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 the_Armyman wrote:
Might be worth posting in YMDC, but as I understood it, the dataspike was a single attack--separate from other attacks the model makes (like a servo-arm)--at I10. I'm fairly certain it cannot be lumped into the total attacks the model makes for the purposes of gaining special abilities.

I don't actually understand what you mean here.

Ok, here is a dumb question...
How come that stalker has 4+ cover save and 2+ in cover, when played in convocation?
Tried to find an answer, but found none, or I didnt understand. Can someone explain it to me?

Belsibub wrote:
Ok, here is a dumb question...
How come that stalker has 4+ cover save and 2+ in cover, when played in convocation?
Tried to find an answer, but found none, or I didnt understand. Can someone explain it to me?

Canticles of the Omnisiah apply to both Cult Mechanicus and Skitarii in War Convocation. Therefore Ruststalkers can get stealth and shrouded for 2+ cover in cover and 4+ out in the open

Thank you for quick reply, so there was a "simple" answer.

 ultimentra wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Plus, Infiltrators with Taser Goads and Flechette Blasters do a jaw-dropping amount of damage.

They have the POTENTIAL to do that, in the right circumstances.

I have ten+ games of war convocation under my belt, and that "potential" damage has always been higher than what my Rust Stalkers do. Infiltrators are the superior unit against 95% of targets. I can't think of any situation where I would rather have Rust Stalkers than Infiltrators besides fighting shooty terminators or something with a 2+ armor and a very crappy invuln save with few attacks.

What the unit does in War Convocation is irrelevant. Playing War Convocation is not, IMO, the same as playing Skitarii or Cult Mechanicus.

When it comes down to it? It lines up precisely with what I said. Infiltrators have the POTENTIAL to do a "jaw-dropping amount of damage" when you're fighting specific enemies or someone doesn't know what they can do.

Without those checkboxes being met or the benefits that Shroudpsalm and the various Canticles give them? It's a very different ballgame.

I play Decurion against my buddy's War Convocation quite a lot. His Ruststalkers and Infiltrators tend to be the MVPs
To the OP, as others have said, the shrouded and stealth canticle is fantastic at keeping them alive, and I struggle to think of many units in the game that can deal with them once they are in CC.
Of course their bane is str6 and/or ignore cover shooting en masse. So against tau or eldar it's probably not worth even putting them on the table

 the_Armyman wrote:
Might be worth posting in YMDC, but as I understood it, the dataspike was a single attack--separate from other attacks the model makes (like a servo-arm)--at I10. I'm fairly certain it cannot be lumped into the total attacks the model makes for the purposes of gaining special abilities.

This was my interpretation as well.

Another case of extremely poorly written rules on the part of GW. You have write rules like as if lawyers play your game and give specific examples for everything. Because when you don't, this happens. I think I'm going to ask the folks at ITC for a ruling. The book states "when a model equipped with this weapon makes melee attacks, it makes an additional attack with this weapon at the Initiative 10 step." This to me implied that it was 1 (additional) attack at initiative 10 with the Prehensile Dataspike's profile. The rest of the attacks would use the regular weapons profiles.

What the unit does in War Convocation is irrelevant.

No, it is not irrelevant in the slightest. They play similar roles if you are fielding mono skitarii, or skitarii + cultmech. They are simply not as good at performing those roles outside of War Convocation.

Playing War Convocation is not, IMO, the same as playing Skitarii or Cult Mechanicus.

You're right here, it isn't. It is extremely similar in that you are using all of the same units in much the same manner as you would with War Convocation. The army as a whole takes on a different style of play.

When it comes down to it? It lines up precisely with what I said. Infiltrators have the POTENTIAL to do a "jaw-dropping amount of damage" when you're fighting specific enemies or someone doesn't know what they can do.

You aren't addressing the point I made at all, you aren't refuting my claim that Infiltrators are superior, and you aren't citing any evidence. All you are doing is restating the same thing you said before, congratulations you have essentially done nothing but retype what you already have typed. I've already replied to your statement once that against 95% of targets infiltrators are superior. Raw stats, rules, abilities, and my personal experiences with playing the army (both in War Convocation and otherwise) point to this. So yes, technically every unit in the game from grots to wraithknights have the "potential" to do "jaw dropping amounts of damage" but saying that doesn't do anything. It doesn't make any kind of tangible argument, you're literally just saying it because you want to feel like you won an argument or something. I don't really understand what your point is supposed to be, that Rust Stalkers are somehow superior because they have a greater potential in your opinion? Because you would be wrong.

Without those checkboxes being met or the benefits that Shroudpsalm and the various Canticles give them? It's a very different ballgame.

The exact same can be said for Rust Stalkers, Dragoons, and just about every other unit available to the admech. Playing War Convocation is like playing a steam roller, playing mono Skitarii is like playing a glass cannon alpha strike army, and playing mono Cult Mech is, well, I don't actually know anyone that does this. It sounds horrible.

Care to try this again? Or are we done trying to argue the whole, Rust Stalkers are superior to- or just as good as- Infiltrators thing?

 ultimentra wrote:
Another case of extremely poorly written rules on the part of GW. You have write rules like as if lawyers play your game and give specific examples for everything. Because when you don't, this happens. I think I'm going to ask the folks at ITC for a ruling. The book states "when a model equipped with this weapon makes melee attacks, it makes an additional attack with this weapon at the Initiative 10 step." This to me implied that it was 1 (additional) attack at initiative 10 with the Prehensile Dataspike's profile. The rest of the attacks would use the regular weapons profiles.

I'm starting to see your point, but I still think this rule is very ambiguous. "When a model equipped with a weapon that has this special rule makes Melee attacks, it makes an additional attack with this weapon at the Initiative 10 step." It can be read both as "it makes an additional attack to other attacks with this weapon" and "it makes an additional attack to the attacks made with other weapon". I based my understanding on the rulebook specifically banning the use of 2 or more Melee weapons in close combat («If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows – he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons»).

Of course advanced rules can override basic ones but it is not clear whether it is the case or not. I would say that it is a question for FAQ but GW does not bother about FAQs nowadays.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Plus, Infiltrators with Taser Goads and Flechette Blasters do a jaw-dropping amount of damage.

They have the POTENTIAL to do that, in the right circumstances.

Statistically, they do significantly higher damage than Ruststalkers against most things.

I did the math and couldn't believe it at first. I thought I'd made a mistake.

S6 Shock is very very good.