell is more likely to knock an Atlas on its arse than destroy it... and that macro-cannon's never going to be able to track fast enough to actually pin down and hit a Light.

Last I checked a Clan ER PPC had a range just under that of the Clan ER Large Laser which as already pointed out has a maximum effective range of half that of a Turbo-Laser.

 Gashrog wrote:
Last I checked a Clan ER PPC had a range just under that of the Clan ER Large Laser which as already pointed out has a maximum effective range of half that of a Turbo-Laser.

How so? My almost-mint Rogue Trader book still tells me that 40K ranges is two metres for a tabletop inch. I've seen nothing to change that. And ofc, it does explain why anyone has any chance of reaching close combat. With ranges in hundreds of meters no one wants to charge you, but if your opponent's primary weapon has a range of fiftty meters (That's a bolter) and you only have a knife, well...

You already agreed that direct comparisons were pointless. In terms of battle effectiveness, if a Medium Laser is S9AP1, then an ERPPC pretty much has to be a Destroyer weapon.

Yes, the ranges on Battletech weapons are utterly pathetic, I will give you that (MWO, which attempts to be as direct a translation of the TT game as it can, gives the ERPPC a range of 1.6km, with an effective range of only 810m).

The weapon ranges of 40k are equally silly. You have main infantry weapons with an effective range of 50m, and main tank guns with an effective range of 400m... while the Basilisk has a 'real life' range of 3.6km, according to TT stats (which of course becomes 15km in novels).

Turbo-Laser Destructor under modern 40k has a rough maximum range of 650m.