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The math is going to be variable depending on a lot of factors (CT, doctrines, buffs, etc.), but I’d still take my chances. You are going to miss 1/3 of the time. Depending on how tough the flyer is, you might not even get a HP. Obviously paper flyers like the crimson hunter have more at risk. Personally, I have risked single flack missiles. And more serious fire, but a lot depends on the tactical situation. Jinking basically gives them a mission kill for one turn. Sometimes I’d rather go for full function when I needed it, and risk being shot down, then trying for the safe bet, and not impacting the battle

For the price of a 5 man tac squad with a flack ML, you could have a stalker. Formations make it easier to get the tac squad into a list, granted. But the AA formation is not that many points, and not a bad option if you need to get an aux for the gladius.

But for a TAC list, I’m a huge fan of the Talon. Harder to work into formations, but a very versatile option.

a stalker gets shaken, or destroyed a lot faster but sure.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
Don't have the rules at hand at the moment, but couldn't the Land speeder designate enemy flyers for the talons? I don't Remember how the rule is specifically worded. If I am correct, that would make this formation just uber at killing air targets.

The phrasing is weird, but I think that is what Saythings is saying. Even when not used for AA, Raptor Wing is still good.

It gave me a reason to run my Land Speeders if nothing else. I did change them to Assault Cannon Speeders as a result though.

Sorry about the confusion.

What I was trying to say was the formation is great for two reasons:

The first, you get 2 Talons at the earliest possible turn, Turn2.

The second, the speeder, RAW, can "nominate" any target, flying or not. So you have two Talons shooting at BS4 in the sky with Tank Hunters and Shred (pseudo version). The speeder can shoot at any target they want at that point. The nominated target is not the speeder shooting target. If the enemy army does not have a flyer, the speeder simply nominates something else and now the Talons shoot at BS5 with Tank Hunters and Shred (pseudo).

I don't run flyers in my Gladius as I run a 11 droppod heavy list, but if I did, this formation would definitely be up there as a great AA contender. Next to Fire Raptor (with Murder of War: Monster Hunter) and the AA formation with 2 Stalkers and 1 Hunter. Personally if I was running the AA formation, I'd pump the Stalker unit from the minimum of 2 and go for 3 for the ignores cover special rule. If you can't hide the stalkers well, I'd even "sacrifice" the hunter to keep the Stalkers to a 3 count (sacrifice meaning - using it as LOS terrain).

 Jancoran wrote:
a stalker gets shaken, or destroyed a lot faster but sure.

The stalker is 20 points cheaper and is 12 12 10. 5 marines out in the open isn't that hard to kill. You can buy them a rhino to hide in but not the unit is 130 points to fire one strength seven shot. For that cost I can just buy two stalkers.

The new Start Collecting! Skitarii boxed set can be run with its included formation of a Tech-priest (110), a 5-man squad of Vanguard (55), and an Onager with Icarus Array (125). So, for 290 points, you get two, twin-linked S7 shots, five S6 ignores cover shots, and one S7 AP2 shot, all with Skyfire. Plus, if the flyer is within LoS and 18" of the Dominus, you can re-roll all misses.

And it can sucker you into collecting a completely new army TBF, the Skitarii are pretty rad, tho. Get it?! They're RAD! As in they have a special rule called Rad Poisoning, but they're also "rad" in the sense that they're totally cool! Unlike me...

I just bought the Skittari box and it's a great deal, you get an awesome HQ and strong troop and one of the best walkers in the game.

Does the Onager have the option to shoot at ground targets at full BS? Or is it a pure skyfire unit.

300 Points will get you a Raptor Wing formation with a TML/HB speeder and a pair of Skyhammer Stormtalons. You could shave a few points off by skimping on the speeder. If you just wanted to splash a formation into your army, I think it’s a very nice and flexible one.

Of course, from a money spent POV, that skitarri box is quite good. Two talons and a speeder add up to a reasonable amount of cash. Fielding enough stalkers to get the formation/squadron bonuses is also wallet hurting.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
a stalker gets shaken, or destroyed a lot faster but sure.

The stalker is 20 points cheaper and is 12 12 10. 5 marines out in the open isn't that hard to kill. You can buy them a rhino to hide in but not the unit is 130 points to fire one strength seven shot. For that cost I can just buy two stalkers.

Out in the open? Why on earth would they be? Just asking.

 Nevelon wrote:
Does the Onager have the option to shoot at ground targets at full BS? Or is it a pure skyfire unit.

300 Points will get you a Raptor Wing formation with a TML/HB speeder and a pair of Skyhammer Stormtalons. You could shave a few points off by skimping on the speeder. If you just wanted to splash a formation into your army, I think it’s a very nice and flexible one.

Of course, from a money spent POV, that skitarri box is quite good. Two talons and a speeder add up to a reasonable amount of cash. Fielding enough stalkers to get the formation/squadron bonuses is also wallet hurting.

The onagar has main weapons to choose from
Eradication Beamer 9" / 18" / 36" - 10 / 8 / 6 - 1 / 3 / 5 - Heavy 1 / Blast / Large Blast

The Icarus Array - 3 different skyfire weapons - 1 with interceptor, 1 with ignore cover

Neutron Laser w/ Cognis Heavy Stubber
Cognis heavy stubber
36" - 4 - 6 - Heavy 3, Cognis - allows you to fire snapshots at bs2
Neutron Laser
48" - 10 - 1 - Blast, Concussive

Or the
Heavy phosphor blaster
36" 6 - 3, Heavy 3, Luminagen - allows you to lower cover by 1 on a target that suffers an unsaved wound or glancing/pen hit.

So you magnetize it and it can fulfill multiple roles.

Also can add an other heavy stubber turret, close combat weapon that X2 str and gives IWND, smoke launchers and a Mindscanner probe - When charging friendly units within 6", chargers do not get bonus charge attacks unless charged unit was already locked in combat or Gone to Ground.

Even if they are in cover killing 5 guys in power armor isn't that hard. The big problem is that they have to pay for the flakk missiles on top of the ML. If they were built in for 15 points I would be down with it but at 25 per weapon it's to much for my taste given that marines have other options.

 Nevelon wrote:
Does the Onager have the option to shoot at ground targets at full BS? Or is it a pure skyfire unit.

It is dedicated Skyfire, with the twin-linked AC also having Interceptor. However, the volume of mid-S shots, plus the ability to re-roll misses as part of the formation does mitigate the problem of snap shooting at ground targets a little. It's probably not the absolute best solution for AA, but as you said, the value on the boxed set is really good so I thought it worth throwing out there.

don't forget it gets full BS at skimmers as well, which are fairly common units.